Honor Theory #16729438 (the next Recreance has already begun)

[SturmOgre]

Just now, Frustration said:

let's assume that you pay them the same as Vorin slaves 1 diamond chip a day, with a static population of say 50,000

50,000*500 days*2,000 years

and you end up with a ludicrus sum of FIFTY MILLION emerald Broams.

 

That doesn't actually matter. Do you think that every penny earned by any worker is reinvested into the economy? There is no situation where people only buying necessities will crash the economy. Especially since the slaveform singers wouldn't be participating in the economy anyways, so businesses wouldn't lose money.

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And then you have communities of defensless people you have to protect so Conquerers don't acquire them and use them to their advantage in conquring you.

You would have to protect them anyway if they were slaves, and besides, they are in your territory, and presumably near other population centers, so you would be protecting that land whether or not they even exist. Either way, any farming community would be effectively defenceless against a proper army, and the purpose of a government in the first place is to protect its constituents.

[mathiau he/him]

2 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

That doesn't actually matter. Do you think that every penny earned by any worker is reinvested into the economy?

They factually are

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

That doesn't actually matter. Do you think that every penny earned by any worker is reinvested into the economy? There is no situation where people only buying necessities will crash the economy. Especially since the slaveform singers wouldn't be participating in the economy anyways, so businesses wouldn't lose money.

Were are they getting the money if people aren't losing it?

I don't think you understand just how huge that number is,

The largest specified number or broams mentioned in text is when Sadeas tells Dalinar he couldn't buy the bridgemen if he payed 1,000 broams a head.

These are two of argueably the richest people in the world, if 1,000 is a large enough sum to be seen as too expensive to pay, 1,000,000 must be the anual opperating budget of entire Kingdoms.

The total sum that would have to be paid is likely in the tens if not hundreds of Billions.

That just isn't possible, there might not be enough gems in all of Roshar to pay that.

7 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

You would have to protect them anyway if they were slaves, and besides, they are in your territory, and presumably near other population centers, so you would be protecting that land whether or not they even exist. Either way, any farming community would be effectively defenceless against a proper army, and the purpose of a government in the first place is to protect its constituents.

So you might as well get something form them if you're protecting them.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Frustration

[SturmOgre]

Just now, mathiau said:

They factually are

Yes, I should have specified that they aren't directly invested by the worker themselves. Most earned money is managed and reinvested by the banks, which is where the pay would be stored anyways.

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, SturmOgre said:

Yes, I should have specified that they aren't directly invested by the worker themselves. Most earned money is managed and reinvested by the banks, which is where the pay would be stored anyways.

I meant that money stored by workers always end up being used sooner or latter, with latter being at the longest of a few decades, not millennia like with Parshemen

[SturmOgre]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Were are they getting the money if people aren't losing it?

I don't think you understand just how huge that number is,

The largest specified number or broams mentioned in text is when Sadeas tells Dalinar he couldn't buy the bridgemen if he payed 1,000 broams a head.

These are two of argueably the richest people in the world, if 1,000 is a large enough sum to be seen as too expensive to pay, 1,000,000 must be the anual opperating budget of entire Kingdoms.

The total sum that would have to be paid is likely in the tens if not hundreds of Billions.

 

I don't understand your point here. Do you think businesses that employ workers have a net negative profit?

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So you might as well get something form them if you're protecting them.

What you are getting is any surplus food production, just like a regular self-sufficient farm (and presumably any transactional taxes from the purchase of the surplus). And as I said, you would most likely be protecting that place anyways, so it's not like you're doing something extra.

Edit:

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I meant that money stored by workers always end up being used sooner or latter, with latter being at the longest of a few decades, not millennia like with Parshemen

That isn't necessarily true though. Savings can be passed down through generations without being spent, and only being affected by any applicable taxes. And why would it take millennia? Not every slaveform singer will have inheritors, and they have similar lifespans to humans. So is Rosharan countries have similar inheritance laws to IRL ones, the earnings of a dead Singer will return to the economy in one form or another. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by SturmOgre
To avoid doubleposting

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

I don't understand your point here. Do you think businesses that employ workers have a net negative profit?

