Your opinions on the Child Champion theory

[Bejarden he/him]

3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

For those that are such strong believers in the child champion theory, can you explain how it plays out in any kind of satisfying or fulfilling way? I understand that there's some support in the books for why it could possibly happen. But what I still haven't seen is any kind of explanation of how it would be good storytelling. And I think there have been a lot of explanations of why it wouldn't be.

K I’ll do that once I get the time I’m to busy to write anything that is longer than like 6 lines

But first! What’s your idea of who the champion is and why that will be narratively just

[+mdross81 he/him]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

K I’ll do that once I get the time I’m to busy to write anything that is longer than like 6 lines

But first! What’s your idea of who the champion is and why that will be narratively just

I'm not certain exactly who I think it will be.

My best guess, if we are to take at face value Rayse's claim during the negotiation of terms that he already knew who his champion would be, would be a Fused (maybe El?)

And I think that has interesting ramifications for a contest to the death because there's thorny issues surrounding what constitutes death for Fused, and because it would potentially involve a need to figure out how to make more anti-Light which I think is going to be a big deal.

Other than that, I could see Nale as an option because to me he exemplifies the ways in which Honor, taken to the extreme, can go wrong.

I've seen some interesting arguments for Gavilar as well, although I don't think the groundwork has been laid properly for that.

[Jofwu he/him]

22 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would he think “ oh so I’ll go and kill everyone by myself since you have no one else now

"everyone by myself" is an exaggeration.

How many hundreds of people did Dalinar kill in his mortal lifetime under the relatively minor influence of the Thrill? How can he not assume that he will be personally responsible for the death of thousands over the course of centuries?

Millions is maybe an extreme estimate, on my part. But I don't think we need to go that far to make my point. And I also don't think it's an unreasonable possibility. Dalinar wouldn't be some low-tier grunt Fused. Dalinar is the kind of person who shapes the future. He might only kill on the order of thousands, but I think it's downright likely that that whole battles and military campaigns would swing one way or the other due to his involvement. There's a reason Odium was happy to settle with just him as his prize.

[Bejarden he/him]

3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I've seen some interesting arguments for Gavilar as well, although I don't think the groundwork has been laid properly for that.

I will admit that Gavilar is a better option than Gavinor but as you said there is very little groundwork

 

4 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Other than that, I could see Nale as an option because to me he exemplifies the ways in which Honor, taken to the extreme, can go wrong.

He’ll just kill Dalinar in 2 seconds with his Heraldness

 

3 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

How many hundreds of people did Dalinar kill in his mortal lifetime under the relatively minor influence of the Thrill? How can he not assume that he will be personally responsible for the death of thousands over the course of centuries?

 

One of my possibilities  for this which I have written in my lengthy theory that I’ll eventually post is that he’ll actually make sure he’s killed with Nightblood so he won’t become a Fused. 

Its not a good answer and I kinda hate it but it is small possibility. 

 

6 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Millions is maybe an extreme estimate, on my part. But I don't think we need to go that far to make my point. And I also don't think it's an unreasonable possibility. Dalinar wouldn't be some low-tier grunt Fused. Dalinar is the kind of person who shapes the future. He might only kill on the order of thousands, but I think it's downright likely that that whole battles and military campaigns would swing one way or the other due to his involvement. There's a reason Odium was happy to settle with just him as his prize.

I do not understand why Dalinar is such a prize personally. Dalinar never hit me as a good general and a sane fused would be much better. I’m just confused why that makes sense.

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 28.4.2021 at 0:56 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

He literally had a conversation where Dalinar said he would refuse to kill innocent people to save others from dying. ( I’m pretty sure that’s what the Conversation is about)    He would be completely sure that Dalinar wouldn’t kill Gavinor

The Alethi have a very negative view on treason. Gavinor, as he raises his sword against his country, is no longer innocent. He would be a traitor. Age does not matter. He would be willing to fight against Alethkar.

