Not sure how gay Singer ships would work

[Necessary Eagle]

Putting this is the RoW sections because Rlain/Renarin and Kaladin/Leshwi.

Okay! So, Singer sexuality. In every form but mateform they pretty much have no sexual desire whatsoever. Also, no one wants to go into mateform because "Yay, mateform, my favorite!" You go into mateform (at least on purpose) for the sole purpose of having children, after having found a person of the opposite sex who you think would make a good partner.

At least, that's the overwhelming impression I got from the Singer/Listener POVS. Which makes me wonder if Renarin's crush on Rlain can even be reciprocated. Sure, it's implied that in mateform Rlain is gay, but in warform he has no interest in either dudes or ladies. I mean, if it was a het human/singer pairing, I could at least see the singer saying, "this person seems like she would make a good mother, I suppose I might as well make halfie babies with her." But Rlain doesn't even have that excuse to go into mateform.

On that note, for all the people shipping Kaleshwi: Leshwi is almost certainly in a malen body at the end of RoW. As her days of bodysnatching are at an end, well, unless she becomes a Radiant and transitions, she's stuck as biologically malen. So again, no possibility of making crabhuman babies, no reason she'd go mateform with him. If Fused can even do regular forms.

 

Some thoughts of how your favorite ship possibly could get around this:

-maybe malens and femalens have something akin to asexual romantic feelings? It's possible they don't choose their mates solely for practical reasons. Not like we've seen any choosing happen, can't disprove anything.

-shenanigans involving a singer going out into the storm with a partner and then ending up not compatible. I mean, that's kinda what was implied to have happened with Rlain, right? So you've got a mateform dealing with *urges*, the next highstorm is weeks away, there's a meet-cute with another mateform or a human, hilarity ensues...

-adventurous singer willing to "experiment" with their human best bud

[Elsecaller_17.5]

I would do a poor job answering this question so I won't.

But l can do this, @AonEne.

He'll likely have some insight for you.

 

[Lunu’anaki]

I never got the vibe that singers didn't have romantic feelings outside of mate form. In fact, I think Venli specifies that she was kind of the odd-one-out for being aromantic in a RoW flashback. I could have misinterpreted it though...

[AonEne]

...oh hi? Hey! She, not he, but sure, I can give this a go

So, this?

1 hour ago, Necessary Eagle said:

maybe malens and femalens have something akin to asexual romantic feelings? It's possible they don't choose their mates solely for practical reasons.

Yeah, this is a perfectly normal, real-life thing. It's called romantic attraction.

Most people have the same sexual and romantic orientation, like biromantic bisexual, but some people - often asexuals - have different ones. I'm panromantic asexual. Panromantic is like pansexual, but romantically instead of sexually; I can be romantically interested in someone of any gender. There's also aromantic, where you don't feel romantic attraction, and you can be aromantic and asexual (aroace), or any other combo of sexuality, like aro + hetero or pan or whatever, even homosexual heteroromantic. All the crazy combos! Does that make sense?

Basically, Rlain can be ace and also homoromantic. Still awesomely gay, still perfectly capable of being interested in Renarin. From how Venli treated her once-mate, I've been working off of the assumption that she still felt plenty of love for him, just no particular desire to do the do.

This also wouldn't be a huge leap from Jasnah, who's confirmed heteroromantic asexual. She's not sexually attracted to Wit, but is still comfortably in a relationship with him.

So if Rlain wanted to spend nights with Renarin in mateform and just not make babies, he could, though I agree that singers mostly seem to not be interested in sex for its own sake. They could always adopt if they wanted a kid. Same with Kaladin and Leshwi if Leshwi doesn't transition; having kids isn't something you have to do to be in a relationship.

I hope this has helped you!

Just now, Lunu’anaki said:

In fact, I think Venli specifies that she was kind of the odd-one-out for being aromantic in a RoW flashback. I could have misinterpreted it though...

Wait, Venli's aro? I totally read past that if so, neat!

