Calling Odium+Honour War could be a mistake

[mathiau he/him]

So, we've been calling the combination of Odium and Honour War because it's the name of it's rhythm, there's a few reasons it could be wrong.

Firstly Navani called the rhythm of the tower "Rhythm of Science" and it's almost impossible Honour+Cultivation would be Science, Science would be composed of at least Cultviation and Invention, of course it could just be that Navani's instincts are not as good as Raboniel's. Every one seems to disagrae with me on that point, which mean Brandon probably does to.

Secondly, the Rhythm used by Venli to move Voidlight, which should therefore be the pure tone of Odium, is called "Rhythm of prayers" (chapter 67)

Thirdly, these two WoBs

Quote

chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

Quote

Shallan's Ward

While Sazed holds Preservation and Ruin, could his intent change from Harmony to Discord?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

If we consider there's one intent per rhythm, this makes no rusting sense. The closest we can get would be that, while Sazed is in control, it's possible for harmony (or at least one of it's half)

to be transformed in some kind of anti-shard and this possibility still mean there are at least two possibility, four if we accept the Preservation+anti-Ruin and Ruin+anti-Preservation ones (by the way, I suggest calling them Preservation - Ruin and Ruin - Preservation, like in Preservation minus Ruin)

Actually, Harmony being Preservation - Ruin would explain why Preservation and Ruin could act while together and why Sazed said he was searching for "Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A … sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill" like he did not embody both Preservation and Ruin

 

Anyway, back to the topic of Odium+Honour, even of the 'normal' way to fuse them could indeed be War, it seems there are between two and three other possibilities

 

Links to theories in the answers

1. @Honorless giving another interpretation of how two shards can fuse in different way

2. @Elegy saying why War would more likely be Dominion + Odium, the same argument seems to work for War = Dominion + Ruin and War = Dominion + Ruin + Odium

Edited January 1, 2021 by mathiau

[+Oltux72 he/him]

22 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Firstly Navani called the rhythm of the tower "Rhythm of Science" and there's no way Honour+Cultivation would be Science, Science would be composed of at least Cultviation and Invention, of course it could just be that Navani's instincts are not as good as Raboniel's.

That's Engineering.

[mathiau he/him]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

That's Engineering.

Which is a part of science. But you're right it's possible Brandon would see things differently

[Darth_Hel]

I think Science makes sense depending what you take as the essence of each shard. For it to be Science then the Essence of Honour is the rules like the scientific method. The part of Cultivation it takes is more complicated, taking both the advancement and the culling aspects.  So, it would be saying that advancing using a set of rules to continue good methods and cull bad ones is Science.

[mathiau he/him]

41 minutes ago, Darth_Hel said:

I think Science makes sense depending what you take as the essence of each shard. For it to be Science then the Essence of Honour is the rules like the scientific method. The part of Cultivation it takes is more complicated, taking both the advancement and the culling aspects.  So, it would be saying that advancing using a set of rules to continue good methods and cull bad ones is Science.

I see your point, and it's probably the reason Navani called it Rhythm of Science, still science seems incomplete without invention, it's conceivable what I'm is just larger than what most people would call science, which would probably be Honour+Cultivation+Invention

[Leuthie]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Which is a part of science. But you're right it's possible Brandon would see things differently

No no no no. I'm an engineer. I make no hypotheses, nor do I test them. I solve present problems, not create future ones. If my solutions work, I move on to the next problem to solve, not linger on the old one making sure my solution is the only one or the best one. 

Engineering is invention. Engineering uses the knowledge provided by science as a tool, but engineering isn't part of science.

Quote

I see your point, and it's probably the reason Navani called it Rhythm of Science, still science seems incomplete without invention, it's conceivable what I'm is just larger than what most people would call science, which would probably be Honour+Cultivation+Invention

Science is not invention. While performing experiments to test a hypothesis might require inventive solutions, those solutions are in service of discovering knowledge. The inventions used in experimentation are often developed by engineers, who aren't scientists. And these inventions are thrown away by the scientists when they move beyond that particular endeavor. They may be picked up by others (particularly engineers) to be used for other purposes. But the goals of science are the edification of knowledge, not the creation of things.