The cost of production is taken out of profit, but they also are not  spending any money, unless you are saying that they should be 'payed' and their 'pay' covers their food, basic necesities and taxes but nothing more, and thus are left in an infinate zero sum gain of wroking. someone is losing money.

If no one buys your stuff, but you have to pay to make it you are losing money.

3 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

What you are getting is any surplus food production, just like a regular self-sufficient farm (and presumably any transactional taxes from the purchase of the surplus). And as I said, you would most likely be protecting that place anyways, so it's not like you're doing something extra.

I mean, could work, maybe?

Edited February 19, 2021 by Frustration

[mathiau he/him]

1 minute ago, SturmOgre said:

What you are getting is any surplus food production, just like a regular self-sufficient farm (and presumably any transactional taxes from the purchase of the surplus). And as I said, you would most likely be protecting that place anyways, so it's not like you're doing something extra.

Fair.

Still, paying people with a money they cannot use would be like not paying them so there's no moral point in paying the Parshmen

[SturmOgre]

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Fair.

Still, paying people with a money they cannot use would be like not paying them so there's no moral point in paying the Parshmen

I'm starting with the assumption that this is from the time right after the capture of BAM, where people know that the singers used to be sapient. The pay would be similar to how an author's royalties would be managed if they would fall into a coma. It doesn't matter if they can't use it at the moment, they deserve it anyway. Besides, at that time we wouldn't know whether or not the state of the singers was permanent.

Quote

The cost of production is taken out of profit, but they also are not  spending any money, unless you are saying that they should be 'payed' and their 'pay' covers their food, basic necesities and taxes but nothing more, and thus are left in an infinate zero sum gain of wroking. someone is losing money.

If no one buys your stuff, but you have to pay to make it you are losing money.

The singers would "buy" food and board. Again, a portion of the population only buying necessities will not cause total economic collapse. And as I pointed out earlier, any singer without inheritors would have their earnings put back into the economy in some fashion.

[Bejarden he/him]

56 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

I'm starting with the assumption that this is from the time right after the capture of BAM, where people know that the singers used to be sapient. The pay would be similar to how an author's royalties would be managed if they would fall into a coma. It doesn't matter if they can't use it at the moment, they deserve it anyway. Besides, at that time we wouldn't know whether or not the state of the singers was permanent.

The singers would "buy" food and board. Again, a portion of the population only buying necessities will not cause total economic collapse. And as I pointed out earlier, any singer without inheritors would have their earnings put back into the economy in some fashion.

This is just after a ( false) DESOLATION nobody has any money.

They definitely aren’t spending it on the very thing they fought to destroy

Even if they feel guilty they would only pay if they work and even that wouldn’t last long

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, SturmOgre said:

The singers would "buy" food and board. Again, a portion of the population only buying necessities will not cause total economic collapse. And as I pointed out earlier, any singer without inheritors would have their earnings put back into the economy in some fashion.

It doesn't have to be immediate, between them bleeding the coffers dry and soulcasting breaking the gems there won't be any moe spheres for them to have

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Wherever you live I guarantee you someone else was there first.

Does that bother you?

Make it harder to live life, or hold to your standard?

Someone else was there before them, and someone else was before them, and there will be someone else in the future, but all those people are of my species (kin, in a way, to myself and, more abstractly, to every other living thing on Earth), native to the planet on which I live.  It's not the same.

And the revelation that the humans came as refugees, and were given refuge by the Listeners, and then later took everything from them and then forgot that they ever existed as anything other than their slaves in the first place?  That would shake my foundations, no matter how many thousands of years later, because that kind of betrayal is not something you just forget.  Even if Honor and Cultivation and all the Spren and Roshar itself said otherwise, I would still feel like an usurper, a cuckoo bird being cared for by the parents/gods/planet of someone who'd been killed and replaced by my ancestors.  I wouldn't have the certainty to be a Radiant after that, especially if I'd formerly been a slave or bridgeman and knew what betrayal and oppression felt like.

 

Or, at least, that's how I feel about it, but I guess that feeling is less universal than I assumed.

