Voidbinding solved

[Halyo_Alex]

56 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The light seems to be how he sees the future.

Temporally Illuminating instead of Physically Illuminating.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

No offence but I'm really curious how you could look at the light balls and think Renarin's Illumination was fully replaced by his vision

Because he causes impressions when healing. As far as we can tell, Lightweavers create physical images, that is you cannot touch them, but they would show on film. What Renarin makes seems to arise in the mind of the observer, like his "void" is making pictures that are visible, but not fully real.

[mathiau]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

Because he causes impressions when healing.

I don't see how the fact he causes impressions while healing has anything too do with that

Quote

As far as we can tell, Lightweavers create physical images, that is you cannot touch them, but they would show on film. What Renarin makes seems to arise in the mind of the observer, like his "void" is making pictures that are visible, but not fully real.

The fact both Moash and Kal saw the same thing seems to indicate the opposite

And anyway if his illusion only exists in your mind I don't see how it would mean it's not the Void of Illumination, you could have Void of Illumination -> mind illusion+malatium side effect, Void of Progression -> healing+temporal effects and the visions as an hybrid Void

[+Bzhydack]

For me its more like "Spiritual Illumiantion". Every Surge has Physical and Spiritual aspect, and in Renarin's case Physical Aspect is much smaller than Spiritual one. So hisSpiritual Aspect of Illumination need to be larger (to match Investment). So he is able to show others their Spiritual Ideal (or something closer to it) and see ways to reach it as possible futures.

[+Oltux72]

17 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And anyway if his illusion only exists in your mind I don't see how it would mean it's not the Void of Illumination, you could have Void of Illumination -> mind illusion+malatium side effect, Void of Progression -> healing+temporal effects and the visions as an hybrid Void

1. Voidbringers are known to see the future. This must predate enlightening Radiant spren.
2. His Progression operates totally normally. Navani would know if it were otherwise.

Hence this possibility would require the Void of Illmination to do two unrelated things and it would require the Void and Surge of Progression to be indistinguishable.

[apepi]

I do think the unmade, Renarin and the Fused aren't great examples.

Some of the Unmade seem to be more pieces of other shards corrupted by Odium.

Renarin is super wierd with kind of using the bond powers of radiants but also using a radiant spren corrupted by an unmade(which again is wacky themselves).

Then we got the Fused, who possibly could have been some of the original 'radiants' that got power from honor/Cultivation, but again corrupted by Odium.

 

So like... Odium loves to just corrupt other people's investiture and make it his own.

 

I don't mean to dismiss your work, but Odium loves to work this way. I honestly am not sure what his actual powers are, given most of his army we have seen are more corrupted people than seemingly his own powers?

 

Would corrupting someone's investiture give them different powers? Would it grant the corrupted powers of the one corrupting them or just change how they work?

 

We really don't have these answers I don't think?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, apepi said:

I do think the unmade, Renarin and the Fused aren't great examples.

Some of the Unmade seem to be more pieces of other shards corrupted by Odium.

Renarin is super wierd with kind of using the bond powers of radiants but also using a radiant spren corrupted by an unmade(which again is wacky themselves).

Then we got the Fused, who possibly could have been some of the original 'radiants' that got power from honor/Cultivation, but again corrupted by Odium.

 

So like... Odium loves to just corrupt other people's investiture and make it his own.

 

I don't mean to dismiss your work, but Odium loves to work this way. I honestly am not sure what his actual powers are, given most of his army we have seen are more corrupted people than seemingly his own powers?

 

Would corrupting someone's investiture give them different powers? Would it grant the corrupted powers of the one corrupting them or just change how they work?

 

We really don't have these answers I don't think?

I'll adress this in three main points

Unmade, Renarin, and Fused.

On the Unmade they are more often than not the source of Voidbinding

Spoiler

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

On Renarin we know he is Voidbinding

 

And on the fused we know by their own admission that they use Surgebinding.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, apepi said:

I do think the unmade, Renarin and the Fused aren't great examples.

The Fused are Surgebinders. We got it from Brandon. Hence also the red eyes. They are using an alien system: Surgebinding.

3 hours ago, apepi said:

Would corrupting someone's investiture give them different powers? Would it grant the corrupted powers of the one corrupting them or just change how they work?

But Renarin is not corrupted. No red eyes. The simplest explanation is that he is using a Shard's genuine magic system, in this case Odium's, hence he is voidbindung in seeing the future.

3 hours ago, apepi said:

 

We really don't have these answers I don't think?

1. We do have the chart
2. We know sentient Voidspren exist
3. We do know that Voidspren can become fabrials but are extremely reluctant to do so.

What else but becoming a Voidbinder should be the result of bonding a Voidspren?

