Kurkistan

@Darnam An interesting theory. It might even be true, under some interpretations of this quote: Source: @Claincy I think we're all fine with various people having varying levels of life force: it's just that the fluctuation should center around the same value no matter what planet you're on. So the average Nalthian is just a "lifey" as the average Scadrian As to the WoB: I find it to be fairly strongly implying an equality of life force, myself. I linked to that thread instead of the quote in the interview database because directly after Voidus' post we go on to have a discussion about the quote's meaning. I think I rather handily "won" that discussion, if I do say so.

I can't see how it can be read to get us to that conclusion, I must say.

Right you are. I had forgotten those bits.

The discussion I linked to investigates that question. We do have a bit of WoB, though its meaning is contested.

@Moogle The interactions certainly matter so far as detection goes. It matters whether a Seeker can detect you, or any other "detection" magic. You make several good points, Moogle, and I may well have been too fast to dismiss your first post. I need to think on this... EDIT: @Claincy NINJAA!!! I think we may need to rather violently disagree here, then. I would hold that the "life sense" of 1-Breath Nalthians is exactly the same as that of any person on any other shardworld. Brandon modeled it after the fact that people in the real world feel like they can "sense" others' presences, and I doubt for artistically-related reasons that Brandon would ever have the entire population of one of his worlds (read: Nalthis) be inherently different from that of the others, let alone strictly better.

I didn't misunderstand you, though looking back I see that it looks like a I did. I get that you were talking about different things with how life sense worked (detecting Breath, as it would seem) as opposed to how "normal" "sensing of Investiture" would work. And it's even plausible that normal people are able to detect Investiture on some level. I was just making sure that we were on the same page so far as the strength of our beliefs go. EDIT: Although... We might need to have a discussion about the nature of "breath sense" as relates to the "natural" life-sensing abilities of humans in the rest of the cosmere. Would a Scadrian be able to "sense" a drab? An Awakener a Duralumin ferring?

Answer to the question: Yes. Vin "hears" Clubs when she's kandra-scouting, so I would say that he's always still sending off the pulse to anyone sensitive enough to sense it. EDIT: Though, to be fair, there was a fair amount of discussion about "ping" theories of Allomantic bronze over on the other thread. In that case, the answer could be "no". I hate that question.

@Claincy Remember that there might not even be an "investiture sense." It's not like Iron enhances your innate ability to Pull on metal, or Brass your innate ability to manipulate emotions with your brain. It's a cool idea, but by no means guaranteed. @Darnam/Claincy Another good method is for a Seeker to just walk around with another Allomancer who's burning anything. If you detect their pulses, then you know that you're not in a cloud. Really, I think that Seekers actually just "tune out" their own pulses (like how Tineye's likely tune out their own bodies' sounds), and could learn to listen to themselves if they worked at it. So a Seeker could do the job by himself, I think. @Moogle A good question to raise, but one that I think is fairly easy to answer. There's Investiture, and then there's Investiture. With pulses and emotional allomancy, we're talking about feather-touches that are only detectable in the Spiritual or maybe Cognitive. If those two are feathers, then Iron Allomancy is a sledghammer.

Welcome to the forums! The Admins' diabolical plan to delurk people is working! Why don't you stop by the rules section if you plan to stick around? ()

Yeah, that'd do it. Actually, I want to know Steelhunt

Look on the pages of the site itself for the words that you need. It's not a guessing game. You find the right part of the site and fRR has already changed it to give you the word. Where might one find a page full of rules for the site?

You're right that it's not 100%. I threw in a disclaimer just now. Also, thinking of it, I'm not sure that "absorb" was the best word, as it implies an additive quality. I think of it more like the Smoker "vibrating" as the inverse of the waves s/he wants to counteract. On Allomantic bronze: Interesting thought. Backed up by the fact that Vin got to the point where she heard the Well without burning Bronze. Now this could be because she was "attuned" to it, or it could be that the faculty which she used to detect the Well was attuned to it.

You know what, I thought so too. I was just about to delete my "real" post, but I pushed 'Enter' by accident again!