Cultivation + Honor = Growth + Purpose. Growth + Purpose = Science.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Leuthie

[mathiau he/him]

12 hours ago, Leuthie said:

No no no no. I'm an engineer. I make no hypotheses, nor do I test them. I solve present problems, not create future ones.

I'm a physicist, albeit a very new one, often I make no hypothesis but I expand over the ones other people did (well apart from hypotheses of the type "temperature is small compared to that specific one" but if you count those, then you do hypotheses too").

Also don't engineers create prototypes to test if what they're doing work?

Quote

If my solutions work, I move on to the next problem to solve, not linger on the old one making sure my solution is the only one or the best one.

Which is also what we do.

Quote

Engineering is invention. Engineering uses the knowledge provided by science as a tool, but engineering isn't part of science.Science is not invention. While performing experiments to test a hypothesis might require inventive solutions, those solutions are in service of discovering knowledge. The inventions used in experimentation are often developed by engineers, who aren't scientists. And these inventions are thrown away by the scientists when they move beyond that particular endeavor. They may be picked up by others (particularly engineers) to be used for other purposes. But the goals of science are the edification of knowledge, not the creation of things.

Does Mathematicians invent their theories or do they discover them? It's a point of dissension among them, my point of view is they invent them. If you think the opposite then I guess it could make sense to have science without invention.

The relationship between engineers and physicists was described quite differently to me, for example in the begging of the time of lasers, experimenter physicists had lasers they'd use daily for different experiments but needed to be readjusted for half an hour every morning so they could function. As soon as engineers tried making lasers, they had made that could be turned on and off with just a switch, their only clients were physicists. It seems to me like engineers picked that up because physicists wouldn't throw it away.

Quote

Cultivation + Honor = Growth + Purpose. Growth + Purpose = Science.

If you remove engineering of science, it's only purpose is to continue growing, which is already something in Cultviation.

 

Anyway, I removed the science!=Honour+Cutivation point

[Honorless he/him]

Look at it this way: Honor and Odium are the biggest causes of war and the biggest drivers of war. You hate an enemy or you think something worth fighting for. It's not just literal war but also conflict in general. That's why Honor + Odium = War makes sense.

It also fits how a balance between Ruin and Preservation can be called Harmony. The internal conflict between hatred and desire to take the honorable path, the mind's war.

Same with Honor + Cultivation = Science. Honor is order and structure and unified code. Cultivation is nature and growth and necessity and progress. You can combine these ideas in many ways to get the ordering of nature, growth and progress via understanding the fundamental structure of nature. Science is a valid interpretation of their combined Intent.

[mathiau he/him]

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Look at it this way: Honor and Odium are the biggest causes of war and the biggest drivers of war. You hate an enemy or you think something worth fighting for. It's not just literal war but also conflict in general. That's why Honor + Odium = War makes sense.

It also fits how a balance between Ruin and Preservation can be called Harmony. The internal conflict between hatred and desire to take the honorable path, the mind's war.

Same with Honor + Cultivation = Science. Honor is order and structure and unified code. Cultivation is nature and growth and necessity and progress. You can combine these ideas in many ways to get the ordering of nature, growth and progress via understanding the fundamental structure of nature. Science is a valid interpretation of their combined Intent.

Honestly, it would absolutely not surprise me if Honour + Odium is indeed War. It's just

If I understand what you say, you think that if the vessel is using Honour and Odium to further each other's goal, you get external conflict; and if you use them to temper each other's intent, you get internal conflict. Is that what you meant? It would make sense but this two possibility would have two different names, probably War or Conflict for the first and maybe Betterment for the latter? Betterment would make more sense as Honour+Cultivation but I don't have any better idea.

