Not sure how gay Singer ships would work

[Bremen]

On 12/31/2020 at 3:22 PM, Harrycrapper said:

I'm not really questioning that she has the body of a male, I'm just wondering why it seems certain things shift to her spiritual ideal like the skin patterns while other things such as the beard do not. I'm guessing that either there are limitations on what the Fused can change about the bodies they inhabit or they don't always choose to change their entire bodies to match their spiritual ideal. Or there's something about Stormlight that allows people to match their physical body to their spiritual ideal where Voidlight is more limited. 

Maybe the original owner of the body is still around somehow? Until the body dies they aren't truly dead and still have a connection to it, and thus some control over the spiritual ideal of that body. The Fused are essentially a different form, one that also steps in front of the original owners mind and seizes control, but they are limited in how much they can change, like any other form.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

12 minutes ago, Bremen said:

Maybe the original owner of the body is still around somehow? Until the body dies they aren't truly dead and still have a connection to it, and thus some control over the spiritual ideal of that body. The Fused are essentially a different form, one that also steps in front of the original owners mind and seizes control, but they are limited in how much they can change, like any other form.

That's the most terrified I've been of the fused yet, reading that. 

[+Harrycrapper]

8 hours ago, Bremen said:

Maybe the original owner of the body is still around somehow? Until the body dies they aren't truly dead and still have a connection to it, and thus some control over the spiritual ideal of that body. The Fused are essentially a different form, one that also steps in front of the original owners mind and seizes control, but they are limited in how much they can change, like any other form.

I don't think that's the case. I'm 99% certain that when Venli narrowly avoided becoming a Fused, Ulim said that her friends' souls had gone into the Beyond and they were completely irretrievable. Ulim is a proven liar, but I'd need to see that disproven before I believe otherwise. 

[Bremen]

9 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

I don't think that's the case. I'm 99% certain that when Venli narrowly avoided becoming a Fused, Ulim said that her friends' souls had gone into the Beyond and they were completely irretrievable. Ulim is a proven liar, but I'd need to see that disproven before I believe otherwise. 

He could be lying, or his knowledge might be incomplete. I get the feeling the fused don't give much thought to what happens to the body's rightful owner. As far as they're concerned that person doesn't exist anymore. Whether they're in the Beyond or some undead hell, is not something the fused would ever bother to even think about.

[Daggon Forescout he/him]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:22 AM, Proletariat said:

It's worth noting that they don't need mateform in order to reproduce or form interpersonal bonds. Even as enslaved Parshmen they had children, and there were bonded pairs. The forms allow for specific forms of specialisation, but it doesn't mean that other forms aren't capable of similar functions. Also we don't know what other forms have been brought into being for the Listeners now - there could even be something specific like loveform, tbh.

Apparently, the ability to have children is limited to dullform and mateform. In one of the Venli flashbacks she says "Hiding in one of these shelters wouldn't allow her to adopt mateform, which was the sole transformation they did regularly. No one wanted to go back to dullform, after all." In another flashback it's explained that "Children needed no form, and were vibrant without one - but if they didn't adopt a form upon puberty in their seventh or eighth year, they would be trapped in dullform instead. That form was, essentially, an inferior version of mateform."

On 12/30/2020 at 7:08 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

I never got the vibe that singers didn't have romantic feelings outside of mate form. In fact, I think Venli specifies that she was kind of the odd-one-out for being aromantic in a RoW flashback. I could have misinterpreted it though...

"[Venli's] mother had smiled when she'd asked, explaining that few ever intended to adopt mateform. She acted as if it were simply something that happened, that an urge overtook you, or you sat too close to the exit during a storm -  then poof, the next thing you knew, you'd become a silly idiot looking to breed."

Eshonai also describes mateform as "silly," so I don't think it's fair to say as of yet that Venli was particularly the odd one out.

On 12/31/2020 at 1:48 PM, mathiau said:

And where is it implied Rlain is gay in mateform? I remember he said weird thing happened when he was in mateform, but he also felt weird in when he first got into warform (and was the only one to) so I'd be extremely disappointed if it was just "I find males hot"

When Rlain considers "rebuilding" the listener race with Venli: "The idea nauseated him for multiple reasons. For one, the times he'd tried mateform himself, things hadn't gone the way he - or anyone really - had expected." Seems to me like the implication is that he was attracted to other men.

I couldn't find anything about Rlain feeling weird in warform, apart from him feeling uncomfortable wearing it around humans as it made him "look like the enemy." Do you remember which book/chapter that was?

[AquaRegia he/him]

On 12/31/2020 at 4:48 PM, mathiau said:

Wait, what? Renarin has a crush on Rlain? When was it implied?

And where is it implied Rlain is gay in mateform?

I'm glad to know that my honey and I were not the only ones who failed to deduce this from the text.  We'd still be completely ignorant of this apparently-coming-in-the-very-next-novel relationship without the WoBs.  I'm also glad we had a robust discussion of "romantic attraction as distinct from sexual attraction", as that's the reply that immediately came to my mind upon reading Necessary Eagle's OP.  PLENTY of folks have romantic love without the urge to make babies.  In fact, given the realities of population pressure, economics, and aging, I'd guess it's the most common situation.