[Karger he/him]

On 4/27/2021 at 7:14 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

@Szeth_Pancakes Two things 1: Part of the contract is that both Chanpions are left unharmed 

That only means they cannot directly interfere with each other's candidates not that both of them are invincible.  Ishar and the GBs are still around and I would not put it past Jasnah to drug Dalinar to prevent this exact scenario.

My only other point is a response to the "Gavinor must be here for a reason" argument.  He had a purpose in OB and could have another one in the back half.  Brandon does not have to use him at this exact moment.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Karger

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 4/29/2021 at 0:44 PM, Green chicken said:

Taravangian doesn't care about the "spirit of the contract", if the the child says yes, then to him it's fair game. The contract never specifies that coercion is not allowed, therefore it is allowed. Legally, if you are manipulated into entering a contract, then the contract is binding. For example, parents threatening to disown their children if they don't enter a contract, is not illegal.    

Legally, if you are manipulated into entering a contract, then the contract is almost certainly not binding. There are numerous defenses to contract formation, especially if you have been manipulated into entering it; a contract doesn't have to specify that coercion isn't allowed, just like how a contract doesn't have to specify that you're not supposed to break the law to perform it--being coerced into signing a contract specifically would fall under the defense of entering into a contract under duress. Your example about parents threatening to disown their children if they don't enter into a contract may not, necessarily, be illegal--it's kind of ambiguous--but it almost certainly wouldn't be a valid contract.

Source: I am a lawyer.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 4/30/2021 at 0:11 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes. Yes it is, children are exceptions to the rule but they still can be the Champion through dirty tricks

 

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 4/27/2021 at 6:58 PM, Sp00ks said:

In addition to Jofwu's points on how it doesn't work narratively, it also doesn't work logically. I know others have made this point before, but even if Dalinar absolutely refused to kill Gavinor or whomever, its still a fight to the death. This is problematic in two ways. First of all, Gavinor's a kid, sure, but he isn't an idiot. He probably grew up hearing stories about the dreaded Blackthorn. Why the heck would he ever agree to fight a man like that? Even with all the Odium influence in the world, surely he would be too afraid to agree. And even if he did, how would he win, even if Dalinar won't kill him? There's no way he would just let himself be killed, he swore "...Life before Death". He can't give up, again, its a fight to the death. Do they just wait until one of them dies of thirst? Just doesn't make sense

Actually... I'm wondering if this might actually be what TOdium is thinking. I can't remember where I initially saw this theory, but someone pointed out that the agreement between Dalinar and Odium sets terms for what would happen if Dalinar (or his champion) wins, and for what happens if Odium's champion wins, but it doesn't set terms for what happens if neither champion wins, if the contest ends in a draw. So that might be the loophole TOdium is planning on exploiting: send in Gavinor as his champion, he can't possibly hurt Dalinar and Dalinar refuses to kill him, and the contest ends in a draw, invalidating the pact and giving TOdium freedom to act.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

Actually... I'm wondering if this might actually be what TOdium is thinking. I can't remember where I initially saw this theory, but someone pointed out that the agreement between Dalinar and Odium sets terms for what would happen if Dalinar (or his champion) wins, and for what happens if Odium's champion wins, but it doesn't set terms for what happens if neither champion wins, if the contest ends in a draw. So that might be the loophole TOdium is planning on exploiting: send in Gavinor as his champion, he can't possibly hurt Dalinar and Dalinar refuses to kill him, and the contest ends in a draw, invalidating the pact and giving TOdium freedom to act.

it's first to die, so even if it worked, which it won't because gavilnor is too young, Dlainar would lose due to age.

If Odium wanted to void the contract, he should try to get the Radiants to attack his champion.

[Bejarden he/him]

2 minutes ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

Actually... I'm wondering if this might actually be what TOdium is thinking. I can't remember where I initially saw this theory, but someone pointed out that the agreement between Dalinar and Odium sets terms for what would happen if Dalinar (or his champion) wins, and for what happens if Odium's champion wins, but it doesn't set terms for what happens if neither champion wins, if the contest ends in a draw. So that might be the loophole TOdium is planning on exploiting: send in Gavinor as his champion, he can't possibly hurt Dalinar and Dalinar refuses to kill him, and the contest ends in a draw, invalidating the pact and giving TOdium freedom to act.