[mathiau]

14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Voidbringers are known to see the future. This must predate enlightening Radiant spren

And? We don't know how Voidbringer used to get their Voids it's perfectly possible some managed to get both Illumination and Progression at the same time

Quote

1. His Progression operates totally normally. Navani would know if it were otherwise.

Come on, you can't say that after you brought up the perfected self impressions

Quote

Hence this possibility would require the Void of Illmination to do two unrelated things and it would require the Void and Surge of Progression to be indistinguishable.

First we know of Surges doing two unrelated things (Adhesion and Progression) and second what about the possibility of future sight replacing the Growth par of Progression?

9 hours ago, apepi said:

Would corrupting someone's investiture give them different powers? Would it grant the corrupted powers of the one corrupting them or just change how they work?

No, just red eyes

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Fused are Surgebinders. We got it from Brandon. Hence also the red eyes. They are using an alien system: Surgebinding.

But Renarin is not corrupted. No red eyes. The simplest explanation is that he is using a Shard's genuine magic system, in this case Odium's, hence he is voidbindung in seeing the future.

I was about too answer that Renarin and Lift are also using the wrong light for their powers (which is basically the definition Brandon gave us of red eyes investiture corruption) and don't get red eyes. But then I realised if Surgebinding is of Honour and Cultivation and Voidbinding is of Honour and Odium they a kind of not.

Quote

What else but becoming a Voidbinder should be the result of bonding a Voidspren?

Some seem to believe it'd make you a Surgebinder-Voidbinder hybrid

Edited May 18, 2021 by mathiau

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

And? We don't know how Voidbringer used to get their Voids it's perfectly possible some managed to get both Illumination and Progression at the same time

Yes. That Voidbinders are known for millenia to predict the future merely tells us that seeing the future cannot be the resonance of a new combination.

By that information alone it is still possible that Renarin would have four powers and possibly their resonances. Or he could show two powers and a resonance. To distinguish these possibilities, we need to look at further information. But we can rule out that his futuresight is his resonance.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Come on, you can't say that after you brought up the perfected self impressions

Sure, why not. Where is the contradiction?

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

First we know of Surges doing two unrelated things (Adhesion and Progression) and second what about the possibility of future sight replacing the Growth par of Progression?

Well, no. We are seeing two ways to use the same underlying power. And Navani is no fool. She would know that.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I was about too answer that Renarin and Lift are also using the wrong light for their powers (which is basically the definition Brandon gave us of red eyes investiture

I am afraid it cannot be that simple. Regals and Fused always have red eyes, whether they are using their powers or not. The mere ability is causing it.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

corruption) and don't get red eyes. But then I realised if Surgebinding is of Honour and Cultivation and Voidbinding is of Honour and Odium they a kind of not.

We do not know what Voidbinding is of.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Some seem to believe it'd make you a Surgebinder-Voidbinder hybrid

Then it would need to make you something not different from an enlightened spren.

[bmcclure7]

On 1/25/2021 at 3:07 PM, mathiau said:

Lift knows about Growth, I'm pretty sure she was using it before she tried using regrowth and she once asked Windle whether eating plants she grow would give her more or less light than it uses, his answer was "normally yes but with you everything is weird". She probably don't know all about Growth since she never tried to make herself more buff like the Altered Ones.

She was. Breaths a gaseous investiture not souls.

Wrong  Brandon Sanderson confirmed that was an extra piece of your soul.  Which is why losing your breath can result in health issues and depression.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong  Brandon Sanderson confirmed that was an extra piece of your soul.  Which is why losing your breath can result in health issues and depression.

The soul is investiture, so you are both right.

[Wandering Shade]

You all really are overthinking this, I think.

Renarin is something new. A Knight Radiant who can Voidbind. The fact that he can Voidbind messes with his Radiant powers and makes them act in weird ways. Renarin's ability to see the future is 100% Voidbinding. He might be accessing it with a combination of Illumination and Progression, or he might just be using it directly, but the ability itself is Voidbinding. It's not his resonance, because those are things like a Windrunner's incredible capacity for Squires and a Lightweaver's mnemonic memory and seeing the future doesn't feel like anything related to that.

I'm fairly certain that what Renarin can do is 1) Illumination, 2) Progression, 3) [Insert-name-of-Voidbinding-ability-here].

Renarin seems to be both a Surgebinder and a Voidbinder in the same way that you can be a Misting and a Ferring. Would you call that a Surge-Voidbinder? I dunno, that sounds dumb to me lol. I think he's just both.

Love the analysis of all the things the Unmade do and what might or might not be Voidbinding though. That's good theorycrafting.

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

I'm fairly certain that what Renarin can do is 1) Illumination, 2) Progression, 3) [Insert-name-of-Voidbinding-ability-here].

