Can you be a partial Cognitive Shadow?

[+Oltux72]

First things first. The Cosmere has ghosts. When you are healed after your physical death, you are fully restored with your spirtual aspect, so you need to be something in between.

In order to become a Cognitive Shadow your need your soul be substituted with Investiture. I can see no reason this process has to be instantaneous. This implies that it can be interrupted. What happens in that case?

[Frustration]

If you have insufficient investiture you will fail to persist, and pass into the beyond.

Now you might call shades partial shadows, but that's not an interupted process.

[mathiau]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

In order to become a Cognitive Shadow your need your soul be substituted with Investiture. I can see no reason this process has to be instantaneous. This implies that it can be interrupted. What happens in that case?

Note that this is the Vasher interpretation, it's uncertain it's the truth

Quote

your need your soul be substituted with Investiture

I don't like this wording, the Soul is made of Investiture even for a Drab, she can't be be substituted with Investiture, just strengthened. If this process start after the death (we've seen it happen both pre and post death) and is interrupted you'll just end up with an unstable CS that will die after a few hours

[Weltall]

If you have extra Investiture but not enough to 'anchor' yourself you might last longer but you'll still get pulled Beyond. This is what almost happened to Kelsier at the start of Secret History when his being a mistborn let him last longer than most people but he would have been pulled to the Beyond in the end if Preservation hadn't intervened.. I think that if you didn't have enough Investiture on Physical death, started to get the necessary 'extra Investiture' somehow and the process was interrupted you'd get to hang around in the Cognitive Realm for a bit longer (depending on how much Investiture you had) but you'd eventually pass on unless you met whatever the threshold is.

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Weltall said:

If you have extra Investiture but not enough to 'anchor' yourself you might last longer but you'll still get pulled Beyond. This is what almost happened to Kelsier at the start of Secret History when his being a mistborn let him last longer than most people but he would have been pulled to the Beyond in the end if Preservation hadn't intervened.

So you are saying that the part that goes to the Beyond stays until the moment a threshold of Investiture is reached and then the transfer is instantaneous and uninterruptible?

If that is so why don't some people stay as they are without anything being replaced by Investiture in the Cognitive Realm?

 

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

So you are saying that the part that goes to the Beyond stays until the moment a threshold of Investiture is reached and then the transfer is instantaneous and uninterruptible?

If that is so why don't some people stay as they are without anything being replaced by Investiture in the Cognitive Realm?

Because that's a lot of investiture, Susebron might, TLR almost certainly could but very, very few indiviuals could.

[mathiau]

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

So you are saying that the part that goes to the Beyond stays until the moment a threshold of Investiture is reached and then the transfer is instantaneous and uninterruptible?

If that is so why don't some people stay as they are without anything being replaced by Investiture in the Cognitive Realm?

The part that goes to the Beyond is the mind. When we saw it happen from Eshonai's perspective it sounded quite instantaneous.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

So you are saying that the part that goes to the Beyond stays until the moment a threshold of Investiture is reached and then the transfer is instantaneous and uninterruptible?

Ummmm, no, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. If you don't have enough Investiture you inevitably get pulled Beyond whether you want to or not and there's some specific threshold that determines when you've reached that point. All we know for sure is that Slivers qualify by default, but even really powerful mistborn don't and neither do surgebinders from all available evidence.

If you're below whatever the threshold is, you may be able to hang around in the Cognitive for a while longer but you will still be inexorably pulled Beyond unless you go over that threshold before your time runs out. We literally see this happen with Kelsier, as he was more Invested than normal people and got a bit more time but he was gonna go Beyond whether he wanted to or not if Preservation hadn't shoved him into the Well. We also know via WoB that if you have less Investiture than normal (say, because someone ripped out a chunk of your spiritweb with hemalurgy) it's going to influence that transition period between 'Physically dead' and 'going Beyond'.

Hence, if you were somehow able to get an infusion of 'extra Investiture' post-mortem but it wasn't enough, you might get to hang around the Cognitive Realm for a bit longer but you'd still be pulled Beyond.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Weltall

[mathiau]

34 minutes ago, Weltall said

Ummmm, no, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. If you don't have enough Investiture you inevitably get pulled Beyond whether you want to or not and there's some specific threshold that determines when you've reached that point. All we know for sure is that Slivers qualify by default, but even really powerful mistborn don't and neither do surgebinders from all available evidence.

Actually, this is exactly what Oltux was saying. If you don't have enough investiture your soul will wither (this is what you call the pull of the Beyound) and at some point your mind will leave your soul and go to the beyond.

[Weltall]

That depends on whether you consider the 'soul' and 'mind' to be the same thing. Brandon himself hasn't been consistent on that point and I tend to think of them as synonymous (with the spiritweb that stays around for longer being more like a persistent echo) but I can see how that would be a point of confusion.

