lirin A theory about Lirin's future

[Vin(Diesel)]

I could very easily be wrong, but I feel like Rhythm of War was setting things up for Lirin to become a Windrunner. It could be a coincidence that it was explicitly stated that a Windrunner could fulfill his oaths as a surgeon and that Kaladin had an intentionally parallel arc to Lirin's in RoW. I guess it's a hunch.

[Letryx13]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And as long as the slaves were treated according to the rules, which Sadeas did not do. They executed a corrupt jailer.

What law exactly did Sadeus break?

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Again, many a spren would tell you that duty is duty. Why you do your duty does not matter, as long as you do it. Pride is a flaw of character, not honor.

Character is part of honor. Doing the right thing because you're obligated to is different from doing the right thing because you choose to. It's actually why I have issues with spren's judgement of humans based on oaths. They can not break them, while complaining that humans do. I wonder if they would, if they had the ability.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Thus defending his honor against slander?

Thus proving other people wrong to satisfy his pride. Why do you think he asked to be reminded of what the surgeon said when he was born?

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If.

Now the laconic answer being given, Taravangian did change. He went to the valley of the Nightwatcher for that specific purpose.

No, Dailinar went to the Nightwatcher to change.  Taravangian went to ask to be given the capacity to stop what was coming. He went for the power to be the hero that saved everyone.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Who should? A monarchical attitude is not necessarily dishonorable and he did allow alternative interpretations, if you had the arguments. He was no petty tyrant.

And yet despite being presented with irrefutable evidence that he was wrong, he refused to admit it. Refusing to admit to your own mistakes is both petty and foolish.

 

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I don't think he could be pushed to fight hes too  stubborn. 

I agree. Plus, there were EdgeDancers that ran the clinic in Uritheru.  And Syl said her old knight spent most of his time traveling, using her to cut aqueducts and storm cisterns. Clearly not all radiants are used for fighting. Lirin would probably take the place of someone more suited to combat.

[Vin(Diesel)]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I don't think he could be pushed to fight hes too  stubborn. 

I didn't mean he would be successfully pushed to fight, only that people would try to make him fight.

Though they might not even do that. I don't think Dalinar would force a pacifist to fight, though that might change if he were really desperate.

[Blackwarder]

Airsick lowlanders, you are all clearly mistaken.

If Lirin is going to bond any spern it will be the Nightwatcher.

And he is going to bond her in the next book (if he ever going to bond a spern).

Quote

 

“Don’t play the sixth fool, Father,” Kaladin said. “You can’t let them take you after this.”
“I can and will!” Lirin shouted, standing up. “Because I will take responsibility for what I’ve done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!”

Excerpt From
Rhythm of War
Brandon Sanderson
https://books.apple.com/us/book/rhythm-of-war/id1489970175
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Bondsmith aren’t as malleable as other radiant, they have a strong moral compass that help them set a path to others, be it Dalinar as a warleader and politician or Navani with her pursuit of technology and the betterment of mankind ( and by the end of RoW sprenkind when I come to think about it), the relationship between a godspren and its Bondsmith requires a very strong will to succeed.

Now, do we know someone who’s interested in healing, have a very strong will and a moral compass you can set Roshars’ magnetic north with it? Enters Lirin.

And having a Bondsmith for a father and Kaladin as a brother will set little Ordeon nicely for the back 5.

Two years from now, you all will either congratulate me or resurrect this thread to make me eat my hat

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Blackwarder said:

Airsick lowlanders, you are all clearly mistaken.

If Lirin is going to bond any spern it will be the Nightwatcher.

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the next sentence after the one you boldened in that quote supports Lirin being a WindRunner. 

[Vin(Diesel)]

I just found this quote in The Way of Kings from Kaladin. "Well, I've only known one man in my life who was a true man of honor. He was a surgeon who would help anyone, even those who hated him. Especially those who hated him." 

That's third ideal stuff right there. 

Wasn't there a Word of Brandon where he said the honorspren had been watching a different member of Kaladin's family before Kaladin, or something like that?

Edited November 11, 2021 by Vin(Diesel)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Wasn't there a Word of Brandon where he said the honorspren had been watching a different member of Kaladin's family before Kaladin, or something like that?

A spren.

And it was a cryptic watching Tien.

[Letryx13]

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A spren.

And it was a cryptic watching Tien.

I figured there was a spren watching Tien.  I think Mraize mentioned another surge binder in Ameram's army, and I thought that it was referring to him. I didn't think it was a cryptic.