[The Technovore he/him]

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Someone else was there before them, and someone else was before them, and there will be someone else in the future, but all those people are of my species (kin, in a way, to myself and, more abstractly, to every other living thing on Earth), native to the planet on which I live.  It's not the same.

See this is an interesting take (one that I agree with fully personally), for a lot of real life reasons, namely that of a lot of (mostly white) folks living in places that their ancestors colonized hating white folks for originally doing the colonizing. It's a irl almost-parallel that's threatening a lot of cultures. Which is interesting because it was people of our species doing to others of our species. Not aliens, or strange humanoid creatures with four biological genders and carapace growing out of their skin. Humans moving in on other humans and then either accidentally or purposefully desolating them. And that's causing divides today based on nothing more than arbitrary melanin content differences and old "your grandpappy cheated my grandpappy"-style hatred. 

 

So here in Roshar we have two species that are very different, on a biological level, but still share very very similar psychologies. They still have anger, and love, and senses of honor and preservation and justice and compassion. They still experience jealousy, and greed, and remorse. Is it really all that different? In the context of a universe sapient creatures trying to make a living, under the same stars created by the same gods, don't those biological and cultural differences just seem arbitrary? 
 

I can't see this revelation shaking me so badly I broke Oaths... unless I didn't truly understand the history. The human race that started the first desolations was a race that was created, molded, shaped, and guided entirely by Odium, the god of hatred. Am I really surprised that they'd turn out to be destructive and awful? The people of Odium? 

And those people are not my people. Those people lived and died thousands of years ago, the only living remnants a handful of immortal lunatics. The people of the singers experienced an effect similar to that of a deadeye spren thousands of years ago, and my species of lunatics, exploiters, heroes and builders exploited the deadeye singers in the meantime.

My species found a group of sentient singers, a remnant of the species Odium destroyed twice already, and then went to war because of the character failings of the listeners, the humans. Then Odium destroyed them a third time, resurrecting an entire army of immortal lunatics to destroy my people.

Who's fault is this? It's the fault of Odium, it's the fault of his servants, it's the fault of all of us that fell to his influence. 

Maybe the Skybreakers can look at the situation and blame humanity for the sins of their fathers, but the Windrunner in me insists that the grand majority of individuals in my species alive today are innocent, as well the grand majority of the singer people, and those who claim otherwise are the entire problem. Only one man in the history of Roshar had the power and influence to inflict upon an entire species destruction, desolation, hatred and war for 7,000 years, and his name is Rayse. End of story.

TL;DR I don't see any sufficiently educated group of Radiants (or at least the Windrunners, perhaps the Bondsmiths) being shaken by this knowledge. I can however see this fact creating divides between orders and ruining their cohesion. I think it's far more likely that the Recreance had more to do with the death of Tanavast and the Dawnshards. The stormfather has been wrong plenty of times before. He might be wrong on this.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

22 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

 

Maybe the Skybreakers can look at the situation and blame humanity for the sins of their fathers, but the Windrunner in me insists that the grand majority of individuals in my species alive today are innocent, as well the grand majority of the singer people, and those who claim otherwise are the entire problem. Only one man in the history of Roshar had the power and influence to inflict upon an entire species destruction, desolation, hatred and war for 7,000 years, and his name is Rayse. End of story.

See, here's the thing, those people, that innocent majority, are innocent in ignorance, not knowing any better and just trying their best.  Lacking their ignorance, I would feel that I lack their innocence, too.  The Skybreaker in me can't let a betrayal like that go without condemnation, or let mortals off the hook by placing the blame on the gods, but also refuses to condemn the ignorant, innocent majorities, so the only resolution, the only one I could allow to carry that burden, would be myself, (or. on a bad day, myself and those of the Knights Radiant who are no longer ignorant).  I certainly wouldn't see myself as worthy of the Ideals, so I'd probably end up trying to "protect" everyone else by ensuring that nobody else ever learns about the origins of humanity (especially those Radiants who don't already know).  And if I would feel that way, probably at least a couple of the Skybreakers felt something like that.