Terminology aside, it's pretty clear that the thinking Cognitive part of you is on a time limit after your Physical death unless you have X Investiture or more.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Weltall

[mathiau]

Just now, Weltall said:

That depends on whether you consider the 'soul' and 'mind' to be the same thing. Brandon himself hasn't been consistent on that point and I tend to think of them as synonymous (with the spiritweb being more like a persistent echo) but I can see how that would be a point of confusion.

I don't remember a moment the soul wasn't the part of the being in the SR and the mind the one in the CR

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Weltall said:

Ummmm, no, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. If you don't have enough Investiture you inevitably get pulled Beyond whether you want to or not and there's some specific threshold that determines when you've reached that point. All we know for sure is that Slivers qualify by default, but even really powerful mistborn don't and neither do surgebinders from all available evidence.

Very well. I think a great part of the problem here is terminology. So please let me define it. Every biologically living being has three components:

1. a body - pretty much selfexplanatory
2. a cognitive component - I would call that the mind. It does the thinking, holds memories and cognitive shadows, unless meddled with, have continuity of thought
3. a spiritual component - I would call that the soul. It goes to the Beyond some time after you die.

Do we agree so far?

Your death is a two stage process

1. Your brain stops working -> Your mind and soul persist together for a time in the Cognitive Realm
2. Your Investiture runs out (or goes below a threshold - details unclear) -> Your soul goes to the Beyond

So far with me? I would call anybody in between stages #1 and #2 a ghost. They can be reincorporated without ill realmatic consequences This happened to Waxillium and Gaux and they are clearly themselves and not Cognitive Shadows.

11 hours ago, Weltall said:

If you're below whatever the threshold is, you may be able to hang around in the Cognitive for a while longer but you will still be inexorably pulled Beyond unless you go over that threshold before your time runs out. We literally see this happen with Kelsier, as he was more Invested than normal people and got a bit more time but he was gonna go Beyond whether he wanted to or not if Preservation hadn't shoved him into the Well.

Right. But what happened in the Well? If we take Brandon's explanation,

RoW

Spoiler

as Vasher defined and explained himself

a Cognitive Shadow is not simply that ghost stage prolonged to infinity. You are changed into basically a spren that was a living being. Hence the question, is that change instantaneous and if not, what are you while the change is in progress and what will happen if the process is interrupted?

[mathiau]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Your Investiture runs out (or goes below a threshold - details unclear) -> Your soul goes to the Beyond

The fact soul damages (like Hemalurgy) almost don't have effect once you're in the Beyound implies it's the Mind that goes to the Beyond.

Quote

Lady Radagu

Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes.

Lady Radagu

Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on?

Brandon Sanderson

So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay?

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

The fact soul damages (like Hemalurgy) almost don't have effect once you're in the Beyound implies it's the Mind that goes to the Beyond.

No, it just means that the SR soul isn't the Beyond Soul.

[+Oltux72]

25 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The fact soul damages (like Hemalurgy) almost don't have effect once you're in the Beyound implies it's the Mind that goes to the Beyond.

But we have seen the death of many hemalurgic constructs from the Cognite Realm in Secret History. The hemalurgy is reversed.

[mathiau]

On 28/09/2021 at 4:06 PM, Oltux72 said:

But we have seen the death of many hemalurgic constructs from the Cognite Realm in Secret History. The hemalurgy is reversed.

I was talking about people who had part of their Souls removed but Hemalurgy not hemalurgic constructs

[apepi]

I mean arguably how someone is invested, makes them 'partial' cognitive shadows, like Brando talks about how to become a radiant your mind/whatever has to be partially broken and you fill the broken part with investiture.

[+Oltux72]

15 hours ago, mathiau said:

I was talking about people who had part of their Souls removed but Hemalurgy not hemalurgic constructs

I see. We have never observed that. I'd say that questio boils down to the exact nature of the spiritweb about which we know even less.

[Fezzik]

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I see. We have never observed that. I'd say that questio boils down to the exact nature of the spiritweb about which we know even less.

We have in WoB. This is the answer:

Spoiler

Questioner (on behalf of Yata)
When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson
If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours--

Questioner
The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die--

Brandon Sanderson
Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

Questioner
Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or--

Brandon Sanderson
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1528

To the "middle parts" of this

Spoiler

Lady Radagu
Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient?

Brandon Sanderson
That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes.

Lady Radagu
Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on?

Brandon Sanderson
So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7232

 

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Fezzik said:

We have in WoB. This is the answer:

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1528

 

Yes, that is indeed the answer. So hemalurgy damages your cognitive aspect (if you are the donor).

On 28.9.2021 at 3:39 PM, mathiau said:

The fact soul damages (like Hemalurgy) almost don't have effect once you're in the Beyound implies it's the Mind that goes to the Beyond.

In light of this WoB I cannot understand this conclusion. As you are affected in the CR, it is strongly implied that hemalurgy destroys your mind, which is made of Investiture, which you subsequenly lack in the ghost state.