[Draigwyrdd]

I don't think every form is asexual, just most of them. So there may be a number of forms that aren't specifically for reproduction like mateform, but are male or female rather than malen or femalen. That was my impression at least.

[Lunu’anaki]

4 minutes ago, AonEne said:

Wait, Venli's aro? I totally read past that if so, neat!

Not explicitly, but it felt implied to me that she was when she was younger based on a whole inner monologue she did about how big of a waste of time having a once-mate would be or something... I have the feeling she may have changed her mind with Demid though? Lots of stuff about her life between flashbacks feels implied to me so its hard to say anything with certainty.

My memory is very flawed so take everything I've said here with a grain of salt. I'll keep an eye out on my second readthrough though  

[LuckyJim]

If I had to guess, the sexuality of singers can be as varied as human sexuality, just in different ways due to mateform. The most obvious example is that while they don't have sexual urges out of mateform, there seems to be some variance in compatibility with the form in general. Some singers are happy to take the form, while others are a little more hesitant, and prefer to spend as little time in the form as possible. Venli seems particularly uncomfortable with the form, for example, and her reaction to everyone's expectation that "it would happen one day" really resonated with my personal experiences with asexuality.

I think in RoW or in some WoB it was mentioned that forms don't necessarily change a singer's personality, they just exaggerate or minimize certain personality traits. This could suggest that singers regularly experience some kind of sexual attraction, but in a more suppressed way when not in mateform, so it isn't as distracting as humans who are always in mateform.

More importantly though, sexual attraction and romantic attraction are different things, and it seems that while sexual attraction is suppressed outside of mateform, romantic attraction is not. There isn't a lot of evidence for this, but it could explain on reason singers chose particular partners to enter mateform with. Additionally, a pair of Venli's new listeners considered themselves married, after having learned the custom from their human masters.

[AonEne]

1 hour ago, LuckyJim said:

If I had to guess, the sexuality of singers can be as varied as human sexuality, just in different ways due to mateform. The most obvious example is that while they don't have sexual urges out of mateform, there seems to be some variance in compatibility with the form in general. Some singers are happy to take the form, while others are a little more hesitant, and prefer to spend as little time in the form as possible. 

Being the label-loving queer dork I am, I immediately tried to come up with words for this.  Matepositive, mateinterested, mateneutral, matenegative, materepulsed? Maybe even one for actively wanting to go into and/or stay in mateform, since there are those who like it, they're just rare: is that matepositive or more? 

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, AonEne said:

...oh hi? Hey! She, not he, but sure, I can give this a go

So, this?

Yeah, this is a perfectly normal, real-life thing. It's called romantic attraction.

Most people have the same sexual and romantic orientation, like biromantic bisexual, but some people - often asexuals - have different ones. I'm panromantic asexual. Panromantic is like pansexual, but romantically instead of sexually; I can be romantically interested in someone of any gender. There's also aromantic, where you don't feel romantic attraction, and you can be aromantic and asexual (aroace), or any other combo of sexuality, like aro + hetero or pan or whatever, even homosexual heteroromantic. All the crazy combos! Does that make sense?

Basically, Rlain can be ace and also homoromantic. Still awesomely gay, still perfectly capable of being interested in Renarin. From how Venli treated her once-mate, I've been working off of the assumption that she still felt plenty of love for him, just no particular desire to do the do.

This also wouldn't be a huge leap from Jasnah, who's confirmed heteroromantic asexual. She's not sexually attracted to Wit, but is still comfortably in a relationship with him.

So if Rlain wanted to spend nights with Renarin in mateform and just not make babies, he could, though I agree that singers mostly seem to not be interested in sex for its own sake. They could always adopt if they wanted a kid. Same with Kaladin and Leshwi if Leshwi doesn't transition; having kids isn't something you have to do to be in a relationship.

I hope this has helped you!

Wait, Venli's aro? I totally read past that if so, neat!

