Some of my Issues with Kaladin through the SA

[AirsickAviar he/him]

18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Roshone was a little justified in what he did 

Lirin did steal the spheres and lie to him and he probably was also a little angry at what happened to his son Roshone has the right to be angry for this for this and he struck the only way he could. While horrible, Lirin did bring it on himself by stealing the spheres and acting so cold toward Roshones son

His action had nothing to do with spheres (but Kal should pay that now too, but at this point in the story, that all would be pointless). His justification was that Lirin 'let him lose his own son', wrongfully, so he went out to try and remove Lirin's son. By forcing him into a draft in which wasn't needed, and he was obviously a poor choice for, and didn't even let others sub in to get the quota instead of Tien, which Kal offered to do.

Now this isn't direct murder, I've said as much. But in this case, it is a case of severe and delibrate negligence, so it could be negligent homicide. Or at the very least, manslaughter. He was involved enough in putting him in harms way, something he knew he was doing, and if he had any sense to look into the matter like a person in such authority SHOULD do, knew he would be one of the least likely to make it. He did it anyway, because he was angry. So yeah, that blood IS on his hands. And given his mindset, and given what he already did with Moash's grandparents? Yeah, I am very suspicious he wouldn't have done it anyway, if someone gave him a time machine and showed him that it would happen. In fact, at that point in time, it would have made him smile in all likelihood. It was an act of revenge on him, misplaced. And Kal is totally right to blame him. Maybe not as an outright murder, but as someone who still deserves some punishment for it.

[Aspiring Writer]

3 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

to feel a righteous sense of justice to try and get some sort of revenge for that, from Dalinar, Adolin, even Kalodin there.

those were the people betrayed, of course they want justice,  and they are revolutionaries among Alethi society. The other highprinces were not bothered nearly as much.

 

5 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Roshone broke no law, but what he was seen doing would still have a similar reaction, even from that cultural dynamic.

Not really. they send children to be near the battlefield. This wouldn't be seen as anything different. He was just a messenger boy.

 

6 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

This was not done well.

I disagree. I think you are wanting something that isn't needed. He still holds a grudge against Roshane and thinks he's a terrible opinion. Following it up now of all times is impractical and useless, and Roshane has shown improvement, which even kaladin has to admit. And remember, Syl does get annoyed at kaladin for holding a grudge in RoW, giving him a sting. She's not going to stop him disliking him, but she is definitely going to be irritated for him for being petty.

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

I actually agree with this, and understand it. It is more a criticism of my take on the writing, wearing down the story, not the reality of these sorts of mental health issues themselves. While someone who truly went through some of that sort of stuff in real life, might in fact NEVER be over it to any satisfactory way. But since we need him to get over some stuff in a narrative sense, none of us I think, save for some small subset of readers, will be interested in reading a 20 book scifi fiction on someone's bouts with depression to finally win over it. Some might, but after awhile, it just grated on me. It has nothing to do with whether I think him getting over it was realistic. In fact, I think in this specific case, the book sped it along beyond what I think most real people would do. But over the course of some 4 books, and the same near predictable, but more importantly, frustrating responses, that weighs down the whole thing for me. I suppose I just am not into those sorts of stories.

I have respect for that, willing to sacrafice acuracy for the sake of story even from your own troubles.

I disagree that it hurts the story, but I respect that take.

[Quick Ben he/him]

13 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The main difference of opinion is that this would have been impossible if it was an option he would have done it

He could easily of made him gove up his shardblade in order to ensure Amaram stood trial, don't see how that would cause civil war, would cause a stir and perhaps add fuel to the fire of Sadeas arguments, but civil war ? Don't think so

13 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

No offense but you are being extremely short sighted with his honor.

he has a lot more things to consider than one factor.

None taken, and far from short sighted, if live a code of honour, you can't turn it off an on, thats my point, if you think you can then your misguided in that opinion. There was options Dalinar had but didnt take because "not how its done" whereas he should of set the prescedent.

Besides, if a shardbearer was to stand trial the obvious thing to do is take away hes shards, its actually basic common sense, doesn't require q lot of in depth thought to come to that conclusion.

13 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

But that doesn’t make him less honorable ( or at least he is proportionaly more honorable then a lot of people) 

Considering how unhonourable the Athleti are, the barometer for Dalinar isnt very high

14 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He wasn’t reforged he was melted down. He became a blank slate and then and went, through great pain assumingly and reforged himself from the ashes. That took strength and is growth.

