Theory - Why the Ghostbloods want to find Ba-Ado-Mishram

[+mdross81]

I don't remember seeing this theory elsewhere, but if I've inadvertently repeated what someone else has said, my apologies.

So, the Ghostbloods are trying to figure out (actually, they claim to have already figured out) the trick for exporting/converting Stormlight as part of their cosmere-wide commercial ambitions (and maybe to help out a certain stubborn cognitive shadow). And at the end of RoW, Mraize tried to task Shallan with finding Ba-Ado-Mishram. I think you can see where this is going. What if the Ghostbloods haven't figured out the trick so much as they've discovered that someone else knew the trick. What if Ba-Ado-Mishram knew, or had figured out, the trick for converting one form of Investiture to another? Let's say, maybe converting Stormlight to Voidlight?

This theory might help explain the False Desolation, during which BAM was able to connect with all of the Singers and provide them with forms powered by Voidlight. We've never gotten an explanation of how she was able to provide the Voidlight. In present-day Roshar, the only way to get Voidlight seems to be directly from Odium by singing the Song of Prayer. And from the way Ulim described BAM's downfall to Venli, it doesn't sound like Odium was on board with what BAM was doing. That makes me doubt that she got the Voidlight directly from Odium. But she did still have a strong Connection to Odium. Presumably she still has a Connection to Honor as well, and Stormlight's freely available in every highstorm. So, perhaps BAM found a way to convert that into Voidlight.

I think this also fits fairly well with most of the theories I've seen trying to tease out the linguistics of BAM's name:

Ba - I've seen this as either "child of" or "soul of"

Ado - likely means "light," but I've also seen suggestions that it could refer to Adonalsium or to divinity in general

Mishram - I've seen this separated out into Mish (as in Mishim, the moon associated with Cultivation) and Ram (related, via linguistic drift and forced symmetry, to "merem" which means honor) (hat tip to @LewsTherinTelescope). Alternatively, I've theorized that it might be based on the Sanskrit word "misra" which refers to a mixed song.

Add to the above, the fact that when BAM was imprisoned the Sibling lost the ability to hear Honor's tone, and we can start to get a pretty good sense of at least the concepts that are associated with BAM and may have given her her name. It seems likely BAM has something to do with a mixing or combination of Honor's and Cultivation's lights/tones/Investiture. And upon being Unmade by Odium, we can then throw Odium's light/tone/Investiture into the mix as well. From there, it doesn't seem a far cry to suggest that BAM may have been able to convert one form of Light into another.

In the end, the Ghostbloods' pursuit of the leaders of the Sons of Honor seemed to really be about getting to Restares (Kalak). Why? Because he was there when BAM was imprisoned and therefore might have some information about where to find her. And why do they want to find her? Well, I think it just might be because she knows the secret to converting Investiture from one form into another.

Bonus theory taking this a step farther: what if, in addition to converting between different Lights, BAM had also figured out anti-Lights? Maybe that's the real reason BAM was imprisoned. Because of how dangerous anti-Light is. This might also help to explain where Gavilar got his sphere of anti-Voidlight.

Anyway, let me know what y'all think.

[Bejarden]

52 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I don't remember seeing this theory elsewhere, but if I've inadvertently repeated what someone else has said, my apologies.

So, the Ghostbloods are trying to figure out (actually, they claim to have already figured out) the trick for exporting/converting Stormlight as part of their cosmere-wide commercial ambitions (and maybe to help out a certain stubborn cognitive shadow). And at the end of RoW, Mraize tried to task Shallan with finding Ba-Ado-Mishram. I think you can see where this is going. What if the Ghostbloods haven't figured out the trick so much as they've discovered that someone else knew the trick. What if Ba-Ado-Mishram knew, or had figured out, the trick for converting one form of Investiture to another? Let's say, maybe converting Stormlight to Voidlight?

This theory might help explain the False Desolation, during which BAM was able to connect with all of the Singers and provide them with forms powered by Voidlight. We've never gotten an explanation of how she was able to provide the Voidlight. In present-day Roshar, the only way to get Voidlight seems to be directly from Odium by singing the Song of Prayer. And from the way Ulim described BAM's downfall to Venli, it doesn't sound like Odium was on board with what BAM was doing. That makes me doubt that she got the Voidlight directly from Odium. But she did still have a strong Connection to Odium. Presumably she still has a Connection to Honor as well, and Stormlight's freely available in every highstorm. So, perhaps BAM found a way to convert that into Voidlight.