I don’t suppose you know any people with opposing romantic and sexual attractions? Ie. homosexual/heteromantic or heterosexual/homoromantic? Because no one ever talks about it, even though it exists.

[AonEne]

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t suppose you know any people with opposing romantic and sexual attractions? Ie. homosexual/heteromantic or heterosexual/homoromantic? Because no one ever talks about it, even though it exists.

I don't know anyone who's that, no, sorry! I do know it exists and it's really interesting to me, and I do try to mention that you can have any sexuality and any romantic orientation paired together when I talk about this stuff, because everyone deserves to be mentioned and known and to have rep and stuff. 

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, AonEne said:

Yeah, this is a perfectly normal, real-life thing. It's called romantic attraction.

In humans. And that is the problem with any speculation or reasoning in that area. Missing data. You cannot even use evolutionary biology, as it looks liks Adonalsium meddled with their biology. Anything is possible.

In fact, as they derive from Rosharan fauna, can we tell for sure that they don't lay eggs?

 

[Proletariat]

It's worth noting that they don't need mateform in order to reproduce or form interpersonal bonds. Even as enslaved Parshmen they had children, and there were bonded pairs. The forms allow for specific forms of specialisation, but it doesn't mean that other forms aren't capable of similar functions. Also we don't know what other forms have been brought into being for the Listeners now - there could even be something specific like loveform, tbh.

[LuckyJim]

6 hours ago, AonEne said:

Being the label-loving queer dork I am, I immediately tried to come up with words for this.  Matepositive, mateinterested, mateneutral, matenegative, materepulsed? Maybe even one for actively wanting to go into and/or stay in mateform, since there are those who like it, they're just rare: is that matepositive or more? 

This seems like a good way of thinking about it, it's like the various labels the asexual community use.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

In humans. And that is the problem with any speculation or reasoning in that area. Missing data. You cannot even use evolutionary biology, as it looks liks Adonalsium meddled with their biology. Anything is possible.

In fact, as they derive from Rosharan fauna, can we tell for sure that they don't lay eggs?

 

It seems safe to assume that singers experience romantic attraction, there was a couple that considered themselves married even when they weren't in mateform among Venli's listeners.

As for the second part, singers in mateform have breasts, so it's likely that they give birth like mammals.

[+Oltux72]

31 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

It seems safe to assume that singers experience romantic attraction, there was a couple that considered themselves married even when they weren't in mateform among Venli's listeners.

It is quite dangerous to simply assume that species are alike. Yes they form some form of relationship past mate form. But for all we know that is an effect of having mated in mate form.

31 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

As for the second part, singers in mateform have breasts, so it's likely that they give birth like mammals.

I have a group of platypodes here that wants to have a word with you in a dark alley.

[Necessary Eagle]

All right, it seems unanimous!

@AonEne I didn't use the term "asexual romance" because I don't think it would be exactly a 1:1 correspondence with human experience... but it's probably close enough, right? (I'm aroace, so I have no idea what goes on with human "mateform", let alone singer stuff).

[+Harrycrapper]

15 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

On that note, for all the people shipping Kaleshwi: Leshwi is almost certainly in a malen body at the end of RoW. As her days of bodysnatching are at an end, well, unless she becomes a Radiant and transitions, she's stuck as biologically malen. So again, no possibility of making crabhuman babies, no reason she'd go mateform with him. If Fused can even do regular forms.

I wonder if she'd even need to be Radiant to transition. The Fused seem to be able to heal wounds with Voidlight much like Radiants do with Stormlight. When they take over a new body the skin patterns change to match how the Fused see themselves. Why not the genitalia? 

[Necessary Eagle]

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

I wonder if she'd even need to be Radiant to transition. The Fused seem to be able to heal wounds with Voidlight much like Radiants do with Stormlight. When they take over a new body the skin patterns change to match how the Fused see themselves. Why not the genitalia? 