 

What do you mean by this?

 

What pain ? When everything that made him who he was, was gone ? And all that was left was his good side, anything that could lead to Dalinar becoming who he was again was taken away, he didn't do anythinh to become who he became, 

14 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

We all also hate who Dalinar was before. But we’re looking at the endgame here, where each of them ended up though growth you could say.

whether through Shardic intervention or not an honorable man is an honorable man

Hindsight is 2020 but at that time the most ‘honorable’ thing to do (with all the added factors of timing and law) was to let him walk away

So if same happenee Amaram, you would love him, even knowing what he did?

Dalinar experienced no personal growth between going to the nightwatcher and OB when hes menories come back. Saying otherwise is rewriting the narrative.

Thats the thing Dalinar isn't all that honourable, look back at before he went to the nightwatcher, and since he got his memories back, how many honourable things did he do ? Look back at while he was pruned, and see how many honourable things he did, then genuinely look for the dishonourable ones and will balance out, take the blinders off and actually look.

[Quick Ben he/him]

13 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

but she is definitely going to be irritated for him for being petty.

Sorry now, but wanting retribution against the person you hold ultimately responsible for the death of your brother is far from petty.

Its 100% normal. Regardless of what else is going on

Same for Moash in relation to his grandparents, 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Quick Ben
Apologies for double post, couldnt quote in an edit

[Bejarden he/him]

3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

He could easily of made him gove up his shardblade in order to ensure Amaram stood trial, don't see how that would cause civil war, would cause a stir and perhaps add fuel to the fire of Sadeas arguments, but civil war ? Don't think so

How exactly to you go to one of the most powerful person in the world and say “give me your shards” he will say no that’s the facts you can’t take away the shards it’s impossible 

 

4 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

What pain ? When everything that made him who he was, was gone ? And all that was left was his good side, anything that could lead to Dalinar becoming who he was again was taken away, he didn't do anythinh to become who he became, 

He still was a drunk he still remembered abusing his children but he grew past that and became better

6 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

So if same happenee Amaram, you would love him, even knowing what he did?

Dalinar experienced no personal growth between going to the nightwatcher and OB when hes menories come back. Saying otherwise is rewriting the narrative.

Thats the thing Dalinar isn't all that honourable, look back at before he went to the nightwatcher, and since he got his memories back, how many honourable things did he do ? Look back at while he was pruned, and see how many honourable things he did, then genuinely look for the dishonourable ones and will balance out, take the blinders off and actually look.

If Amaram had worked on himself and become better yes I would enjoy his character 

That is the purpose of growth

The stem of the argument seems to be ‘did Dalinar grow’

3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Sorry now, but wanting retribution against the person you hold ultimately responsible for the death of your brother is far from petty.

Its 100% normal. Regardless of what else is going on

Same for Moash in relation to his grandparents, 

Yes agreed but acting against him which would destabilize an entire town there were just more important things to do

And Moash I do understand his motivation 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

He could easily of made him gove up his shardblade in order to ensure Amaram stood trial, don't see how that would cause civil war, would cause a stir and perhaps add fuel to the fire of Sadeas arguments, but civil war ? Don't think so

Easily?

How? there isn't a way to forcibly unbond a shardblade without killing them. At least as far as we know

[Quick Ben he/him]

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

How exactly to you go to one of the most powerful person in the world and say “give me your shards” he will say no that’s the facts you can’t take away the shards it’s impossible 

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Easily?

How? there isn't a way to forcibly unbond a shardblade without killing them. At least as far as we know

Shardblade to the throat.

As i said yes would cause a stir, yes would set a precedent, but cause civil war ? No i dont think so, 

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 He still was a drunk he still remembered abusing his children but he grew past that and became better

Still a drunk ? No he wasn't, his reason for drinking was taken away, his need for drinking was taken away so no he wasnt.

Same with the children, reasons why he was how he was were all taken away.

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

If Amaram had worked on himself and become better yes I would enjoy his character 

That is the purpose of growth 

But if he didnt work on himself and was just made better like Dalinar was ?

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes agreed but acting against him which would destabilize an entire town there were just more important things to do

And Moash I do understand his motivation 

To be fair wouldnt of taken much time to deal with Roshone, and was clear Laural could of handled things as well. 

Moash is an unfortunate character in alot of ways, 

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

As i said yes would cause a stir, yes would set a precedent, but cause civil war ? No i dont think so, 

Do you recall OB at all?

