Shallan sucks

[GroundPetrel]

On 9/15/2022 at 10:10 AM, Almarenco said:

For instance, if anyone would understand everything she does covertly, including her brother's secrets is Jasnah, and she knows this, yet still chooses to lie to her. I understand her lying to everyone else, I understand her past trauma, and I could even get on board (if with some difficulty) with her deliberately giving herself a dissociative personality disorder, but lying to Jasnah?

Dude, I lie to my therapist and family all the time.  Sometimes on purpose, sometimes because my brain selectively edits my easily-accessible memories so that I don't talk about the really difficult stuff in therapy. 

Getting past that is something I've been desperately trying to work on for years with mixed results. 

So I totally understand Shallan there. 

[lindir]

On 6/23/2021 at 1:22 AM, embisk said:

Ok so opening up I just want to say I recognize the 'appeal' Brandon was going for with her character.  Her feminine strength is something that is lacking in a lot of female protags over the years, and she does have a traumatic backstory.  Her naivete and lightheartedness are both testaments to her character's mental strength and fortitude to remain through all her hardships. 

That being said,  both those traits also make her the most ignorant, detestable, and unbearably annoying character in the entire Archive.  Despite how smart she's supposed to be, and no matter how many times she points out a problem she might run into she still messes up and makes the story miserable. Most of her problems so far (I just finished Oathbringer), are completely caused by her and her own ineptitude to deal with her problems without whining about her daddy and mommy issues.  I don't care if she killed everyone in her hometown with a knife, Hatred itself is invading the world while all the gods are gone and there's a massive power struggle between the major nations of the world.  Suck it up, and quit masking your insecurity with crappy quips. God don't get me started on the quips. Every time this woman opens her mouth, whether its to say something to Pattern privately or to any Brightlord publicly, I wish she never did.  I get it, she's 'clever.'  That shouldn't mean slontzey though.  A smart, clever character can and be written so much better.

To those who still wanna play the "woman strong" card, I'd advise looking at Navani or Jasnah.  Both are extremely clever, strong, and independent despite it being in different ways.  Jasnah's quips are crappy digs but intellectual pokes, tailored to the conversation perfectly.  Navani is perhaps the most powerful woman in Alethkar.  Despite her status as the Queen Regent, she was able to maintain a very powerful position in the Alethi court through her intellectual prowess.  I'd highly advise Shallan to gather her thoughts and return to the story once she quits her crying and slontzeing every second.

 

TL;DR - Shallan is a loser; I wish she wasn't so important to the story; The other women in the story are so much better and should be more important.

I concur.
I never liked Shallan. Shallan is just dumb and boring. half of the time she's just b*tching and whining abt sh*t.
I do like Jasnah tho. She's cool and badass.

My fav POC is and will always be Kaladin.
God I just love his arc so much. Not even Dalinar's is remotely close to how good Kalandin's arc is.

[lindir]

Shallan's arc felt like an afterthought, not a diss against Sanderson tho. that's just how I felt.
Shallan's personality is bland, and her actions and choices were always so predicatable.
oh god i used to hate her but now i just counldn't care a bit abt her in any way.
she is as good as dead to me.

[Almarenco]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:50 PM, GroundPetrel said:

Dude, I lie to my therapist and family all the time.  Sometimes on purpose, sometimes because my brain selectively edits my easily-accessible memories so that I don't talk about the really difficult stuff in therapy. 

Getting past that is something I've been desperately trying to work on for years with mixed results. 

So I totally understand Shallan there. 

The fact it might track in real life doesn’t mean it works for narrative fiction. I get it, I have GAD and Depression. Have been medicated now for 6 years and I know it is a lifelong battle with ups and downs, but narratively, seeing a character fight the same battle 4000 pages in a row is exhausting to read, and when said character is lying (not to the therapist and not just to her friends but to herself) it makes her hard to empathize with. So narratively she is problematic, and this is a work of narrative fiction first and foremost, if it does have strong undertones of psychological problems. However, even putting that aside, on the real world psychology front she is also shown in a problematic/hard to believe way, I am no therapist, but far as I know, you cannot decide to consciously give yourself Dissociative Identity Disorder. That is something that happens to you unconsciously, you don’t consciously choose like: “I don’t like this memory and can’t deal with this situation so I’m going to choose to make up a persona named Radiant and hope she becomes a real separate person, and she can deal with that rust” - so clearly her mental issues were designed less to give a true representation of mental illness and more to force the plot in a desired predetermined way, which again, is just not great, and makes he hard to enjoy while reading, at least for me.

[Telperion he/him]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:33 PM, CamilleDesmoulins said:

I honestly kind of dislike Shallan because of how she treats other people. Except for her relationships with her brothers, who barely feature in the present day, all her relationships are all take and no give. She meets Kaladin by stealing his boots, never properly apologizes for that, and then decides to oogle him while he's in the middle of a catatonic episode. She begins her relationship with Jasnah by planning to steal from her and then demands she continue to take her on as an apprentice. She endangers poor people in Kholinar by playing Robin Hood and then immediately forgets about them, and never tries to help the poor again. Even her relationship with Adolin is based on him providing emotional support for her. 