[Kyn]

38 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

See this is an interesting take (one that I agree with fully personally), for a lot of real life reasons, namely that of a lot of (mostly white) folks living in places that their ancestors colonized hating white folks for originally doing the colonizing. It's a irl almost-parallel that's threatening a lot of cultures. Which is interesting because it was people of our species doing to others of our species. Not aliens, or strange humanoid creatures with four biological genders and carapace growing out of their skin. Humans moving in on other humans and then either accidentally or purposefully desolating them. And that's causing divides today based on nothing more than arbitrary melanin content differences and old "your grandpappy cheated my grandpappy"-style hatred. 

We have to be careful not to sound like we’re accusing wronged parties of being hung up over what happened generations ago when many are still actively being oppressed. We can’t dismiss genuine grievances over continued mistreatment as some lingering hatred due to past atrocities. But at the same time, it’s harder to get over past events that continue to impose genetic and societal suffering.

Spoiler

 

Say you’re in a video game and you’re constantly losing health because the environment is poisoned. It’s fine if you’re healthy to begin with or you have resources like healing and poison nullification. But people in a society where they were slaves and remain treated as subpar don’t get that. They had no chance to heal the massive damage or nullify the smaller constant-damage-effect caused by the poison-inflicting, heavily-damaging boss they faced just before. Never getting to recover makes it hard to let go of that boss fight’s damage.

Not because they can’t emotionally get over a bad past battle, but because they’re still experiencing the physical effects from it. Without some sort of restoration in between, it’s like one neverending attack instead of a past major assault that can be viewed distinctly from smaller current damages. And no, the current environmental poison isn’t as bad as the earlier boss poisoned attacks, just like constant discrimination isn’t as bad as being enslaved, but it’s still damage that’s never allayed.

 

39 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Maybe the Skybreakers can look at the situation and blame humanity for the sins of their fathers, but the Windrunner in me insists that the grand majority of individuals in my species alive today are innocent, as well the grand majority of the singer people, and those who claim otherwise are the entire problem.

So, I 100% agree we shouldn’t be punishing people for the actions of their ancestors. There’s a big difference between retributive and restorative justice, between punishing sins and fixing them.

But every Alethi living easier because of slave labor is responsible for their own current actions, just like every Singer who chooses to slaughter noncombatants is responsible for theirs. Every Alethi who decides nothing needs to be done to make current Singer lives better or make up for the deficit in which historical suffering leaves Singers is tacitly supporting past atrocities by affirming that they see no problem with the past atrocities’ lingering longterm effects…which makes them guilty of perpetuating those continuing injustices.

If some learn the truth and can no longer justify trying to wipe out people they’ve already destroyed in more than one sense, that seems a pretty laudable response. It takes a degree of zealotry or coldness to continue killing for a cause you’ve realized wasn’t justified. And if some Alethi are fine continuing in comfort at the expense of others’ freedom, then it’s their own sins that are the problem, not their fathers’.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

 

On 2/19/2021 at 8:05 PM, The Technovore said:

think it's far more likely that the Recreance had more to do with the death of Tanavast and the Dawnshards. The stormfather has been wrong plenty of times before. He might be wrong on this.

While I'm usually one for world/setting over characters/people, and I like not having the mortals be responsible for everything in a story involving mortals and gods, I feel like this would be a cop-out.  Having to live in a world damaged by the-previous-groups-of-Radiants's failure-at-the-very-ideals-that-our-heroes-struggle-with-and-try-to-embody adds a lot of "oomph" to the moral struggles that the characters have, and helps moments like "You cannot have my pain" feel not just powerful, but "earned".

On 2/18/2021 at 6:07 AM, C_rockets said:

I think, though, that BAM will be released and that will stop deadeyes being a result of oath-breaking. Which means that even if another recreance occurred, the results wouldn’t be nearly as devastating. At that point, would it even be considered a “recreance”?

 Also, there seems to be a large theme of spren bending and realizing that their rigid interpretation of things isn’t the only “right” way (especially in the case of the stormfather and honorspren), which could mean that instead of another recreance we see a balance reached between the rigidity of spren oaths and the changeability of humans.