They were on the verge of civil war the whole time and that was just the thought that Dalinar had done something, if they had proof that he had activly threatened a brightlord that was sworn to a different hihgprince.

The Other highprinces already think he is taking too much power for himself, doing this is a massive overstep, he would have civil war within hours.

[Bejarden he/him]

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Shardblade to the throat.

As i said yes would cause a stir, yes would set a precedent, but cause civil war ? No i dont think s

Which would then cause Amaram to summon his Shardblade and fight back

 

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

As i said yes would cause a stir, yes would set a precedent, but cause civil war ? No i dont think so, 

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Sadeas was begging at that time for an excuse to go to war if Dalinar fought one of his Vassal under no legal athourity he would all out go to war no questions ask

He would also take half of Alethkar with him

8 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Still a drunk ? No he wasn't, his reason for drinking was taken away, his need for drinking was taken away so no he wasnt.

Same with the children, reasons why he was how he was were all taken away.

This is Dalinar after the Nightwatcher:

Quote

“He would break that habit. When men abused drink under his command, he’d found that the...He would do the same for himself. It woudnt be easy, but he would manage”

 

10 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

To be fair wouldnt of taken much time to deal with Roshone, and was clear Laural could of handled things as well. 

This is a culture that would not stand a women in charge. I know they did it with jasnah but that was an exception not the rule. The town needed traditional leadership

[Quick Ben he/him]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Do you recall OB at all?

They were on the verge of civil war the whole time and that was just the thought that Dalinar had done something, if they had proof that he had activly threatened a brightlord that was sworn to a different hihgprince.

The Other highprinces already think he is taking too much power for himself, doing this is a massive overstep, he would have civil war within hours.

If i recall correctly, he was about to leave on the expedition to the centre of the shattered plains, the highprinces has already seperated into 2 factions, Amaram belonged to Sadeas, who had set himself opposite Dalinar, so while would of caused a stir, def would not iof caused civil war esp as things turned out how they did. Sadeas murder was forgotten about, imnsure taking the shards from his vessel would of been.

33 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Which would then cause Amaram to summon his Shardblade and fight back

 

Sadeas was begging at that time for an excuse to go to war if Dalinar fought one of his Vassal under no legal athourity he would all out go to war no questions ask

He would also take half of Alethkar with him

Guess i kinda answered this above really

34 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This is Dalinar after the Nightwatcher:

Can you show him battling the need to drink ? (Before gets his memories back), one line is indication to you ?

36 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This is a culture that would not stand a women in charge. I know they did it with jasnah but that was an exception not the rule. The town needed traditional leadership

Agree about the culture, but it it irrelevant to Kaladins lack of action with regard Roshone, esp since Kaladin wasn't thinking along those lines, his thoughts were "i know real evil now, Roshone is just a petty lighteyes" well that petty lighteyes still is the person ultimately responsible for your brother dying in your opinion so you would still want retribution, 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

If i recall correctly, he was about to leave on the expedition to the centre of the shattered plains, the highprinces has already seperated into 2 factions, Amaram belonged to Sadeas, who had set himself opposite Dalinar, so while would of caused a stir, def would not iof caused civil war esp as things turned out how they did. Sadeas murder was forgotten about, imnsure taking the shards from his vessel would of been.

forgoteen about? it was what cause Sadeas's armies to be sent to Thaylan City, it's what caused them to be possesed by Odium. It was not forgoteen.

[Forms of mind]

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

You seem to think Dalinar had a lot more power than he had, the president can't just arrest Congress, no matter what they do.

Dalinar Had so much power as the system of rule in Alethkar during and after Gavilar then before Jashna is more a feudal based on the motto might makes right. They justify war and conquest saying that the outcome was the will of the all mighty

[Bejarden he/him]

10 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

If i recall correctly, he was about to leave on the expedition to the centre of the shattered plains, the highprinces has already seperated into 2 factions, Amaram belonged to Sadeas, who had set himself opposite Dalinar, so while would of caused a stir, def would not iof caused civil war esp as things turned out how they did. Sadeas murder was forgotten about, imnsure taking the shards from his vessel would of been.

How would attacking a Highprince vassa in a literal powder keg of a society not make it blow up

In Sadeas murder they never proved who did it and frankly they all understood they had bigger fish to fry and then they finally turned with odiums influence 

10 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Can you show him battling the need to drink ? (Before gets his memories back), one line is indication to you ?