I've been having some thoughts on Allomantic copper over the months, so I thought it an appropriate time to share my findings. First, most of the relevant evidence that is out there. Evidence: Deductions: The takeaway here is that Brandon has managed to accidentally confirm that Smokers block out all types of Investiture. The fact that Seekers can detect other magics, tied in with the fact that they can't detect anything when Smoked, nails this down despite the RAFO. EDIT: Actually, it's not quite 100%, now that Claincy mentions it I think about it. Technically, a Seeker could be uniquely affected by being Smoked, which affect is unique and separate from the reason why he can't sense other Allomancers who are themselves in Copperclouds. I find that a somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent way for copperclouds to work, but it is a possibility. It also tells us that "life sense" works on the same level as other magic. Other magic which is "the power of creation". This ties the "Spirituality" of life sense to that of Investiture: if we can decide one, that gives us a firm clue as to the other. Copper's universality also narrows down the range of ways that it can work: Now it has to not only block out Allomancy's ripples, but those of all Investiture. It can no longer be posited that Copper somehow uniquely interacts with Allomancers to disrupt Seeking. I also think this lends some additional credence to a rather off-the-cuff theory on this that I've been espousing for a bit now. Main theory: (pirated from another post of mine) Note: This is mostly speculative, though I think it highly plausible. If you want, just ignore this and go about your day happy with the knowledge that Allomantic copper blocks out at least the ripples of all Investiture. Copper is weird. In fact, based on its weirdness, I hereby posit that talk of "clouds" is, in fact, highly misleading for how copper actually works. Given that we know that copper can absorb/negate the Investiture of Rioters/Soothers aiming at the Smoker, as well potentially shield the emotions of others, what if copper actually actively absorbs Investiture, rather than masking it? So the Investiture aimed at a Smoker is absorbed because it's right in the middle of the cloud and/or he automatically defends himself with his absorption-powers, while the "ripples" that Seekers detect are actually comprised of energy themselves, energy which the Smoker can take in and counteract with his own copper-fueled energy, to an extent. So a skilled Smoker would be able to consciously extend the scope of his absorption to include Rioting/Soothing directed at others. This seems to solve a bit of weirdness, since Copper is supposed to be both internal and pulling, yet doesn't seem to do either when you think of a Smoker as actually establishing some miasma of negation, rather than the Smoker's range simply being a measure of how far out he's reaching to absorb stuff. This is backed up, to some extent, to how burning Copper "feels" to Vin: "Vin [burned copper]. The only change was a was a slight feeling of vibration within her" (Final Empire). The Copper, then, seems to change Vin's nature such that she acts against the pulses in the fabric of the universe around her, the same pulses that Bronze detects. This counter-action is not perfect, though, as ripples seem to remain, and her own Copper-burning creates its own ripple that cloud-piercers can detect. "Piercing" a coppercloud, it seems, is thus simply a matter of reading whatever left-overs the Smoker isn't strong enough to eliminate. Pulses that Vin detects through clouds are described in the book as "muffled", and so this would explain that.

@Shardlet A fair analysis. I seriously doubt this theory, particularly given the explicit WoB about healing in the Cosmere that I linked to: "In a lot of my magic systems, dealing with the Cosmere I work into healing as a... Healing you back to the form of yourself that you know yourself as, and the world knows yourself as." This makes most of the healing in the Cosmere follow some Cognitively-guided model. Beyond that, I see little beyond supposition to support any separation of "kinds of healing" based on the Shard the Investiture came from. Allow me to list all of the "healing" magics I can recall at the moment: Feruchemical gold - Return to the form of yourself. Regrowth - Return to the form of yourself, as we saw with the fabrial used on Dalinar and Lift's fumbling success. Resealing - Return to the form of yourself (at least for the permanent kind of Resealing). AonDor - Mixed. Combination of "return to the form of yourself" and a possibly more assertive version. Discussion is ongoing. Divine Breath - Achieve a state of ideal health, to the point of instant mastery of a new body part. -This one is weird, but then again that's why I have a whole theory that discusses it. Which theory complies with the idea of outside guidance flowing from the Cognitive/Spiritual. Shardically, every single one of these systems of healing is from a different source. Heck, Feruchemical gold is technically all from the Feruchemist, so there's that too. --- Also, your breakdown requires that AonDor, of all magics, be Dominion-based, assuming you buy some of my analysis.

