Adolin's anger management

[Lccaseiro58]

13 minutes ago, Daggon Forescout said:

 

I mean Alethi society does put a lot of pressure on men to be aggressive and violent. You saw how much people mock Renarin for not charging headfirst into battle along with everyone else. While Dalinar obviously takes it to an extreme, it's possible he never would have developed his bloodlust if he'd been raised in a less militaristic society. To bring it back to Adolin, I think people assume that since Adolin is reaching for his sword that means he can't control his anger, when in reality he's no more frustrated than we've all been. He's just been trained from a young age that address social problems with duels or by displaying prowess on the field of battle.

I disagree, if you react in a violent manner like pulling a weapon every time your angry, that's an issue even if your anger is justified. We see Adolin do this multiple times, in the scenes you mentioned he starts summoning his weapon subconsciously and is later stopped by Renarin and Dalinar in some off those. We know what happened when nobody was there to stop him.

Adolin is a great person and I think this issue adds more to his character than retracts, and it could be something to explore in the future.

[Bejarden]

8 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Making excuses for how Dalinar committed mass murder at the rift, by claiming Sadeas goaded him, yet don't cut Adolin way less sack by realising He was goaded as well? 

Dalinar wasn’t goaded he was barely conscious and was told by someone the most realistic thing to do in his eyes

Kill

Adolin is not going to get the same excuse he was fully conscious and aware he knew what he was doing and did it anyway

It is completely legal to goad and not entirely baseless as sadeas thought he’s was doing what was best for the kingdom he created

Killing someone is not OK and did absolutely nothing to help the Kholin cause

[Daggon Forescout]

1 hour ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

I disagree, if you react in a violent manner like pulling a weapon every time your angry, that's an issue even if your anger is justified. We see Adolin do this multiple times, in the scenes you mentioned he starts summoning his weapon subconsciously and is later stopped by Renarin and Dalinar in some off those. We know what happened when nobody was there to stop him.

Adolin is a great person and I think this issue adds more to his character than retracts, and it could be something to explore in the future.

First, I'd like to point out that he only ever acts like this around Sadeas. Second, I'd like to refer you to the first bit I quoted: he's not thinking about killing Sadeas right there and then, he's thinking about challenging Sadeas to a duel. The one time he actually does attack Sadeas he doesn't go for his Blade; he pulls out a dagger because that's more effective in a grapple.

Is it a character flaw that he's impulsive and hot headed? Yes, and it makes him that much more compelling. Does it significantly impact his life? Does it make him a danger to the people or things around him? No.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Daggon Forescout

[GroundPetrel]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

this one

 

Toxic masculinity is the beating heart of Alethi society.  It isn't directly affecting Dalinar in any conscious way in that moment, but he has been conditioned to be the Blackthorn and to see this as a good thing.  That is what did a massive amount of psychological and emotional damage to him that he's only barely managed to cope with after being mind-wiped. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Toxic masculinity is the beating heart of Alethi society.  It isn't directly affecting Dalinar in any conscious way in that moment, but he has been conditioned to be the Blackthorn and to see this as a good thing.  That is what did a massive amount of psychological and emotional damage to him that he's only barely managed to cope with after being mind-wiped. 

Going to have to disagree with you there, the only people who liked Dalinar were his allies, everyone else saw him as a monster. And eventually even his allies took that view.

[Aspiring Writer]

Okay, as someone who has been dealing with temper problems since a child, Adolin is on the lower end of the spectrum by far. First off, we see that with both Dalinar and Adolin that they tend to subconsciously summon their Blade when distracted or anxious, which is equivalent to squeezing a stress ball, and Adolin summoning a blade could be seen as challenging Sadeas, not trying to murder him (And seeing as his thoughts are on dueling when he is thinking about this, that is a safe assumption.).

Two, if you think having a person who has been insulting you and your loved ones for years isn't going to wear on your patience, then congrats, you are lucky to not have had to deal with that. People can get under your skin when they keep goading you while not crossing that line that can let you retaliate. It is literally the strategy of school bullies and why they are really infuriating. Adolin reacting like this is also possibly healthier than keeping it in, where he would end up containing that anger until it consumes him and blows. (Believe me, containing anger doesn't work well. It's like a time bomb that gets stronger the longer it takes. After a year or so of calm, I ended up getting so angry that I threw my own glasses and broke them. Not showing anger simply delays the inevitable, and may end up getting angry at the wrong people.)

Three, Sadeas had just given Adolin a threat. A legitimate threat that Adolin had every reason to believe he would do. Sadeas may have been weaponless, but he knew what he was doing. Adolin's decision, if not right, was reasonable. Don't threaten someone's family and not expect at least a punch to the face. 