53 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Before the night watcher sure 

“ He remembered his few years as a Drunkard”

Thats someone who battles the need to drink

11 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Agree about the culture, but it it irrelevant to Kaladins lack of action with regard Roshone, esp since Kaladin wasn't thinking along those lines, his thoughts were "i know real evil now, Roshone is just a petty lighteyes" well that petty lighteyes still is the person ultimately responsible for your brother dying in your opinion so you would still want retribution, 

How is it Honorable to destroy a town for petty vengeance that was all together Amaram fault

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Forms of mind said:

Dalinar Had so much power as the system of rule in Alethkar during and after Gavilar then before Jashna is more a feudal based on the motto might makes right. They justify war and conquest saying that the outcome was the will of the all mighty

I what?

I'm assuming you mean something along the lines of, "Dalinar has as much power as the system of rule in Alethkar becasue they hold the philosophy that might makes right." 

That shows a fundemental misunderstanding of Alethi Culture, if Dalinar wanted to declare war and take power that way he could, but as things stand now he does not have the authority to do that, and just demanding it is not enough.

[The Technovore he/him]

It's interesting to me how some of the arguments in this conversation are stemming from the idea that only correct definition of Honor is their definition. Instead of, you know, being multifaceted and open to interpretation--where one interpretation isn't necessarily better than another because in likelyhood they're both incomplete and thereby flawed. Like... Honorspren, Highspren, Cryptics, Inkspren, and all the Radiant types are splinters of Honor (with some Culti mixed in with some of them, clearly), but they all disagree on what honor means.

This idea of "Dalinar hasn't grown and isn't honorable because he relented on a moral choice because he felt trapped by necessity" seems like a blindfolded view of it. This is the guy that was 100% unrestrained passions (Champion of Odium) and was murdering people for annoying him, who isnow trying his best to do as little harm as possible while protecting as many as possible. But no, no growth that I can see nope. He didn't take down Amaram and start a civil war based on the testimony of a single soldier nope he's learned nothing smh my head rn. Like... where's the honor in destabilizing a nation and sacrificing thousands of darkeyed lives because your moral sensibilities dictate that a dude should be tried for crimes?

[Bejarden he/him]

1 minute ago, The Technovore said:

This idea of "Dalinar hasn't grown and isn't honorable because he relented on a moral choice because he felt trapped by necessity" seems like a blindfolded view of it. This is the guy that was 100% unrestrained passions (Champion of Odium) and was murdering people for annoying him, who isnow trying his best to do as little harm as possible while protecting as many as possible

The idea here from Quick Ben is that this an artificial growth via cultivation that does not deserve the term ‘honarable’ which I disagree with

 

3 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

He didn't take down Amaram and start a civil war based on the testimony of a single soldier nope

Well he is trying Amaram in court or at least that was the plan he would have taken him down if he could have without destabilizing Alethkar 

[The Technovore he/him]

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The idea here from Quick Ben is that this an artificial growth via cultivation that does not deserve the term ‘honarable’ which I disagree with

Oh I see. Okay well I think that could be subject to debate depending on how much Culti actually has to do with Dalinar's changes off-screen. I would make the argument that Cultivation didn't do really that much. In WoK and WoR we don't see Dalinar remarking on how he doesn't remember the last 10 years of his life, and he doesn't wonder what people mean when they say "The Blackthorn". He only doesn't remember Evi. And then in the flashbacks we see Dalinar the Blackthorn being really scary and brutish until he killed Evi, where we see the aggression completely go out of him. He turns instead to drinking and the pain is too much for him to even function in any respect. It almost seems like what happened with Moash making a deal with Odium to "take his pain". Instead, Cultivation took his pain, by removing the memory of Evi, which allowed him to function, but the shame of his past actions stayed. We see mention that he then had to deal with alcoholism, which left pretty quickly, and then he's the Dalinar we know today. I would argue that the Blackthorn died with Evi, and then Cultivation gave him the copium to prevent him from turning to Odium. Thus the growth isn't very artificial, the way I see it.

 

Also, my previous post probably came off as arrogant and combative. I want to apologize for that as... intellectual arrogance like that is a great way to take a civil conversation and make it uncivil, so I'm sorry, I'm gonna dial back the ego the bit. 

[Quick Ben he/him]

52 minutes ago, Frustration said:

forgoteen about? it was what cause Sadeas's armies to be sent to Thaylan City, it's what caused them to be possesed by Odium. It was not forgoteen.