I apologize for the confusion. You make a good point about why any training is needed at all. However, I think it might still be a bit more nuanced than just "pour on power" on LIft's part. Perhaps she needs to be sure to aspect and direct that power towards direct, Cognitively-driven healing? I think I'll fall back on Darnam's excellent insight into the parallels between stormlight and Allomantic pewter. If we go forward assuming that the stormlight held by a surgebinder is just acting like Allomantic pewter instead of like Feruchemical gold whenever it heals them, then it seems that we have an answer for why Lift just can't throw stormlight at the kid and have done with it. A simple infusion of stormlight wouldn't get the job done, I don't think. Moreover, Lift doesn't possess a "infuse stormlight into others" Surge, she possesses "Growth." So her stormlight is going to be aspected towards growth of some kind. The training she would need, then, would be to ensure that the "growth-light" she infused into her patients was aspected towards the actualization of Cognitive aspects, rather than "GROW, PLANT, GROW!!!" that it normally produces. Just a few thoughts, I'm not 100% on any of this. Actually, I draw some of my conclusions from another part of Sel: Forging. And that's where I think we can highlight the weirdness of Elantrian healing. One thing to note: I believe that Raoden could have healed Roial with just Aon Ien if he'd had enough time to draw it over-and-over before Roial died and/or if the Aon had been at full strength. That said, I agree that Elantrian magic seems like it can be focussed down to "heal that organ" rather than "heal everything", kind of like the difference between the types of healing in the WoT. Now there are two ways we can go from here: 1) The normal person way. It's possible that all that targeted Elantrian healing is doing is saying "heal this person to their Cognitive specifications insofar as those specifications refer to <AREA OF INTEREST>." In that case, we might have some ground to stand on when saying that Lift needs to focus a bit to get the most bang for her buck with her application of Regrowth. 2) And then there's crazy-theory-interesting land. You see, the two types of healing in WoT are actually of a fundamentally different types. One is just "get better" while the other is "change the body in some specific way". Note that the second type needn't necessarily help the patient, if it's done wrong. -Just a note: I draw the parallels for explanation's sake, not because I think Brandon is deliberately aping WoT in Elantris. I've discussed this in the past, but I will summarize my thoughts here: What if Elantrian healing—at least of certain types—is not actually "healing" as we normally discuss it in the Cosmere, but instead more akin to surgery? So instead of applying "Health-power" to a person and letting their Cognitive aspect guide how it's used, it actually makes brute changes to their physiology such that they are physically a different way? So instead of Cognitive/Spiritual changes that trickle down to the Physical, we get a rather thuggish Physical change that the other two realms just have to deal with. If an Elantrian cures your chronic heart condition, he makes your heart better. AonDor, then, doesn't care about whether your body thinks it has a working heart, because you have one now. --- EDIT: Or, a third way could be that it's a combination of those two. So an Elantrian can either "heal that organ as the Cognitive tells you to" or "Dory, we're fixing that heart," depending on what he wants to do. EDIT 2 (Lots later, 12/10/2013): Option 3 it is, it seems.

Perhaps I misread you, then. I see you as saying that Lift needs to imposer her idea of Gawx's state of health onto his body for her Regrowth to work. What I say, however, is that Gawx's Cognitive aspect is what governs how he is healed, not Lift's. That the patient governs how the healing works, not the healer. So, for instance, if Gawx happened to be missing a toe (for awhile) and Lift didn't know about it (or at least didn't know it had been gone for a long time), the fact that his Cognitive aspect includes him lacking his toe means that her Regrowth wouldn't grow it back. What I read you as saying, however, is that Lift thinking Gawx to have a full complement of digits could result in that toe being grown back.

I must beg to differ on the healer needing to imprint her idea of health on her patient. As I linked to, the idea of what constitutes health is determined by Cognitive aspects; beyond that, the Regrowth fabrial in the Starfalls interlude seemed to work just fine when used by a non-Growth-holding KR.

Here's a fixed link to that interview database quote, Sats. It's all about going to the source Q&A and adding in a '#<number>' for the appropriate post. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#45 Another quote to pile on, as well: As you mentioned, Gloom, stormlight is Investiture. And as Sats has just shown you, metals are most definitely not. The strong implication of all of this is that stormlight is the fuel for surgebinding. This difference is more than "splitting hairs", I think.

What Takeshi said, I would guess.

Well, magical healing in the cosmere isn't just a matter of spurring cell growth. It has to meaningfully interact with Cognitive aspects and other sorts of rather nuanced stuff, so I'd imagine it's a more difficult process to heal someone back to life than to just make a plant "grow" however it may. Also, I agree on her Spider-man abilities. Especially given Darkness' comments about how Edgedancers could run on ropes and whatnot.

Yes... -ish. I'm unsure of this talk of "pressure" that's been floated around as of late, but I see your meaning. It really has nothing to do with the degree to which a belief is "spiritual", though. The fact that gold could plausibly have been adulterated with lead is based on a Form as well. So the KR wearing plate (of a kind) might have some part to play in the formation of a "plate armor" Form, but the nature of the KR as revered holy warriors would have little to do with the process, beyond perhaps that fact leading to more people knowing about them, and then proceeding to form opinions about plate armor.

@Gloom I think you have it right so far as scale goes. I doubt that specific models or compositions would ever leak over, in fact. Forms are all about abstraction from the specific and personal to the abstract and general. @Weiry Yes, I do locate Forms fundamentally in the Spiritual. However, I also have those Spiritual constructs be formed by Cognitively active beings. This leap was then mitigated by the positing of somewhat less distinct Cognitive versions of Forms that serve as middle grounds and intermediaries between people and Spiritual Forms. I would guess that only the more "pure," powerful Spiritual Forms would be able to cross worlds, though.

Well, yes, but that's Sazed talking. Not the Shard's Intent.

By sincerely advocating extremely evil uses of magic. For some reason Hemalurgy keeps coming up...