And fourth, believe me when I say the fact he has controlled himself so well for most people and to some extent even Sadeas (I honestly would expect Adolin to do more than just start to summon, i would expect him to put the sword to his neck before calming down.) Not making do on your impulses is incredibly difficult when your in that mindset, and while he has people to make sure he doesn't step over that line, he has been able to keep himself from killing/challenging him for this long, which is impressive.

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar wasn’t goaded he was barely conscious and was told by someone the most realistic thing to do in his eyes

Kill

Adolin is not going to get the same excuse he was fully conscious and aware he knew what he was doing and did it anyway

It is completely legal to goad and not entirely baseless as sadeas thought he’s was doing what was best for the kingdom he created

Killing someone is not OK and did absolutely nothing to help the Kholin cause

Dalinar was convinced to commit genocide, not just revenge. He killed civilians which, even in his current mental state, is not something to just excuse.

Okay, while goading is legal, it isn't okay, and Sadeas just gave Adolin a flat-out threat. Adolin basically did self-defense in advance on someone who already tried to get them killed several times.

He wasn't really caring about the kingdom. Dalinar had just proven to be sane and right about everything and he was already thinking of lies to spin this when they were in the middle of desolation. That does not speak well for his motives.

Killing someone in self defense is okay. While that situation doesn't perfectly mirror the situation that would be the case, it has similarities. let Sadeas live to continue lying and trying to undermine and kill you and everyone who follows you, or kill him now and save those people and remove an imminent threat. And what he did technically did help the Kholin cause. While Ialai ended up being thorn in their side, Sadeas would have been much worse and could've potentially broke the coalition. Ialai wasn't at her best after his death, and Amaram is less manipulative than Sadeas, to some extent. (Sadeas knows how to manipulate others in a different way than amaram that could've been more damaging.)

[Bejarden]

6 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Adolin reacting like this is also possibly healthier than keeping it in, where he would end up containing that anger until it consumes him and blows. (Believe me, containing anger doesn't work well. It's like a time bomb that gets stronger the longer it takes. After a year or so of calm, I ended up getting so angry that I threw my own glasses and broke them. Not showing anger simply delays the inevitable, and may end up getting angry at the wrong people.)

He committed murder that’s also not something to just glaze over

the point I’m trying to make is that he has a temper larger then an ordinary Alethi 

You don’t see any other Kholin officers getting ticked off by a treat and killing someone.

 

 

Sadeas was worn thin and wanted to preserve the kingdom he created. He saw Dalinar as an active threat trying to destroy it.

8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Amaram is less manipulative than Sadeas, to some extent. (Sadeas knows how to manipulate others in a different way than amaram that could've been more damaging.)

Sadeas was not a threat 

The very fact that he denied the desolation undermined himself completely 

And sometimes it is far more destructive to have an enemy actually try to kill you actively then deceive you

[GroundPetrel]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He committed murder that’s also not something to just glaze over

the point I’m trying to make is that he has a temper larger then an ordinary Alethi 

You don’t see any other Kholin officers getting ticked off by a treat and killing someone.

It was not just "a threat".  It was a man who had already proven his ability and willingness to follow through on those threats explicitly threatening Adolin's family and the whole world.  

If at the end of WOR Amaram had been there with Kaladin and had told him "I am going to murder every last one of your bridgemen and if you tell anyone I said that I'll have 14 witnesses saying that I said nothing of the kind and you're just a crazy upjumped darkeyes", Kaladin would have impaled him with Syl on the spot, and Syl would have egged him on.  And probably punched Amaram's corpse into unrecognizability, to boot.  

Jasnah wouldn't even have waited to let Sadeas finish his thought, she'd just Soulcast him to stone on the spot, dice him with Ivory, then Soulcast the chunks to smoke.  

[Bejarden]

Saying the words

” I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.”

Does not constitute the death penalty

It was him telling him he will be the ruler of Alethkar and bring things back to normal taking out anyone in his way 

A probably very normal feeling to have in a warring society like Alethkar

If there is a separate political faction that is very weak and has no credibility and says it wants control you don’t just kill the leader of that faction

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He committed murder that’s also not something to just glaze over

the point I’m trying to make is that he has a temper larger then an ordinary Alethi 

You don’t see any other Kholin officers getting ticked off by a treat and killing someone.

 

 

Sadeas was worn thin and wanted to preserve the kingdom he created. He saw Dalinar as an active threat trying to destroy it.

Sadeas was not a threat 

The very fact that he denied the desolation undermined himself completely 

And sometimes it is far more destructive to have an enemy actually try to kill you actively then deceive you

he killed someone that threatened him and his family. That wouldn't be counted as murder, and again, Sadeas has already tried to kill him multiple times.

Yeah, but a Kholin officer doesn't have to go through what he does every day. He has to deal with that bastard after years of insults and schemes and most recently assassination attempts. I would expect anyone to break after that.