Well she can't keep her malen body from growing a beard. It's smaller than a normal malen beard, but she still has to shave.

[+Harrycrapper]

43 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Well she can't keep her malen body from growing a beard. It's smaller than a normal malen beard, but she still has to shave.

I'm not really questioning that she has the body of a male, I'm just wondering why it seems certain things shift to her spiritual ideal like the skin patterns while other things such as the beard do not. I'm guessing that either there are limitations on what the Fused can change about the bodies they inhabit or they don't always choose to change their entire bodies to match their spiritual ideal. Or there's something about Stormlight that allows people to match their physical body to their spiritual ideal where Voidlight is more limited. 

[mathiau]

19 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

You go into mateform (at least on purpose) for the sole purpose of having children, after having found a person of the opposite sex who you think would make a good partner.

Some people go into mateform just because they like it (or because it's part of the job for one Listener of the Council) I remember Eshonai dispited people who did

19 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Renarin's crush on Rlain [...] Sure, it's implied that in mateform Rlain is gay

Wait, what? Renarin has a crush on Rlain? When was it implied?

And where is it implied Rlain is gay in mateform? I remember he said weird thing happened when he was in mateform, but he also felt weird in when he first got into warform (and was the only one to) so I'd be extremely disappointed if it was just "I find males hot"

17 hours ago, Draigwyrdd said:

I don't think every form is asexual, just most of them. So there may be a number of forms that aren't specifically for reproduction like mateform, but are male or female rather than malen or femalen. That was my impression at least.

Dullform was confirmed not to be asexual

[AonEne]

4 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

All right, it seems unanimous!

@AonEne I didn't use the term "asexual romance" because I don't think it would be exactly a 1:1 correspondence with human experience... but it's probably close enough, right? (I'm aroace, so I have no idea what goes on with human "mateform", let alone singer stuff).

Fair! I'm also ace, so I have to agree that allos be crazy I would say that while definitely not a 1:1, I personally don't really think them having romantic attraction is much of a jump from what we get in the books and what we know Brandon has said.

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Wait, what? Renarin has a crush on Rlain? When was it implied?

And where is it implied Rlain is gay in mateform? I remember he said weird thing happened when he was in mateform, but he also felt weird in when he first got into warform (and was the only one to) so I'd be extremely disappointed if it was just "I find males hot"

Confirmed in a recent livestream! I don't have the link, someone else would have to WoB it for me.

As for Rlain being gay, that one is just the implication, not confirmed yet.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, AonEne said:

Fair! I'm also ace, so I have to agree that allos be crazy I would say that while definitely not a 1:1, I personally don't really think them having romantic attraction is much of a jump from what we get in the books and what we know Brandon has said.

Confirmed in a recent livestream! I don't have the link, someone else would have to WoB it for me.

The first or both?

[AonEne]

Just now, mathiau said:

The first or both?

I edited, sorry.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, AonEne said:

I edited, sorry.

Yeah, I'm putting that one on "Rlain is special", he has to be of he is the Bridger of Minds

[yulyulk]

2 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

On that note, for all the people shipping Kaleshwi: Leshwi is almost certainly in a malen body at the end of RoW. As her days of bodysnatching are at an end, well, unless she becomes a Radiant and transitions, she's stuck as biologically malen.

I'm laughing so hard at this description omg. Also I love that this is under the lore and magic discussions; figuring out how our ships are gonna function is a crucial part of the lore indeed

But also, to answer your question, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch for a singer to be like "hey I like this human, and they like me back, let me try going into mateform and see if we have a fun time". A component of having (romantic or platonic) relationships is to try different things together, after all. I suppose you'd have to talk about it beforehand and establish that there may be boundaries that you don't want to cross, for instance there can be romantic cuddling and some foreplay, without being like "we're going to make babies."

[Elsecaller_17.5]

On 12/30/2020 at 8:15 PM, AonEne said:

...oh hi? Hey! She, not he, but sure, I can give this a go

Oops. Sorry