Well this would not be a scenario for a draw, because whoever dies of hunger first loses

Dalinar has to refuse to fight and end the contest and/or kill himself to save Gavinor

If he only refuses to fight I theories that would let Taravangian free

If he kills himself I don’t think TOdium would be opposed to it

Here is how I see it:

If Gavinor is the Champion Dalinar has three options

1: Kill Gavinor

2: Kill himself

3: End the Contest

If he picks #1 Taravangian doesn’t care about the Singers so that wouldn’t bother him, and Dalinar would probably give in to his inner Blackthorn undoing the OB climax and go to TOdium willingly

If he picks #2 Taravangian still doesn’t care that singers and humans split, and he gets the Blackthorn even if unwillingly

If he picks #3 The singers get the land TOdium goes free and Roshar is in real danger along with the rest of the Cosmere

Either way Odium Reigns

[Green chicken]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

it's first to die, so even if it worked, which it won't because gavilnor is too young, Dlainar would lose due to age.

If Odium wanted to void the contract, he should try to get the Radiants to attack his champion.

Odium could send a suicide bomber, who would kill both Dalinar and themselves. It is almost certain that there will be a loophole, Brandon threw wrote the epilogue to build up Taravangian as a dangerous foe, it would make no sense for Brandon to undermine the expectations that he built up in the epilogue. Rayse was a terrible villains in row, due to his incompetence. In Oathbringer his strategy for the battle of the thaylen field was a good plan, the only reason he lost was because he underestimated Dalinar. Brandon has built up Taravangian as a competent villain, the contract is so vague that it is full of potential loopholes, it would make no sense for such a competent villain to miss the loopholes.  

[Frustration]

Just now, Green chicken said:

Odium could send a suicide bomber, who would kill both Dalinar and themselves. It is almost certain that there will be a loophole, Brandon threw wrote the epilogue to build up Taravangian as a dangerous foe, it would make no sense for Brandon to undermine the expectations that he built up in the epilogue. Rayse was a terrible villains in row, due to his incompetence. In Oathbringer his strategy for the battle of the thaylen field was a good plan, the only reason he lost was because he underestimated Dalinar. Brandon has built up Taravangian as a competent villain, the contract is so vague that it is full of potential loopholes, it would make no sense for such a competent villain to miss the loopholes.  

The loophole should also be something intresting and exciting, not something that per polling data a majority of the fans are opposed to.

a Child Champion would ruin the entire book, suicide bombing would result in one of them dying first, even by just a few instants.

[Bejarden he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

a Child Champion would ruin the entire book, suicide bombing would result in one of them dying first, even by just a few instants.

That is subjective 

I think it can be done amazingly, and frankly a classic duel just makes no sense to happen

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

That is subjective 

To an extent

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I think it can be done amazingly, 

You're in the minority there.

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

and frankly a classic duel just makes no sense to happen

It's what we've been building towards since WoK, and personally something I really want to see, the amount of fighting in SA is crimminally low.

[Bejarden he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

It's what we've been building towards since WoK, and personally something I really want to see, the amount of fighting in SA is crimminally low.

You still haven’t explained why TOdium would let everything lie on a duel between the strongest man on Roshar and someone else and say “Dalinar set himself up to fail”

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

To an extent

It is literally the meaning of subjective 

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

You're in the minority there.

Not relevant

I assume a majority of people also wanted Rlain to bond the Sibling 1:2 through RoW

 

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

You still haven’t explained why TOdium would let everything lie on a duel between the strongest man on Roshar and someone else and say “Dalinar set himself up to fail”

I don't think he will, just that any attmpts he makes to void the contract will either apply during/after the duel itself, or will fail.

