Bejarden he/him Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 I don't know if this was already answered Demoux is a member of 17th shard and kelsier is the head of the GB a organization that actively recruits from them. And Demoux practily worships him Is Demoux a double agent for GB? 3
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: I don't know if this was already answered Demoux is a member of 17th shard and kelsier is the head of the GB a organization that actively recruits from them. And Demoux practily worships him Is Demoux a double agent for GB? Possibly. Or he’s genuinely an agent of the 17th Shard, who also happens to be on good terms with the GB’s boss. Kelsier isn’t about to force Demoux into joining his organization and Demoux isn’t well suited to them. Odds are Demoux joined the 17th Shard long before the GBs were an ‘organization.’ Kelsier probably keeps in contact though and Demoux probably ends up giving over far more information than he realizes... Why use a double agent when you can get a REAL agent to give you everything? 2
KSub Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 I agree with @Kingsdaughter613. Although we still don't know what Demoux is doing worldhopping 300 years after we last saw him. Good question though. I had pretty much forgot about that purelake scene.
Honorless he/him Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 Hey, it's entirely possible that Demoux now understands a lot more about the Cosmere and no longer has faith in Kelsier, and so joined the 17th Shard who're probably amongst the most non-violent, non-exploitation Worldhopping group. Or that Demoux now understands a lot more about the Cosmere and still has faith in Kelsier, and is indeed spying for him.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 16 minutes ago, Honorless said: Hey, it's entirely possible that Demoux now understands a lot more about the Cosmere and no longer has faith in Kelsier, and so joined the 17th Shard who're probably amongst the most non-violent, non-exploitation Worldhopping group. Or that Demoux now understands a lot more about the Cosmere and still has faith in Kelsier, and is indeed spying for him. Or understands more about the Cosmere and has faith in Kelsier as a person instead of a deity whom he is happy to call a friend. And is unaware that Kelsier is using him to spy on the 17th Shard.
GroundPetrel Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 It also could be that Kelsier's new crew has an undeserved bad rap...or that Kelsier has enough layers of propaganda out there that many believe they have an undeserved bad rap.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, GroundPetrel said: It also could be that Kelsier's new crew has an undeserved bad rap...or that Kelsier has enough layers of propaganda out there that many believe they have an undeserved bad rap. You mean like the members of this 17th Shard on opposing sides of the “Is Kelsier a hero or villain” debate? 1
GroundPetrel Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said: You mean like the members of this 17th Shard on opposing sides of the “Is Kelsier a hero or villain” debate? Yeah, something like that. Also from a reader's POV, we hear so much bad stuff about the Ghostbloods, but all they really seem to do is get blamed for stuff and exploit ties to white-collar crime. Going after Jasnah was the most evil thing they did and we still don't know their motivation or reasoning there.
KSub Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 8 hours ago, GroundPetrel said: Yeah, something like that. Also from a reader's POV, we hear so much bad stuff about the Ghostbloods, but all they really seem to do is get blamed for stuff and exploit ties to white-collar crime. Going after Jasnah was the most evil thing they did and we still don't know their motivation or reasoning there. We also know that Mraize is something of an independent contractor, so everything that happens on Roshar doesn't necessarily reflect the Ghostbloods as a whole. 2
teknopathetic he/him Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, KSub said: We also know that Mraize is something of an independent contractor, so everything that happens on Roshar doesn't necessarily reflect the Ghostbloods as a whole. Do we know that? He seems like he is still learning from his Babsk to become a District Manager of some sort. He has some autonomy but he's also worlds away from HQ. Edited January 29, 2021 by teknopathetic
KSub Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 26 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: Do we know that? He seems like he is still learning from his Babsk to become a District Manager of some sort. He has some autonomy but he's also worlds away from HQ. We do. Brandon talks about it on the latest Shardcast. The fact that he is on another planet is at least part of the reason he has that independence. If he were working on Scadrial I think he would be reigned in.
PleatherDuster Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 Could Demoux be 16? The number suggests a connection to Scadrial. And, it’s been a while, but I seem to recall Demoux was balding (which is how 16 was described).
dannnex male Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/29/2021 at 1:17 AM, GroundPetrel said: Going after Jasnah was the most evil thing they did *cough* that one carriage driver *cough* *cough* also everyone Shallan’s father did *cough*
Bejarden he/him Posted February 2, 2021 Author Posted February 2, 2021 24 minutes ago, Dannex said: *cough* that one carriage driver *cough* *cough* also everyone Shallan’s father did *cough* That wasn't the ghostblood it was their members acting independently
dannnex male Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 Just now, Bejardin1250 said: That wasn't the ghostblood it was their members acting independently Seems like those are the same thing tbh. Especially the carriage driver one, where it was done by a ghostblood for ghostblood reasons. Sure mraize is somewhat freelance, but he still has the tattoo, and he’s trusted enough to train new members of the organization, so I think his actions pretty solidly represent the Gbs as a whole. You could argue this point about Lin Davar, but the Ghostbloods still let him into their organization. A brutal, abusive, not entirely mentally stable person. And the ghostbloods welcomed him with open arms. Doesn’t seem like the most honorable organization, does it?
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dannex said: Seems like those are the same thing tbh. Especially the carriage driver one, where it was done by a ghostblood for ghostblood reasons. Sure mraize is somewhat freelance, but he still has the tattoo, and he’s trusted enough to train new members of the organization, so I think his actions pretty solidly represent the Gbs as a whole. You could argue this point about Lin Davar, but the Ghostbloods still let him into their organization. A brutal, abusive, not entirely mentally stable person. And the ghostbloods welcomed him with open arms. Doesn’t seem like the most honorable organization, does it? The GBs near Kell are rather different than the ones outside his direct influence. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider how he works.