Forgive me for being ignorant, but I can't find where it was established that BAM being imprisoned or released had/has-had/will-have/has anything to do with deadeyes or the recreance.  Is there a specific book and chapter, or is it a theory, or a WOB?

But anyways, I think this would also feel like a cop-out, or, at least, unsatisfying to me.  It feels like such a balance would be having-your-cake-and-eating-it-too for the humans.

The very start of the Stormlight Archive was the Heralds (sans Talenelat) breaking the Oathpact and leaving him to be tortured forever.  The first "proper" chapter was about Szeth, defining him as someone who does terrible things without regret because he doesn't consider himself responsible for his actions, and believes that he has no free will (so he has to do whatever his masters tell him).  Kaladin and Amaram are, to a large extent, defined by the moment that Amaram did what was expedient and seemed "practical/pragmatic" at the time.  I'd rather have the resolution of the series be people taking responsibility for their actions and the consequences of such, and making the hard-but-right choices, than have it be a balance between idealism and realism.

On 2/18/2021 at 3:40 PM, mathiau said:

It's possible we're not using the word "idealism" the same way. In Dawnshard Rysn and Nikli had a discussion about about imperfect solutions for an imperfect world, in my mind trying to forbid hazing rituals is idealism but trying to keep them manageable is not.

I think Honour would be okay with that level of non-idealism

See, I think we are using the word "idealism" in the same way.  I think you lose your idealism when you make these concessions to reality, when you see the world as the imperfect world it is rather than the perfect world it might (never) be, when you stop believing in perfect solutions.  It might be better in the long term, but I think it should disqualify you from at least the higher Ideals.

Honor/honor, in this series, isn't an objectively good morality, or even always a healthy one, any more than Preservation/preservation was in Mistborn, but it is a cause that, in the end, defines Roshar's heroes, what they do, and why they do it.  I find that a lot more engaging (especially in fiction) than any kind of reasonable worldview.

Honestly, having the Radiants (especially Skybreakers) and Spren learn that they need to make concessions to reality and adopt a nuanced view of things would be really depressing in my opinion, a loss of some of what made SA so different from reality, and different from a lot of other fiction.

 

Of course, I'm probably wrong about all of this, and whatever Mr. Sanderson does, it will almost certainly be brilliant and I'm sure that even if his resolution isn't what I would have chosen, it will be better than anything I could have come up with (that's why he's the author and I'm the fan).

Edited February 23, 2021 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Kyn]

2 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Honestly, having the Radiants (especially Skybreakers) and Spren learn that they need to make concessions to reality and adopt a nuanced view of things would be really depressing in my opinion, a loss of some of what made SA so different from reality, and different from a lot of other fiction.

The Knights Radiant are basically embodiments of the recognition that concessions to reality must be made and that things must be viewed with nuance and from different perspectives.

Since the Radiant Ideals are about acting on or living their Ideals, about enacting these Ideals in the real world rather than simply imagining or believing them, I don’t think the form of idealism that is limited to a nonexistent, imagined perfection is something the Radiants could subscribe to. The nature of their oaths requires them to make concessions to reality and accept and implement imperfect solutions.

Spoiler

Skybreakers explicitly swear themselves to an imperfect law because they can’t know what’s perfectly right. Yes, the current iteration of Skybreakers are pretty much zealots, but their leader at least is very cognizant of the imperfections behind their decidedly-pragmatic system. Windrunners are arguably one of the most idealistic orders, with Kaladin swearing to protect those he hates based on whether it is right, and even Syl admits that killing anybody isn’t something she wants but that it can be necessary in order to protect others. That’s a very nuanced and self-aware kind of idealism. Subjectivity and different interpretations rule for most of the Orders.

I think maybe you’re conflating specific types of realpolitik-style pragmatism (read as: jaded, cynical, and thinking it’s being rational but in reality exceptionally bad at taking actual consequences and irrational human behaviors into account) with realism?

 No belief system can be implemented absent realism, only envisioned. And to see the world as something perfect that it explicitly is not is to blind oneself and remove any ability to make the actual world better – which goes against the First Ideal. That kind of idealism would not enable, nor even permit, defending life, protecting the weak, or the utterly-realism-based path of determining the most just available means of achieving a goal.
 