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Not relevant

I assume a majority of people also wanted Rlain to bond the Sibling 1:2 through RoW

A majority is a stretch on that, some did others did not, him being a Windrunner would be closer, and a Radiant was definetly the large majority.

[Bejarden he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

I don't think he will, just that any attmpts he makes to void the contract will either apply during/after the duel itself, or will fail.

Same problem you always quote with CC

all that build up and then “hey I found this cool loophole before you started fighting...so I guess you better go home”

Thats not setting up to fail, that’s just stupid

anyway we won’t get anywhere with this as per usual

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Same problem you always quote with CC

all that build up and then “hey I found this cool loophole before you started fighting...so I guess you better go home”

Em, no. There is a huge difference to the antagonist being smart and the protagonist refusing to do something.

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Thats not setting up to fail, that’s just stupid

Why does it need to be setting up to fail? And what's stupid about it?

[Bejarden he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Em, no. There is a huge difference to the antagonist being smart and the protagonist refusing to do something.

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I outlined the 3 options Dalinar could do and whatever he did he fails

whether he kills, surrender, or dies 

 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

Why does it need to be setting up to fail? And what's stupid about it?

That’s what Taravangian says in his chapter

Its Anti-Climactic with no character development of meaning 

[Green chicken]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's what we've been building towards since WoK, and personally something I really want to see, the amount of fighting in SA is crimminally low.

First of all, Vin was built up as the hero of ages in Mistborn, even though she wasn't the hero of ages. Second off all, 3 out of the 4 SA books had fight scenes as the climax. 

[Bejarden he/him]

1 minute ago, Green chicken said:

First of all, Vin was built up as the hero of ages in Mistborn, even though she wasn't the hero of ages. Second off all, 3 out of the 4 SA books had fight scenes as the climax. 

Not to defend Frustration but...

1: We still got the Hero and Vin did ascend 

2: Out of 5000 pages there’s like 100 pages of fighting, not even 

it’s a small amount

[Green chicken]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why does it need to be setting up to fail? And what's stupid about it?

In chapter 114 Taravangain literally realizes that Rayse's plans are flawed, and that he missed certain possibilities.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The loophole should also be something intresting and exciting, not something that per polling data a majority of the fans are opposed to.

a Child Champion would ruin the entire book, suicide bombing would result in one of them dying first, even by just a few instants.

It would be impossible to determine the winner in that case, which would the contract void.  

[Bejarden he/him]

1 minute ago, Green chicken said:

It would be impossible to determine the winner in that case, which would the contract void.  

A Shard could

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I outlined the 3 options Dalinar could do and whatever he did he fails

whether he kills, surrender, or dies 

Going to Odium after killing relies on him undoing OB. Surrender is him refusing to do something my problem, and suicide is out of the question simply due to the messaging.

9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That’s what Taravangian says in his chapter

Yeah because of how the contract was built, Dalinar proposed it and there is something to exploit.

9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Its Anti-Climactic with no character development of meaning 

A huge battle while the most calculating and manipulative being we know plays three dimnetional chess with the hero's rushing to stop what's happening in the background without violating the contract, while Dalinar fights on the foreground, and both of them needing to succed is anti-climactic?

What does Character  Development have to do with anything Dalinar already had his in OB.

7 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

First of all, Vin was ****

Spoilers,

and

Spoiler

She basically was, cool powerset and everything, from a purely narative standpoint she might as well have been.

 

7 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

Second off all, 3 out of the 4 SA books had fight scenes as the climax. 

Should have been all four in my opinion

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Not to defend Frustration but...

1: We still got the Hero and Vin did ascend 

2: Out of 5000 pages there’s like 100 pages of fighting, not even 

it’s a small amount

Thank you.

Just now, Green chicken said:

In chapter 114 Taravangain literally realizes that Rayse's plans are flawed, and that he missed certain possibilities.

And?

1 minute ago, Green chicken said:

It would be impossible to determine the winner in that case, which would the contract void.  

Odium can see Axi, it would be unreasonable to assume he wouldn't know who died first

@Bejardin1250 beat me to it.