This is how I feel as well. I dislike Shallan due to the fact that she uses others like tissues and throws them away when she's done. She has loyal people on her side that want to help (Adolin) but rather than letting them help she seems to do everything possible to push them further away. And don't get me started on the multiple personalities... I know that's a real situation that people deal with but I hope in the next book she can learn to work despite that. Her regression in RoW was heartbreaking and EXTREMELY difficult to read. 

She has so many similarities to people I have known that have treated me like dirt that its difficult for me to rationalize her mistreatment of others for her sole gain. 
The difference between her and Moash to me are very similar. Very self-centered due to trauma, that is sad. But no excuse to treat those that love and care for you like garbage.

I also feel like she was a slog to read due to all the issues that were going on in our world when the book was released. It was just bad timing for a brittle character in my opinion.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Sorrowsprenslaugh

[Ridan]

Yes yes yes all this. 

Everytime I realise i have to force my way trhough another Shallan slog I just pray I will get to listen som to Pattern. He is basicly the only thing making her chapters survavibal. 

Basicly her every chapter is. Who will she betray of fail in this chapter? Is there a stupid choise to make then you will know pre happening thats what she will do. Can she hurt someone she likes thats the action the will take. 

Bah I just hope she gets killed off soon so Pattern can get someone usefull to tag along. 

[Immortal Platypus]

On 6/22/2021 at 11:22 AM, embisk said:

That being said,  both those traits also make her the most ignorant, detestable, and unbearably annoying character in the entire Archive

See, I've been thinking that the entire time I've been reading SA. I was so happy I wasn't the only one when I saw this thread. I get why Brandon made her the way he did and why she still is that way, but I still absolutely despise reading her perspectives and wouldn't be saddened if Brandon killed her off (though I have friends and Shallan is their favorite character).

On 6/22/2021 at 0:07 PM, ScadrianTank said:

I don't enjoy reading Shallan's chapters

Me neither, you're not alone there. They always feel kind of pointless to me and I always think either, "Get back to Kaladin" or, "Get back to Dalinar."

On 6/27/2021 at 0:51 AM, Frustration said:

Shallan is just annoying, she never actually does anything exciting, and takes time away from the people that are

I agree. That is where I am mentally when I read her chapters.

Again, I'm not saying this to demean mental health struggles, I just genuinely hate reading her character and don't like her as a character either.

[SymphonianBookworm she/her]

Shallan isn't a good person for the way she treats others. She's downright rude to a lot of people who only mean well. When's the last time she's said something not trying to be witty? I understand that it might be her defense mechanism, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to mistreat others. I just despise her, ever since I started reading the series.

[Spearguy]

10 hours ago, SymphonianBookworm said:

Shallan isn't a good person for the way she treats others. She's downright rude to a lot of people who only mean well. When's the last time she's said something not trying to be witty? I understand that it might be her defense mechanism, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to mistreat others. I just despise her, ever since I started reading the series.

My good man, these complaints fit just as well with Kaladin, or Hoid. It is a big part of human nature to lash out when you feel pain, when you've never lashed out at anyone then we can talk.  

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:57 PM, ImportantQuestions said:

though I have friends and Shallan is their favorite character

Being a person who does think Shallan is a good character and adds to the books. yes shes rude brash and sometimes straight up mean, Shallan being rude is just how she is and such but her point of view is one of my favorites to read especially since at the beginning of the series when it delves slightly deeper into the history and the lore of the Cosmear and Roshar

[Immortal Platypus]

56 minutes ago, spirit, said:

but her point of view is one of my favorites to read especially since at the beginning of the series when it delves slightly deeper into the history and the lore of the Cosmear and Roshar

I see what you mean, but I personally hate reading her chapters because she never actually does anything. I only read her chapters because things happen around her and because those are the best ones to see Wit/Hoid and the only perspective I can see Pattern.

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

1 minute ago, ImportantQuestions said:

those are the best ones to see Wit/Hoid

Shallan also seems to be one of the few people who can actually understand and fight back when wit makes his great comments 

[Immortal Platypus]

3 minutes ago, spirit, said:

Shallan also seems to be one of the few people who can actually understand and fight back when wit makes his great comments 

It's funnier when Wit's comments completely fly over their head though. And when Shallan fights back, her insults/comments are rarely even funny. It's mostly Wit's responses that are funny

Edited October 26, 2022 by ImportantQuestions

[Spearguy]

Also something that I want to mention and want to know if anyone has seen this. The three main POV characters each struggle with a part of the first Ideal, Kaladin thought the series with depression and nearly commits suicide multiple times, this is until he learns to cherish the time he has with those he loves. Dalinar eventully understands that the ends never justify the means after looking at his own past and that actions of Taravangian. Last but not least Shallan hides away her pain burying it deep inside until her aspects give her the strength to overcome it.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Spearguy said:

My good man, these complaints fit just as well with Kaladin, or Hoid. It is a big part of human nature to lash out when you feel pain, when you've never lashed out at anyone then we can talk.  