It is clear in that moment that Sadeas knew the Dalinar was right and he was planning on lying. He did not believe what he was saying. he was a threat to the him, his family, and his factions, and potentially the entire kingdom.

If he was undermined, why did he still have so many followers? There were people who were going to follow him not matter what, and as long as he was highprince and therefore part of the coalition, he would mess with the other nations as much as possible.

They already are trying to kill him! The danger is him deceiving their allies in the coalition against him even more than they already were in that book.

[The Technovore]

13 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Jasnah wouldn't even have waited to let Sadeas finish his thought, she'd just Soulcast him to stone on the spot, dice him with Ivory, then Soulcast the chunks to smoke.  

Nah, she'd find a way to intimidate the stone into becoming chicken dung. ;P

Idk, Bejardin, I get what you're saying with murder being murder, and he is characterized as the hothead that's the whole "hold me back! hold me back! lemme at em!" shtick, and maybe he is more aggressive than the average Alethi, but I think that would be cause the average Alethi is a civilian. Literally a farmer. He's a noble that's grown up at the edge of a battlefield, his best friends are soldiers, and his peers are psychopathic noblemen.

That said, there is a difference between killing a man and having anger management issues. Anger management issues are characterized by bouts of rage, outrage, and attempting to use anger to control others. They are especially marked by an inability to control their emotions--demonstrating the same maturity of a 2-year-old, which suggests something wrong in the psychology if not in the biology. Adolin doesn't use anger to control others, nor does he demonstrate an inability to control himself. If he did have anger management issues, he would have a reputation in the taverns for being destructive, he would be avoided by subordinates that he had previously met, he would be rumored about, Dalinar would've been treating him differently, he would not be getting so many suitors, and Sadeas would've known not to goad him.

He used anger to try and get Sadeas off the Kholin's backs, and eventually used anger to remove the evil man that deserved to be killedIdon'tcareifit'smurderI'mLashinghimintotheskydon'ttrytostopme. You can demonstrate he's a murderer. You can proof he was probably angry when he murdered. That does not necessarily translate into anger management issues.

 

EDIT: If you want to look at anger management issues, take a look at Camon, or Straff Venture from Mistborn. Or take a look at Gaz before Kaladin intimidates him into submission, or perhaps the more psychopathic Lamaril.

Edited March 3, 2021 by The Technovore

[Aspiring Writer]

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Saying the words

” I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.”

Does not constitute the death penalty

Does him trying to kill him, his family, and his faction multiple times constitute the death penalty?

[Bejarden]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

Does him trying to kill him, his family, and his faction multiple times constitute the death penalty?

Apparently not in Alethi society.  That’s them not me.

5 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Nah, she'd find a way to intimidate the stone into becoming chicken dung. ;P

Idk, Bejardin, I get what you're saying with murder being murder, and he is characterized as the hothead that's the whole "hold me back! hold me back! lemme at em!" shtick, and maybe he is more aggressive than the average Alethi, but I think that would be cause the average Alethi is a civilian. Literally a farmer. He's a noble that's grown up at the edge of a battlefield, his best friends are soldiers, and his peers are psychopathic noblemen.

That said, there is a difference between killing a man and having anger management issues. Anger management issues are characterized by bouts of rage, outrage, and attempting to use anger to control others. They are especially marked by an inability to control their emotions--demonstrating the same maturity of a 2-year-old, which suggests something wrong in the psychology if not in the biology. Adolin doesn't use anger to control others, nor does he demonstrate an inability to control himself. If he did have anger management issues, he would have a reputation in the taverns for being destructive, he would be avoided by subordinates that he had previously met, he would be rumored about, Dalinar would've been treating him differently, he would not be getting so many suitors, and Sadeas would've known not to goad him.

He used anger to try and get Sadeas off the Kholin's backs, and eventually used anger to remove the evil man that deserved to be killedIdon'tcareifit'smurderI'mLashinghimintotheskydon'ttrytostopme. You can demonstrate he's a murderer. You can proof he was probably angry when he murdered. That does not necessarily translate into anger management issues.

I did not say he has anger management issues 

I was originally arguing against that

i do agree that he can control it and Sadeas made him snap in a very predictable way

Every point every one made here is correct as far as I can tell

just that someone completely cool headed would not have done this

maybe I got turned around and mixed up in my arguing bu that was what I was trying to sat

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

just that someone completely cool headed would not have done this

Well, I think that depends on the person, because Jasnah is cool-headed, and she would've probably done the same in Adolin's place, if not more carefully to leave no evidence whatsoever.

[Bejarden]

Well jasnah much more ‘ends justify means’ and is a completely different conversation for a complete different character set

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well jasnah much more ‘ends justify means’ and is a completely different conversation for a complete different character set

true.