Bejarden he/him Posted February 2, 2021 Author Posted February 2, 2021 Just now, Dannex said: Seems like those are the same thing tbh. Especially the carriage driver one, where it was done by a ghostblood for ghostblood reasons. Sure mraize is somewhat freelance, but he still has the tattoo, and he’s trusted enough to train new members of the organization, so I think his actions pretty solidly represent the Gbs as a whole. You could argue this point about Lin Davar, but the Ghostbloods still let him into their organization. A brutal, abusive, not entirely mentally stable person. And the ghostbloods welcomed him with open arms. Doesn’t seem like the most honorable organization, does it? I'm not saying their honorable they are just not evil organization their members on roshar are evil mraize did not tell the gb to kill the carage driver it was semi implied permission and I doubt they care what Lin davar does with his family
dannnex male Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 Just now, Bejardin1250 said: and I doubt they care what Lin davar does with his family But they should care about what kind of a person he is. Could you picture the Kel we know in Mistborn letting Lin Davar into his crew? 2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: The GBs near Kell are rather different than the ones outside his direct influence. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider how he works. I think only time will tell how true this is. I personally would not be surprised if Kel is a completely different person at this point.
Bejarden he/him Posted February 2, 2021 Author Posted February 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, Dannex said: But they should care about what kind of a person he is. Could you picture the Kel we know in Mistborn letting Lin Davar into his crew? I think only time will tell how true this is. I personally would not be surprised if Kel is a completely different person at this point. On the first point he only abuses his family in private he puts up an act for e/o else On the second point Im not sure but did Brandon Sanderson confirm it in the shardcast but your right only time will tell
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Dannex said: But they should care about what kind of a person he is. Could you picture the Kel we know in Mistborn letting Lin Davar into his crew? I think only time will tell how true this is. I personally would not be surprised if Kel is a completely different person at this point. I would. We haven’t seen him in a mainline Mistborn book since TFE, so any change would have to be onscreen. Not everyone reads other series or the WoB. So whatever Kell is now has to be a natural outgrowth of TFE Kelsier. Also, I picked up on the GB/Kelsier connection due to personality alone in 2014. So I don’t quite get why anyone would think any of this is OOC for him; it’s EXACTLY what he would do. There’s a reason some of us picked up on it in WoR. The GBs are very reminiscent of MB crew in a way I can’t quite explain. With regard to Lin though: indications are that he was recruited BEFORE he became abusive. I don’t think it’s reasonable for Kelsier to expected to know that Lady Davar would attempt to murder her daughter, Shallan to kill her mom, and Lin to take the blame, the stress and trauma of which would lead Lin to become abusive. And it’s unclear how much the GBs knew of the abuse once it started, and Kelsier’s opinions are likely warped by being raised in a society where beating your kids to near death was normal. And Kelsier doesn’t abandon his friends or crew members. BTW: guys, keep in mind the society where Kelsier grew up. He’s not going to consider a 15 & 1/2 year old a child if she can fight. He might not agree with people beating their kids, but he’s not going to see it as horrific in the way we do. He’s going to see the world through the lens of the Final Empire. One of the big differences in perspective is that Rosharan society is much better than TFE Scadrial’s. From a Rosharan perspective beating your kids is abnormal. From a TFE Scadrian one it’s a standard right of passage for Noble children. And Kelsier grew up in the latter world. 1
StanLemon Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 I personally think a part of the problem is Iyatil. While not a native Scardrian, she comes from Hunter descent and was certainly the person who cultivated his hunter mentality. We don't know much about her culture and what they consider acceptable. She might see nothing wrong with his brutality while Kelsier might and as she's the middleman between them it likely leads to Mraize being able to be the evil man he is. She herself from what we've seen is fairly reasonable and while somewhat annoyed, willingly went with Veil's nonlethal plan to see Taln. Let's also take account of the only other Ghostblood that we have seen in a real capacity. Kabsal. He was a member who actually was nice and kind to Shallan and while he used and manipulated her he never wanted her to get hurt in the process. 1
KSub Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 I'm surprised so many people are in the Kelsier hate camp. He's on a different world and can't come to Roshar. He mostly has to accept what the Rosharan agents do and trust that he is getting the relevant information. Iyatil could be one of those middle managers who just want to impress the boss. Maybe as far as she is concerned the bottom line is mraize is getting things done.
dannnex male Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 20 minutes ago, KSub said: I'm surprised so many people are in the Kelsier hate camp. He's on a different world and can't come to Roshar. He mostly has to accept what the Rosharan agents do and trust that he is getting the relevant information. Iyatil could be one of those middle managers who just want to impress the boss. Maybe as far as she is concerned the bottom line is mraize is getting things done. I don’t think anyone is in the Kelsier Hate camp, I love Kel and I think most people do too. I think you’re misinterpreting the divide of “Villian!Kel VS Hero!Kel” as “I hate Kel VS I love Kel”. 1
KSub Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 35 minutes ago, Dannex said: I don’t think anyone is in the Kelsier Hate camp, I love Kel and I think most people do too. I think you’re misinterpreting the divide of “Villian!Kel VS Hero!Kel” as “I hate Kel VS I love Kel”. Fair enough. I should have said people had so little faith in Kelsier. Side note: what's up with Felt? Is he a Ghostblood? A Kandra?
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 1 hour ago, KSub said: Fair enough. I should have said people had so little faith in Kelsier. Side note: what's up with Felt? Is he a Ghostblood? A Kandra? Felt is a spy for hire. I think he’s working with the GBs at present, but who knows.
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