I think this also fits fairly well with most of the theories I've seen trying to tease out the linguistics of BAM's name:

Ba - I've seen this as either "child of" or "soul of"

Ado - likely means "light," but I've also seen suggestions that it could refer to Adonalsium or to divinity in general

Mishram - I've seen this separated out into Mish (as in Mishim, the moon associated with Cultivation) and Ram (related, via linguistic drift and forced symmetry, to "merem" which means honor) (hat tip to @LewsTherinTelescope). Alternatively, I've theorized that it might be based on the Sanskrit word "misra" which refers to a mixed song.

Add to the above, the fact that when BAM was imprisoned the Sibling lost the ability to hear Honor's tone, and we can start to get a pretty good sense of at least the concepts that are associated with BAM and may have given her her name. It seems likely BAM has something to do with a mixing or combination of Honor's and Cultivation's lights/tones/Investiture. And upon being Unmade by Odium, we can then throw Odium's light/tone/Investiture into the mix as well. From there, it doesn't seem a far cry to suggest that BAM may have been able to convert one form of Light into another.

In the end, the Ghostbloods' pursuit of the leaders of the Sons of Honor seemed to really be about getting to Restares (Kalak). Why? Because he was there when BAM was imprisoned and therefore might have some information about where to find her. And why do they want to find her? Well, I think it just might be because she knows the secret to converting Investiture from one form into another.

Bonus theory taking this a step farther: what if, in addition to converting between different Lights, BAM had also figured out anti-Lights? Maybe that's the real reason BAM was imprisoned. Because of how dangerous anti-Light is. This might also help to explain where Gavilar got his sphere of anti-Voidlight.

Anyway, let me know what y'all think.

I’m not sure what to think about this I’ll have to spend more time on it...

But, why would the GB want to change Stormlight to Voidlight. Stormlight can be used for everything Voidlight can allegedly what would be the market advantage of it.

Also if BAM would have figured out A-Light wouldn’t the Fused know?

 

[+mdross81]

9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

But, why would the GB want to change Stormlight to Voidlight. Stormlight can be used for everything Voidlight can allegedly what would be the market advantage of it.

I probably should have been more explicit that I’m talking about converting one form of Investiture to another more generally (as in the process and how to deal with Connection/Identity issues) not necessarily specifically Stormlight into Voidlight.

12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Also if BAM would have figured out A-Light wouldn’t the Fused know?

 

Maybe? They weren’t around in the False Desolation though, so maybe not if that’s when it was figured out. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I don't see why she'd need to convert Light. We've already seen 2-3 big spren produce Light of their respective Shards (the Stormfather, the Sibling, and maybe the Nightwatcher but that's a weird one because the WoB confirming the presence of Lifelight in the Valley refers to a nonexistent green mist, so it's hard to know). And whatever her origins, Ba-Ado-Mishram is presumably mostly of Odium by now, so it makes sense she'd make Voidlight were she to learn the trick to producing it.

I'm also not sure how converting it would help get it offworld?

I agree they're likely after her powers as part of this scheme one way or another, though.

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Alternatively, I've theorized that it might be based on the Sanskrit word "misra" which refers to a mixed song.

Interesting, I can't find anything on this anywhere. Do you have more info?

[+mdross81]

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Interesting, I can't find anything on this anywhere. Do you have more info?

Here’s a link to a sanskrit dictionary entry for misra, https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/macdonell_query.py?qs=मिश्र&searchhws=yes

That one just defines it as “mixed.”

Also, here’s my earlier post which contains a link to the usage of misra as mixed song:

It was actually your response to that post where I got the Mish & Ram interpretation so thanks.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Here’s a link to a sanskrit dictionary entry for misra, https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/macdonell_query.py?qs=मिश्र&searchhws=yes

That one just defines it as “mixed.”

Now that is very interesting.... And according to Wiktionary, it was borrowed into English as the last name.... Mishra. Hm.

13 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Also, here’s my earlier post which contains a link to the usage of misra as mixed song:

Well then apparently I did see this before and just forgot that part, my bad, lol

That is.... very very interesting. Great catch!

Edit: @mdross81 Brandon's confirmed that some Alethi names are based on Sanskrit, and it's usually intended to indicate a connection to the Dawnchant. The plot thickens....