1. Then why does Navani say that he cannot do Illumination?
2. Why does he have two Surges but only one Void?

6 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Renarin seems to be both a Surgebinder and a Voidbinder in the same way that you can be a Misting and a Ferring. Would you call that a Surge-Voidbinder? I dunno, that sounds dumb to me lol. I think he's just both.

Reasonable. But what are his powers?

 

[Wandering Shade]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Then why does Navani say that he cannot do Illumination?
2. Why does he have two Surges but only one Void?

Reasonable. But what are his powers?

Those are fair questions.
1. He can use Illumination, it's just messed up because he also has a Void. But if you said he has V-Illumination, I disagree but understand the theory.
2. Why wouldn't he have two surges and only 1 void? Lol I know that's a bad answer. He might have a second Void, he just hasn't learned it yet. Kaladin only used Adhesion for a while before he learned how to use Gravitation.

Well, I think I just explained that. He has Illumination which has been heavily disrupted by the presence of his Voidbinding, Progression which has also probably been altered but not as much if it has, Foresight from his Voidbinding which I think he's using a combo of Progression and Illumination to access, and maybe one other Void that he just hasn't learned yet.

[+Oltux72]

48 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

Well, I think I just explained that. He has Illumination which has been heavily disrupted by the presence of his Voidbinding, Progression which has also probably been altered but not as much if it has, Foresight from his Voidbinding which I think he's using a combo of Progression and Illumination to access, and maybe one other Void that he just hasn't learned yet.

That kind of replaces problems. Why are Progession and Illumination affected to different degrees?

[Wandering Shade]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

That kind of replaces problems. Why are Progression and Illumination affected to different degrees?

That's a good question and one that my theory can only give a shrug as an answer to. This is a fair flaw in my theory. I'd say that different surges react to Voidbinding in different ways, but that's again something of a cop-out.

I'm not going to try and say my theory is correct, I'm more arguing that its difficult to really fully understand what's going on with Renarin, his Surgebinging and his Voidbinding yet. We know that he is a Kight Radiant and a Voidbinder, that he can do limited things with his Illumination, he can heal people with his Progression, and he can see the future through Voidbinding. But are the surges that he's using Void versions of those surges, or are they Surges that have just been affected by the presence of his Void(s)? I dunno and I'm not sure there's a good way to find out. I personally think its the later, but I look forward to anyone who can present a theory that changes my mind.

Thanks for these questions, it really fires up my theorycrafting brain.

[apepi]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:56 PM, Oltux72 said:

The Fused are Surgebinders. We got it from Brandon. Hence also the red eyes. They are using an alien system: Surgebinding.

But Renarin is not corrupted. No red eyes. The simplest explanation is that he is using a Shard's genuine magic system, in this case Odium's, hence he is voidbindung in seeing the future.

1. We do have the chart
2. We know sentient Voidspren exist
3. We do know that Voidspren can become fabrials but are extremely reluctant to do so.

What else but becoming a Voidbinder should be the result of bonding a Voidspren?

Been thinking about this. Either world/location matter a lot for a shard's powerset, perhaps Odium's thing is to kind of taking another's shard's powerset, or he is just choosing not to use his own powerset.

I think I am leaning towards more the former currently. It would explain a lot of things for me.

[animalia]

Interesting idea. I wonder what will happen if Renarin can balance his surges and his Voids?

 

note: I am assuming they should be balanced.

[+Oltux72]

On 7.1.2022 at 9:02 AM, apepi said:

Been thinking about this. Either world/location matter a lot for a shard's powerset, perhaps Odium's thing is to kind of taking another's shard's powerset, or he is just choosing not to use his own powerset.

He is at least not averse to it.

On 7.1.2022 at 9:02 AM, apepi said:

I think I am leaning towards more the former currently. It would explain a lot of things for me.

Yet Renarin's eyes are not red. That needs to be explained.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet Renarin's eyes are not red. That needs to be explained.

Glys is though.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Frustration

[animalia]

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Gyls is though.

Who is Gyls?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, animalia said:

Who is Gyls?

Ack I mean Glys

renarin's spren.

[+Oltux72]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Gyls is though.

Glys has been modified. True Voidspren like Ulim are not red. All the problems go away if you take Renarin for a Voidbinder and a Surgebinder.

[mathiau]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Glys has been modified. True Voidspren like Ulim are not red. All the problems go away if you take Renarin for a Voidbinder and a Surgebinder.

It doesn't. It explains why his eyes aren't red while using Progression but not why they aren't while using Illumination

It also doesn't explains why Lift can use Lifelight and Sibling Boundsmith can use Towerlight without red eyes