Also, while I can see how Preservation and Ruin tempering each other gives Harmony, I fail to see how Preservation and Ruin furthering each other's goal would give Discord?

[Honorless he/him]

46 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also, while I can see how Preservation and Ruin tempering each other gives Harmony, I fail to see how Preservation and Ruin furthering each other's goal would give Discord?

That's just the thing, they can't further each other, only counterbalance one another. Hence, Harmony or Discord.

[Elegy he/him]

So, first off, I definitely agree. It definitely works as a short-cut when talking about the hypothetical combination, so I don't think it's wrong to use it (it should just not be used as if it was canon). It's a stretch from the name of the Rhythm of the actual Shard name. Just like Towerlight, Stormlight and Lifelight are not named after their Shards. As with those, calling the Rhythm War makes sense for the characters who name it in-world. But I don't think that means much for the combination of the two Shards. I don't think the components work for that. Not when there's a Shard like Dominion around, which Brandon called "Conquest" in another context. I can't see why such a thing would not be part of a Shard of War. If anything, it could be a combination of Odium and Dominion. Honor doesn't make much sense in that mix, since there's nothing honorable about war.

And that's basically the point of the whole story. As a teen, Kaladin thought the war on the Shattered Plains was fought by honorable men. Then he got there and realized there was no Honor whatsoever in what the Alethi did there. It was just greedy men quarreling over gemhearts. Dalinar thought the fight of the Heralds in the Desolations was honorable, but when he saw a vision of the Last Desolation in Oathbringer, he noted that it was just another war after all, just people killing each other. The fact that there is no Honor in War is so important for the whole point of the Stormlight Archive, I would be disappointed to find out that they are canonically this closely related in the end.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Elegy

[mathiau he/him]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

That's just the thing, they can't further each other, only counterbalance one another. Hence, Harmony or Discord.

Makes sense, there would therefore be up to three possible combinations per shard pair, one where the further each goals, one where the temper each other, and they fight for dominance and the total is chaotically one or the other.

34 minutes ago, Elegy said:

So, first off, I definitely agree. It definitely works as a short-cut when talking about the hypothetical combination, so I don't think it's wrong to use it (it should just not be used as if it was canon). But it's a stretch from the Rhythm of the actual Shard name. Just like Towerlight, Stormlight and Lifelight are not named after their Shards. As with those, calling the Rhythm War makes sense for the characters who name it in-world. But I don't think that means much for the combination of the two Shards. I don't think the components work for that. Not when there's a Shard like Dominion around, which Brandon called "Conquest" in another context. I can't see why such a thing would not be part of a Shard of War. If anything, it could be a combination of Odium and Dominion. Honor doesn't make much sense in that mix, since there's nothing honorable about war.

And that's basically the point of the whole story. As a teen, Kaladin thought the war on the Shattered Plains was fought by honorable men. Then he got there and realized there was no Honor whatsoever in what the Alethi did there. It was just greedy men quarreling over gemhearts. Dalinar thought the fight of the Heralds in the Desolations was honorable, but when he saw a vision of the Last Desolation in Oathbringer, he noted that it was just another war after all, just people killing each other. The fact that there is no Honor in War is so important for the whole point of the Stormlight Archive, I would be disappointed to find out that they are canonically this closely related in the end.

War can be started for honourable reason, be war is not honourable, I see. Odium + Honour furthering each goals would be Confict, Judgment or Retribution, not War.

It's seems possible War would be Dominion + Ruin instead of Dominion + Odium, or all three.

Edited January 1, 2021 by mathiau

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

In the thread elsewhere about Kaladin's glowing eyes, I said that I think you could call the Shard combination of Honor and Odium = Vengeance. Right before that scene, Vyre tells the Pursuer not to touch the grieving Kaladin lest he waken him to vengeance and that made me think of it. Hatred (Odium) over a wrong done to you, an oath broken, etc leads to seeking vengeance. Also how people would set up a duel to correct some slight, a way of channeling hate into an orderly format. I do think this still fits with calling it War however, as often wars are started out of these same vengeance motives, and War typically has a rules of engagement and formality and strategy/orderliness that channels the hate/passion as a tool to an end vs chaos/rioting. 