Spoiler

That kind of disconnected-from-reality idealism would be anathema to the Radiant Orders, assuming Teft had any insight on the Immortal Words in ch. 59 of tWoK:

Quote

“Life before death,” Teft said, wagging a finger at Kaladin. “The Radiant seeks to defend life, always. He never kills unnecessarily, and never risks his own life for frivolous reasons. Living is harder than dying. The Radiant’s duty is to live.

“Strength before weakness. All men are weak at some time in their lives. The Radiant protects those who are weak, and uses his strength for others. Strength does not make one capable of rule; it makes one capable of service.”

Teft picked up spheres, putting them in his pouch. He held the last one for a second, then tucked it away too. “Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.”

 

 

Since each Knights Radiant Order is a distinct vision of what ideals are best and how they should be implemented, they epitomize how realism is necessary for moving idealism in theory into Ideals in action. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Forgive me for being ignorant, but I can't find where it was established that BAM being imprisoned or released had/has-had/will-have/has anything to do with deadeyes or the recreance.  Is there a specific book and chapter, or is it a theory, or a WOB?

Shallan mentioned that Kalak mentioned it (RoW 115):

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Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago—and the imprisoning of a specific spren.

This line from the Sibling slightly points to it too (RoW 49):

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I have … been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too.

Navani covered her shock. “You’re speaking of the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?”

Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 2/19/2021 at 2:56 PM, SturmOgre said:

Yes, we also know that they care for the dead on their own initiative (Way of Kings), and that they do have parental and familial instincts(Oathbringer).

It doesn't matter if they can't do anything with the pay, you pay them anyways and deduct food expenses as necessary. Not paying them makes it slavery, while paying puts it into a grayer area (It would still be bad though, as slaveform singers are unable to give any sort of informed consent).

Food and shelter cost more than labor, as the factory owners of the North discovered. Why do you think they started freeing their slaves?

If the people had to pay the Parshmen, then they would quickly have ‘fired’ them in exchange for cheap-but-intelligent labor. Or human slaves (who already get paid). Or refused to house and feed their parsh workers, instead paying them a minimal wage (equivalent to bridgemen) which would not be enough for them to subsist on - assuming they had the ability to use the money!

You either pay your workers OR you house and feed them. Doing both is actually pretty uncommon for a reason: once you take out food and shelter costs, there’s basically nothing left. Ask anyone who has ever lived paycheck to paycheck.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

2 hours ago, Kyn said:

The Knights Radiant are basically embodiments of the recognition that concessions to reality must be made and that things must be viewed with nuance and from different perspectives.

Since the Radiant Ideals are about acting on or living their Ideals, about enacting these Ideals in the real world rather than simply imagining or believing them, I don’t think the form of idealism that is limited to a nonexistent, imagined perfection is something the Radiants could subscribe to. The nature of their oaths requires them to make concessions to reality and accept and implement imperfect solutions.

  Reveal hidden contents

Skybreakers explicitly swear themselves to an imperfect law because they can’t know what’s perfectly right. Yes, the current iteration of Skybreakers are pretty much zealots, but their leader at least is very cognizant of the imperfections behind their decidedly-pragmatic system. Windrunners are arguably one of the most idealistic orders, with Kaladin swearing to protect those he hates based on whether it is right, and even Syl admits that killing anybody isn’t something she wants but that it can be necessary in order to protect others. That’s a very nuanced and self-aware kind of idealism. Subjectivity and different interpretations rule for most of the Orders.

I think maybe you’re conflating specific types of realpolitik-style pragmatism (read as: jaded, cynical, and thinking it’s being rational but in reality exceptionally bad at taking actual consequences and irrational human behaviors into account) with realism?