Quote

LordWetbeard

When I first started reading Stormlight, I couldn't help but notice how similar Kaladin's name is to the Latinised forms of some Middle Eastern names, such 'Saladin', 'Saphadin', 'Nurudin', 'Meledin', etc. Initially, I just scratched it off as an interesting observation until I reached the point in WoR where we learn that Rock calls Kal, 'KalaDEEN', rather than 'KalaDIN'.

Today, many people outside the Middle East pronounce to 'Saladin' as 'SalaDIN'.

But in the Middle East, people would pronounce it with a 'DEEN' just like Rock would. Did Brandon intend for us to think of this? Maybe not, but...

The Latinised forms of these names are more condensed compared to the Arabic forms of the names:

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

This isn't a coincidence. Many Alethi names come from Arabic, Hebrew, or sometimes Sanskrit origins. I devised Kaladin specifically by mashing up names like Khalid and Saladin--among others. The ones you can pick out are, generally, intended to be names with Dawnchant origins. Not to imply actual Earth connections; the point here is the same one I make when using ancient Latin or Greek roots to create magic term words.

The idea is that in world, these names might actually be slightly different--but in translation, we use words that evoke the same feelings as they'd have in world. (Indicating, in this case, some names have roots that trace all the way back to original Dawnchant names and terms.) 

General Reddit 2019 (April 17, 2019)

Edited April 20, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+mdross81]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Edit: @mdross81 Brandon's confirmed that some Alethi names are based on Sanskrit, and it's usually intended to indicate a connection to the Dawnchant. The plot thickens....

Wow. I don’t think I’ve seen that WoB before. Nice catch.

[mathiau]

9 hours ago, mdross81 said:

In the end, the Ghostbloods' pursuit of the leaders of the Sons of Honor seemed to really be about getting to Restares (Kalak). Why? Because he was there when BAM was imprisoned and therefore might have some information about where to find her. And why do they want to find her? Well, I think it just might be because she knows the secret to converting Investiture from one form into another.

Actually it was because Kalak was about to figure how to worldhop as a CS and Thaidakar wants to know how to do that

[Honorless]

Good theory, @mdross81! The Ghostbloods, and Thaidakar in particular, wouldn't just want to free Ba-Ado-Mishram for the distant possibility that she might want to defect from Odium, like they claim for wanting to recruit Sja-Anat. There's so little about Mishram that is still known, why would they bet anything on such a distant possibility, there's definitely more to it.

Oh, there's so many good theories about Ba-Ado-Mishram nowadays (I'm so looking forward to both her and Dai-Gonarthis).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Wow. I don’t think I’ve seen that WoB before. Nice catch.

Oh man, it gets even better. Shared the theory on the Discord server to get more thoughts, and someone (after some grumbling that the connection completely passed them by) said that, if they remember right, then when used as a subject in a sentence, the stem "mishra" would actually be "mishram". ("Singular nominative/accusative case" was what they said, but I had to google that, so I just put what a search said it means instead, lol.)

Edited April 20, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+mdross81]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Oh man, it gets even better. Shared the theory on the Discord server to get more thoughts, and someone (after some grumbling that the connection completely passed them by) said that, if they remember right, then when used as a subject in a sentence, the stem "mishra" would actually be "mishram". ("Singular nominative/accusative case" was what they said, but I had to google that, so I just put what a search said it means instead, lol.)

Collaboration for the win!

If we run with this interpretation of Mishram for a second, and take into account the WoB suggesting that it might trace back to the Dawnchant, I’m curious whether that would change your view of how to interpret Ado in the name. I mean, the question presumes that all three components of the name existed then, which is by no means certain, but do you think it would make it more likely to refer to Adonalsium than to light?

If so we could be looking at a meaning along the lines of the soul of adonalsium’s combined song. Which would be pretty interesting in light of what Brandon has said about Roshar being created in a specific way by Adonalsium.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

If we run with this interpretation of Mishram for a second, and take into account the WoB suggesting that it might trace back to the Dawnchant, I’m curious whether that would change your view of how to interpret Ado in the name. I mean, the question presumes that all three components of the name existed then, which is by no means certain, but do you think it would make it more likely to refer to Adonalsium than to light?

I think it would refer to light still, but that said word for light might still trace back to Adonalsium