Kaladin genuinely takes care of people. When Bridge four was struggling to draw Stormlight he went to Hobber and gave him personal instruction. He takes care of anyone who comes to him. Hoid gives stories and inspiration to people who need it. What has Shallan done?

1 hour ago, spirit, said:

Shallan also seems to be one of the few people who can actually understand and fight back when wit makes his great comments 

Not really. Renarin is the only one to truly hold his own.

[Spearguy]

Just now, Frustration said:

Kaladin genuinely takes care of people. When Bridge four was struggling to draw Stormlight he went to Hobber and gave him personal instruction. He takes care of anyone who comes to him. Hoid gives stories and inspiration to people who need it. What has Shallan done?

1 hour ago, spirit, said:

She was the one to give those deserters a second chance. 

[Frustration]

Just now, Spearguy said:

She was the one to give those deserters a second chance. 

Because she was forced to.

If the army of bandits hadn't been there and she required more men she would never have done that. And then she practically ignores them for the next month.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Not really. Renarin is the only one to truly hold his own

When did renarin interact with wit? Or hold his own ... against anybody? I don't remember

[Returned he/him]

18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

When did renarin interact with wit? Or hold his own ... against anybody? I don't remember

It was one of the feasts in the warcamps. Wit is insulting people, and asks Renarin if he can speak yet say nothing ridiculous. Renarin responds by saying "nothing ridiculous", which seems to surprise and impress Wit.

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

When did renarin interact with wit? Or hold his own ... against anybody? I don't remember

7 hours ago, Returned said:

It was one of the feasts in the warcamps. Wit is insulting people, and asks Renarin if he can speak yet say nothing ridiculous. Renarin responds by saying "nothing ridiculous", which seems to surprise and impress Wit.

It's on the Greatshell hunt in TWoK Ch 15:

Spoiler

 

Wit shrugged. “I point out truths when I see them, Brightlord Sadeas. Each man has his place. Mine is to make insults. Yours is to be in-sluts.”

Sadeas froze, then grew red-faced. “You are a fool.”

“If the Wit is a fool, then it is a sorry state for men. I shall offer you this, Sadeas. If you can speak, yet say nothing ridiculous, I will leave you alone for the rest of the week.”

“Well, I think that shouldn’t be too difficult.”

“And yet you failed,” Wit said, sighing. “For you said ‘I think’ and I can imagine nothing so ridiculous as the concept of you thinking. What of you, young Prince Renarin? Your father wishes me to leave you alone. Can you speak, yet say nothing ridiculous?”

Eyes turned toward Renarin, who stood just behind his brother. Renarin hesitated, eyes opening wide at the attention. Dalinar grew tense.

“Nothing ridiculous,” Renarin said slowly.

Wit laughed. “Yes, I suppose that will satisfy me. Very clever. If Brightlord Sadeas should lose control of himself and finally kill me, perhaps you can be King’s Wit in my stead. You seem to have the mind for it.”

Renarin perked up, which darkened Sadeas’s mood further.

 

There was also a scene in Ch 12, but that was when Renarin was trying to avoid Wit.

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

It's on the Greatshell hunt in TWoK Ch 15:

Shoot, I was so sure it was the first feast that when I thought about checking, I figured "nah, you can skip looking this one up". Thanks for the correction, and keeping me honest 

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Returned said:

Shoot, I was so sure it was the first feast that when I thought about checking, I figured "nah, you can skip looking this one up". Thanks for the correction, and keeping me honest 

No worries - the first feast was the first one I mentioned where Adolin says Renarin has decided to avoid talking in front of Wit to avoid mockery.

[Cone Slice]

Not to hate on Sanderson, but Shallan is a below "ok" character for me. Her quips get on my nerves, and she has the humor of a 9 year-old. For instance, in Words of Radiance, she would make jokes relating to people's breath. It wasn't just once but multiple times that she made that same joke. Hopefully she'll be better in OB and RoW because I haven't read those yet. 

[hitkay]

7 minutes ago, Cone Slice said:

Not to hate on Sanderson, but Shallan is a below "ok" character for me. Her quips get on my nerves, and she has the humor of a 9 year-old. For instance, in Words of Radiance, she would make jokes relating to people's breath. It wasn't just once but multiple times that she made that same joke. Hopefully she'll be better in OB and RoW because I haven't read those yet. 

BrandoSando isn't very good at writing quippy or snarky humor, so with Shallan, you kind of just have to take it for granted that the characters find her much funnier than you will. Words of Radiance is probably the book with the most focus on it, though.

[Spearguy]

42 minutes ago, Cone Slice said:

Not to hate on Sanderson, but Shallan is a below "ok" character for me. Her quips get on my nerves, and she has the humor of a 9 year-old. For instance, in Words of Radiance, she would make jokes relating to people's breath. It wasn't just once but multiple times that she made that same joke. Hopefully she'll be better in OB and RoW because I haven't read those yet. 

If you have only read up to words of radiance then don't worry, Shallan gets a lot better.