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

I thought it was fairly obvious that it was called the Rhythm of War because the two scholars who came up with it were on opposite sides of a war.

As other people pointed out, you only have to look at Way of Kings to see that War is not inherently honourable and frankly I think it's really problematic to pretend that it is. I mean, people are going around saying Dalinar will ascend to become the Shard of War and I'm just thinking 'you do remember what happened the last time he was consumed by the idea of war, right?'

Edited January 6, 2021 by jamesbondsmith

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

1 hour ago, jamesbondsmith said:

I thought it was fairly obvious that it was called the Rhythm of War because the two scholars who came up with it were on opposite sides of a war.

As other people pointed out, you only have to look at Way of Kings to see that War is not inherently honourable and frankly I think it's really problematic to pretend that it is. I mean, people are going around saying Dalinar will ascend to become the Shard of War and I'm just thinking 'you do remember what happened the last time he was consumed by the idea of war, right?'

I agree. We shouldn't assume that an Honor+Odium shard would have the intent of War, and as a matter of fact, an intent such as "war" would be antithetical to half of the shard's original intent, Honor. War is not honorable inherently. It would be impossible for a shard with the intent of War to act honorably. Starting wars willy-nilly, or based on passion is not an honorable thing in the slightest. 

War is only one action of thousands that some intent which was both Honorable and Odious could take to fulfil it's nature. Why would it claim sole ownership over the intent of the two powers? War is just as valid of an intent as 'Protection' could be. (And I don't find that to be a very valid Intent for a shard like this for obvious reasons.)

I think a way more Valid idea for an Intent that combines Honor and Odium is something like Retribution. Retribution is something that can't exist without either Honor or Odium. It also seems way more like an Intent than "War" does.

Of course, "Harmony" isn't exactly related to Preservation or Ruin as we know. Harmony could exist between many intents, so maybe these names are far less important or specific than we make them out to be?

Edited January 6, 2021 by Lunu’anaki

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, jamesbondsmith said:

I thought it was fairly obvious that it was called the Rhythm of War because the two scholars who came up with it were on opposite sides of a war.

As other people pointed out, you only have to look at Way of Kings to see that War is not inherently honourable and frankly I think it's really problematic to pretend that it is.

It seemed to me like she had felt it's name when she saw the light

5 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

think a way more Valid idea for an Intent that combines Honor and Odium is something like Retribution. Retribution is something that can't exist without either Honor or Odium. It also seems way more like an Intent than "War" does.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "seems way more like an Intent", Odium seems even less like an intent than War

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

Even single shards can change intent with a new vessel.

[mathiau he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Even single shards can change intent with a new vessel.

You're sure? Preservation seemed kind of constant

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

You're sure? Preservation seemed kind of constant

It's not as big as I thought but here are some WoB

Spoiler

Doombrigade (paraphrased)

If an individual has a mental sickness, such as multiple personalities, can that affect a Shard's intent if picked up by him or her?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that is possible.

Doombrigade (paraphrased)

Is it possible that Autonomy is one such, and has multiple personalities?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 17, 2019)

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

 

 

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It's not as big as I thought but here are some WoB

  Hide contents

Doombrigade (paraphrased)

If an individual has a mental sickness, such as multiple personalities, can that affect a Shard's intent if picked up by him or her?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that is possible.

Doombrigade (paraphrased)

Is it possible that Autonomy is one such, and has multiple personalities?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 17, 2019)

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

 

 

If I understand, not enough to change name, but still a change.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

15 hours ago, mathiau said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "seems way more like an Intent", Odium seems even less like an intent than War

I guess there's a debate to be made there as well, now that I think of it.

The more we talk about this the more I'm convinced that the Shard's Vessels named themselves, and the powers are more... ambiguous... than a single word can describe.