Sure, when was it referenced in RoW ? Or by any highprince since the murder originally happened ?

45 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

How would attacking a Highprince vassa in a literal powder keg of a society not make it blow up

He wasnt a highprince at the time, just a landed lighteyes and recent shard bearer.

46 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

In Sadeas murder they never proved who did it and frankly they all understood they had bigger fish to fry and then they finally turned with odiums influence 

Because was swept  "under the rug" by Dalinar

46 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

How is it Honorable to destroy a town for petty vengeance that was all together Amaram fault

Heartstone wouldnt be destroyed if Kaladin killed Roshone, or took his power within the town away etc

21 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

It's interesting to me how some of the arguments in this conversation are stemming from the idea that only correct definition of Honor is their definition. Instead of, you know, being multifaceted and open to interpretation--where one interpretation isn't necessarily better than another because in likelyhood they're both incomplete and thereby flawed. Like... Honorspren, Highspren, Cryptics, Inkspren, and all the Radiant types are splinters of Honor (with some Culti mixed in with some of them, clearly), but they all disagree on what honor means.

I don't think at any point in this entire conversation have we disagreed what Honour is, so unsure what you are talking about.

23 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

This idea of "Dalinar hasn't grown and isn't honorable because he relented on a moral choice because he felt trapped by necessity" seems like a blindfolded view of it. This is the guy that was 100% unrestrained passions (Champion of Odium) and was murdering people for annoying him, who isnow trying his best to do as little harm as possible while protecting as many as possible. But no, no growth that I can see nope. He didn't take down Amaram and start a civil war based on the testimony of a single soldier nope he's learned nothing smh my head rn. Like... where's the honor in destabilizing a nation and sacrificing thousands of darkeyed lives because your moral sensibilities dictate that a dude should be tried for crimes?

Dalinar didnt have personal growth, he didnt accept his problems, work through them, and come out the other side, they were removed, ergo no personal growth.

 

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

Sure, when was it referenced in RoW ? Or by any highprince since the murder originally happened ?

After Sadeas's army betrayed them, was destroyed and Ilali retreated?

And a year break?

 

Now, immagine what would have happened if not only was Dalinar suspected of Murdering a HIghprince, but had personally threatened one of said HIghprinces vassels, and stolen his Shardblade.

[Quick Ben he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

After Sadeas's army betrayed them, was destroyed and Ilali retreated?

And a year break?

Nothing was said before the betrayal either

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Now, immagine what would have happened if not only was Dalinar suspected of Murdering a HIghprince, but had personally threatened one of said HIghprinces vassels, and stolen his Shardblade.

Same as what happened anyway.

But if he had taken Amarams blade, maybe Sadeas never gets killed, mayhe Sadeas sees Dalinar is back to the blacktorn, maybe Sadeas falls into line, maybe not, maybe civil war starts, , with Dalinar faction in Urithruu and Sadeas in the warcamps, where easy targets for fused ? How long you think civil war would last ? Not long id say, but no way to know all of the what ifs that could of happened

[Bejarden he/him]

11 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Oh I see. Okay well I think that could be subject to debate depending on how much Culti actually has to do with Dalinar's changes off-screen. I would make the argument that Cultivation didn't do really that much. In WoK and WoR we don't see Dalinar remarking on how he doesn't remember the last 10 years of his life, and he doesn't wonder what people mean when they say "The Blackthorn". He only doesn't remember Evi. And then in the flashbacks we see Dalinar the Blackthorn being really scary and brutish until he killed Evi, where we see the aggression completely go out of him. He turns instead to drinking and the pain is too much for him to even function in any respect. It almost seems like what happened with Moash making a deal with Odium to "take his pain". Instead, Cultivation took his pain, by removing the memory of Evi, which allowed him to function, but the shame of his past actions stayed. We see mention that he then had to deal with alcoholism, which left pretty quickly, and then he's the Dalinar we know today. I would argue that the Blackthorn died with Evi, and then Cultivation gave him the copium to prevent him from turning to Odium. Thus the growth isn't very artificial, the way I see it.

Welcome to the Debate

 

9 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Sure, when was it referenced in RoW ? Or by any highprince since the murder originally happened ?

Not sure what your going for here but I’ll assume your asking why isn’t Sadeas men still mad about it.