 No belief system can be implemented absent realism, only envisioned. And to see the world as something perfect that it explicitly is not is to blind oneself and remove any ability to make the actual world better – which goes against the First Ideal. That kind of idealism would not enable, nor even permit, defending life, protecting the weak, or the utterly-realism-based path of determining the most just available means of achieving a goal.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

That kind of disconnected-from-reality idealism would be anathema to the Radiant Orders, assuming Teft had any insight on the Immortal Words in ch. 59 of tWoK:

 

 

Since each Knights Radiant Order is a distinct vision of what ideals are best and how they should be implemented, they epitomize how realism is necessary for moving idealism in theory into Ideals in action. 

Well, that's just really depressing, then.  Every time you make a concession to reality, a part of your heart dies, and a bit of your soul fades.  Eventually, your compromises and your imperfect methods and the things you had to do to make the world as good as it is will result in the next generation having to oppose you and destroy what you've made to make something better/"better".  

 

There's a quote from a movie that has always stuck with me (it's too much of a spoiler for me to say what movie it's from, but the quote is pretty universal).  The context is that a horrific act of unjustified violence has been done by associates of Character 1 upon people that Character 2 was supposed to protect, but, because of other "greater good" considerations, Character 2 more or less abandoned -- and when Character 2 calls out Character 1, 1 points out 2's own complicity and claims that what happened was inevitable because:

Character 1:  We must work in the world, the world is thus.

Character 2:  No... thus have we made the world.  Thus have I made it.

 

What makes the Radiants special in my eyes is that they won't say things like "We must work in the world, the world is thus.", but they will say things like "Honor is dead... but I'll see what I can do.".

[SturmOgre]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Food and shelter cost more than labor, as the factory owners of the North discovered. Why do you think they started freeing their slaves?

If the people had to pay the Parshmen, then they would quickly have ‘fired’ them in exchange for cheap-but-intelligent labor. Or human slaves (who already get paid). Or refused to house and feed their parsh workers, instead paying them a minimal wage (equivalent to bridgemen) which would not be enough for them to subsist on - assuming they had the ability to use the money!

You either pay your workers OR you house and feed them. Doing both is actually pretty uncommon for a reason: once you take out food and shelter costs, there’s basically nothing left. Ask anyone who has ever lived paycheck to paycheck.

That clearly isn't universally true though, given the existence of company towns and other similar arrangements. And as for a more Rosharan example, we know that the manual labourers in the workcamps have some sort of shelter (and obviously eat). Manual labourers have been able to buy/rent shelter and food, as well as have enough left over for luxuries for long before social programs were implemented. 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

That clearly isn't universally true though, given the existence of company towns and other similar arrangements. And as for a more Rosharan example, we know that the manual labourers in the workcamps have some sort of shelter (and obviously eat). Manual labourers have been able to buy/rent shelter and food, as well as have enough left over for luxuries for long before social programs were implemented. 

You forget we live after several revelutions in farming after the technology period, as of the Roman Republic 80%  of income was spent on food.

[mathiau he/him]

10 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Well, that's just really depressing, then.  Every time you make a concession to reality, a part of your heart dies, and a bit of your soul fades.  Eventually, your compromises and your imperfect methods and the things you had to do to make the world as good as it is will result in the next generation having to oppose you and destroy what you've made to make something better/"better". 

Did you read the same post as me? Because I understood it in the exact opposite way you did

[SturmOgre]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You forget we live after several revelutions in farming after the technology period, as of the Roman Republic 80%  of income was spent on food.

As I pointed out in my last sentence, (free) manual labourers were always able to shelter, feed and entertain themselves from their pay in civilizations that used money.  In fact, the popinae of Ancient Rome were bars that catered directly to this demographic.

[animalia]

On 2/18/2021 at 10:31 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Well, if knowing that you're usurpers on the place you consider your native planet DOESN'T wreck all your idealism and confidence in the rightness of your cause, I'm not sure what will.

 

I mean, what secret could possibly be worse?  "The Shin are right, and you all are eternally condemned in the afterlife for stepping on stone"?

Maybe it’s because I live in the United States, but I don’t find the idea of being a non-native inhabitant of someplace shocking. Then again I am also quite aware that my country has a *long* way to go to live up to it’s ideals and that our founders weren’t perfect but just people doing the best they can.

Edited January 24, 2022 by animalia