I'll add a few things I've been wondering.  In another post here on the shard, someone mentioned "singers have 4 genders"... is that canon?  I don't recall any gender descriptors ever being used for parshmen/parshendi/listeners/singers beyond the familiar he/she pronouns and malen/femalen for both noun and adjective.  I think it's very well-established that they are identifiable as malen or femalen no matter what form they happen to be wearing, and mateform and mating were described pretty explicitly as a "pairing".  Whence comes "4 genders"?

I also have a ton of questions in my head about Leshwi and her current malen body.  I love that she remains "she" to literally everyone, not only other fused who have known her for centuries, but also her servants, who can see the body is malen, and people who have ONLY EVER SEEN HER in that malen body, e.g., Kaladin.  How did THAT play out, exactly?  Do fused as disembodied souls exercise control over which singer body they take?  If so, do some care more about gender than others?  Would, say, Lezian the Pursuer Defeated One (were he to come back again) be equally satisfied with a femalen body to inhabit?  And what are the limits to which their soul can re-mold that new body?  But I really love how Brandon very naturally worked into the story a character inhabiting a malen body - which needs to be shaved - yet is still unquestionably SHE to everyone.

[yulyulk]

6 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I'm glad to know that my honey and I were not the only ones who failed to deduce this from the text

I also didn't, and I'm the kind of person who latches on tiny interactions to ship gay couples (lol). I'm hoping that we'll see more of their on-screen interactions in the next book, without having to wait until Renarin's book in the back 5.

As for singers having 4 genders, I think people on here consider male/female (forms capable of reproducing) as two separate genders from malen/femalen, which are neuter.

[mathiau he/him]

3 minutes ago, yulyulk said:

I also didn't, and I'm the kind of person who latches on tiny interactions to ship gay couples (lol). I'm hoping that we'll see more of their on-screen interactions in the next book, without having to wait until Renarin's book in the back 5.

As for singers having 4 genders, I think people on here consider male/female (forms capable of reproducing) as two separate genders from malen/femalen, which are neuter.

Singers seems to do, and it would explain why old spren have four. Personally I find the difference between "malen but male when in mate/dullform" and "male but without reproducer organs unless in mate/dullform" too artificial, especially since malen and femalen still use he and she. It's possible the four genders is something else, especially since the Sibling uses 'they'.

[Leuthie]

I've read this thread several times, but every time I see the title I can't help but see a gay pride parade with a floating platform pulled through downtown San Diego full of workform and mateform singers in speedos with a big sign that says Gay Singer Ship, Navani standing below the sign and a bunch of Windrunners flying around handing out rainbow swag.

[AquaRegia he/him]

56 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I've read this thread several times, but every time I see the title I can't help but see a gay pride parade with a floating platform pulled through downtown San Diego full of workform and mateform singers in speedos with a big sign that says Gay Singer Ship, Navani standing below the sign and a bunch of Windrunners flying around handing out rainbow swag.

Well, I must say this sounds ABSOLUTELY STORMING FABULOUS.  FanFic writers, get busy.

[Daggon Forescout he/him]

9 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I also have a ton of questions in my head about Leshwi and her current malen body.  I love that she remains "she" to literally everyone, not only other fused who have known her for centuries, but also her servants, who can see the body is malen, and people who have ONLY EVER SEEN HER in that malen body, e.g., Kaladin.  How did THAT play out, exactly?  Do fused as disembodied souls exercise control over which singer body they take?  If so, do some care more about gender than others?  Would, say, Lezian the Pursuer Defeated One (were he to come back again) be equally satisfied with a femalen body to inhabit?  And what are the limits to which their soul can re-mold that new body?  But I really love how Brandon very naturally worked into the story a character inhabiting a malen body - which needs to be shaved - yet is still unquestionably SHE to everyone.

Kaladin has seen Leshwi in multiple different bodies. I think the first time we see her in this book Kal comments that he can always recognize her regardless of which new body she inhabits. (The implication being that he's killed her multiple times?) Makes me wonder if just the first time he saw Leshwi she were female, or if she had to stop mid-fight and explain to him that she is in fact femalen, regardless of whatever body she happens to occupy

[AquaRegia he/him]

3 hours ago, yulyulk said:

As for singers having 4 genders, I think people on here consider male/female (forms capable of reproducing) as two separate genders from malen/femalen, which are neuter.

Agreed; I have now seen the relevant WoB. 

29 minutes ago, Daggon Forescout said:

Kaladin has seen Leshwi in multiple different bodies. I think the first time we see her in this book Kal comments that he can always recognize her regardless of which new body she inhabits. (The implication being that he's killed her multiple times?) Makes me wonder if just the first time he saw Leshwi she were female, or if she had to stop mid-fight and explain to him that she is in fact femalen, regardless of whatever body she happens to occupy

I sit corrected, thanks.  He does explicitly state that she was killed (by Cord) last time.  I really wish that their first meeting had happened on-screen!