The answer is their practicaly all dead and their proncedom betrayed the Coalition so nobody would care if they complained

9 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Heartstone wouldnt be destroyed if Kaladin killed Roshone, or took his power within the town away etc

34 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

The facts are the town needed stability and it would need it indefinitely so he left Roshone in charge which was honorable because it protect the many why’ll sacrificing his need for vengeance 

 

9 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

He wasnt a highprince at the time, just a landed lighteyes and recent shard bearer.

I said Vassal ( forgot the L)

 

9 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Because was swept  "under the rug" by Dalinar

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What? They all knew about it, they had fights

 

9 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Dalinar didnt have personal growth, he didnt accept his problems, work through them, and come out the other side, they were removed, ergo no personal growth.

Someone can grow even if they are helped along the way

Cultivation did not make him a good person. not even close. She did one thing, take away Evi

Then Dalinar decided to move past his problems with great pains and become honorable 

 

 

Responding to your new post:

there were tons of things happening after Sadeas died

 

And Hindsight is 20 20 as I have said 

You can’t say “ he should start a civil war because in 20 chapters a Desolation will happen and there will be a civil war anyway” that’s not how it works

rihht there in that moment the only thing to do was to let him walk away with the shards and hopefully come back in a weak, Parshendi destroyed, and bring Amaram to justice 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Bejardin1250
No double posting

[Quick Ben he/him]

16 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Not sure what your going for here but I’ll assume your asking why isn’t Sadeas men still mad about it.

The answer is their practicaly all dead and their proncedom betrayed the Coalition so nobody would care if they complained

By middle of OB, who killed Sadeas isnt mentioned, long before the betrayal, while i agree after the betrayal, less likely people will care Sadeas was murdered, but still strange was never mentioned, no one held account for it etc.

16 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The facts are the town needed stability and it would need it indefinitely so he left Roshone in charge which was honorable because it protect the many why’ll sacrificing his need for vengeance 

 

What Kaladin wanted was retribution not remotely the same as vengence.

16 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What? They all knew about it, they had fights

 

Kinda answeree this qbove but was about the identity of Sadeas murderer

16 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Someone can grow even if they are helped along the way

Cultivation did not make him a good person. not even close. She did one thing, take away Evi

Then Dalinar decided to move past his problems with great pains and become honorable 
 

See i think she did alot more then take away Evi as you put it, she took away everything bad that made him who he was.

17 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

And Hindsight is 20 20 as I have said 

You can’t say “ he should start a civil war because in 20 chapters a Desolation will happen and there will be a civil war anyway” that’s not how it works

 

No point i was making is, if Dalinar had taken Amarams blade any number of things could of happemed and listed a few possible things that could of for reference

 

19 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

rihht there in that moment the only thing to do was to let him walk away with the shards and hopefully come back in a weak, Parshendi destroyed, and bring Amaram to justice 

We will go back and fourth on this one forever so think time to calls a spade a spade here before we go in circles with it and agree to disagree

[Aspiring Writer]

22 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Nothing was said before the betrayal either

Same as what happened anyway.

But if he had taken Amarams blade, maybe Sadeas never gets killed, mayhe Sadeas sees Dalinar is back to the blacktorn, maybe Sadeas falls into line, maybe not, maybe civil war starts, , with Dalinar faction in Urithruu and Sadeas in the warcamps, where easy targets for fused ? How long you think civil war would last ? Not long id say, but no way to know all of the what ifs that could of happened

the Alethi take pride in their shards. They do not give them easily, and having anyone take them would cause an uproar by every highprince. It is a breaking of tradition that they highly value, and they would wonder how long till he takes their shardblades. 

[Bejarden he/him]

1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

By middle of OB, who killed Sadeas isnt mentioned, long before the betrayal, while i agree after the betrayal, less likely people will care Sadeas was murdered, but still strange was never mentioned, no one held account for it etc.

Ialial(or whoever Sadeas wife is) knew that Dalinar was in some part responsible she just didn’t have evidence and they all decided that the ending of the world was a bigger problem.

 

3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

See i think she did alot more then take away Evi as you put it, she took away everything bad that made him who he was.

So do you think that the Dalinar today is the same as the Dalinar right after the Nightwatcher

 

4 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

No point i was making is, if Dalinar had taken Amarams blade any number of things could of happemed and listed a few possible things that could of for reference

 This I will also say agree to disagree because a resolution will not happen here

 

5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

We will go back and fourth on this one forever so think time to calls a spade a spade here before we go in circles with it and agree to disagree

Sure