34 minutes ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

I just found this quote in The Way of Kings from Kaladin. "Well, I've only known one man in my life who was a true man of honor. He was a surgeon who would help anyone, even those who hated him. Especially those who hated him." 

That's third ideal stuff right there. 

Wasn't there a Word of Brandon where he said the honorspren had been watching a different member of Kaladin's family before Kaladin, or something like that?

I completely forgot that Kaladin mentioned his father helping people, even those who hated him.  Good support for Lirin being a WindRunner, but on the other hand, the townspeople acted like they hated Lirin, I don't think Lirin ever actually hated any of them.

[Vin(Diesel)]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I figured there was a spren watching Tien.  I think Mraize mentioned another surge binder in Ameram's army, and I thought that it was referring to him. I didn't think it was a cryptic.

I completely forgot that Kaladin mentioned his father helping people, even those who hated him.  Good support for Lirin being a WindRunner, but on the other hand, the townspeople acted like they hated Lirin, I don't think Lirin ever actually hated any of them.

The third ideal doesn't have to mention people you hate. It just removes exceptions from the second ideal, which can be the exception of people you hate. 

And you can say, like Kaladin, "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." And when Kaladin discussed with Syl what was right, she didn't have objective answers for him. She just told him it had to be what he, they, thought was right deep down. So if Lirin thinks, deep down, that it isn't right to protect people by killing, then he wouldn't be breaking his oath by remaining a pacifist. Maybe his spren would also have to agree. That isn't clear. 

I love the idea of a curmudgeonly honorspren who goes his own way bonding with Lirin, the curmudgeonly Alethi who goes his own way. I think the honorspren are opinionated enough by nature to include such a spren.

In The Way of Kings, in the scene where Lirin bravely confronts the townspeople who are trying to steal his spheres, it says that his eyes were blazing in the stormlight of the spheres or something. I wish I had the quote. It doesn't say that the stormlight was coming from him, but it was very dramatic about how Lirin was transformed by the stormlight. I wish I could find the quote. It seems like foreshadowing. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Vin(Diesel)

[Blackwarder]

17 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the next sentence after the one you boldened in that quote supports Lirin being a WindRunner. 

Nah, it’s a small p and there is a difference between taking an oath not to do harm and taking one to protect, one is passive the other is more active.

I agree that each and everyone of Kaladins’ oaths have been essentially things his father already told him but that doesn’t mean that Lirin will end up being a Windrunner. Let’s think about it this way, Kaladins’ journey has been the predicted dissonance between the soldier and the surgeon and through that time Lirin has been representing the surgeon in Kals’ psyche. In the end Kal find peace by realizing that they are both right, each in their own way, but they are different.

I highly doubt Lirin will become a Windrunner, storywise it’s redundant and uninteresting, I don’t think that we have time to see Lirin struggle with the fact that sometimes you have to kill in order to protect, and besides I don’t think he is capable of crossing that particular obstacle.

If Lirin will bond a spren I think one of the things Brandon will use him will be to show us how the similar oaths/intentions can be so similar and yet so different that they “click” with other kinds of sprens, sort of like how The Lopen is used to show us that the oaths have dipper meaning that are not the same for each knight within the same order but on the entire spectrum of orders not just within one order.

 

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Blackwarder said:

Nah, it’s a small p and there is a difference between taking an oath not to do harm and taking one to protect, one is passive the other is more active.

I agree that each and everyone of Kaladins’ oaths have been essentially things his father already told him but that doesn’t mean that Lirin will end up being a Windrunner. Let’s think about it this way, Kaladins’ journey has been the predicted dissonance between the soldier and the surgeon and through that time Lirin has been representing the surgeon in Kals’ psyche. In the end Kal find peace by realizing that they are both right, each in their own way, but they are different.

I highly doubt Lirin will become a Windrunner, storywise it’s redundant and uninteresting, I don’t think that we have time to see Lirin struggle with the fact that sometimes you have to kill in order to protect, and besides I don’t think he is capable of crossing that particular obstacle.

If Lirin will bond a spren I think one of the things Brandon will use him will be to show us how the similar oaths/intentions can be so similar and yet so different that they “click” with other kinds of sprens, sort of like how The Lopen is used to show us that the oaths have dipper meaning that are not the same for each knight within the same order but on the entire spectrum of orders not just within one order.

 

Well, I agree Lirin isn't suited to be a WindRunner, but I maintain he's more an EdgeDancer than anything else. 

Also, I like that you used The Lopen's proper title.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

7 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Also, I like that you used The Lopen's proper title.

The proper title is King Lopen the First, airsick lowlander