Shallan's Karma Houdini

[Frustration]

30 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I think you're pushing the "don't change" thing a bit too far. You're basically saying they can't be convinced of something. If the direction of gravity can be changed 180 degrees with a little infusion of Investiture and Intent, then a spren can be convinced to drop their hate when the reason for it is removed. They don't change like we do, but they aren't statues. Something convinced a good number of honorspren to seek out bonds again. Why can't something convince a good number of others not to hate again?

They were literally willing to attack one of the Heralds because of that hate.

That kind of hatred does not just disappear, if they can find any ground to build it upon they will.

They contained enough of a majority to silence opposition among them, they aren't just going to turn into Syl now that the side quest is over.

[Leuthie]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They were literally willing to attack one of the Heralds because of that hate.

That kind of hatred does not just disappear, if they can find any ground to build it upon they will.

They contained enough of a majority to silence opposition among them, they aren't just going to turn into Syl now that the side quest is over.

They aren't a monolithic group, either. Nothing in the book said that every honorspren was now going to go bond a human. The honor of humans wasn't fully restored, but it will be hard for anyone to convince reasonable honorspren to continue to believe that humans are genocidal to spren and should never be bonded again. Some honorspren were convinced, the city was opened where it once was closed. That's it. There will still be debate and those who will never bond.

To say that spren "don't change" isn't to say they can't be convinced of things. It's also possible that no one's mind was changed; simply a power dynamic was overcome, allowing freedom that was being suppressed before.

[GeoMantrix]

On my first reading I missed that she killed testament in the wake of killing her mother.  So the whole thing was very unsatisfactory to me.  I wondered if I'd missed something.  It made sense the second time through.  Probably a drawback of listening on audiobook vs. reading.  

Quote

 I am a little frustrated at the fact Shallan keeps lying to herself and everyone about things in her life

But her powers are inextricably linked with this property.  I get more tired of Kaladin being such a killjoy.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by GeoMantrix

[Shob the Voidbringer]

On 1/6/2021 at 4:49 AM, GeoMantrix said:

 I get more tired of Kaladin being such a killjoy.  

on the brightside, this should be ending about now, because kaladin won't be as depressed, now that he's accepted that he can't save everyone

[BenduLuke]

Shallon have consequences? she has experienced decades of consequences. She shattered because of the death of her mother and Testament. That is the reason she was 3 people and almost a 4th.

Maybe the Cryptics picked her twice because of how complex she is, and how willing she is to share her truth. They love deception, and complexity and value how accepting personal truth further increases nuanced complexity. Shallan is perhaps the most complex character in the whole series so far and thus to a Cryptic has the most potential.

Testaments death only makes Shallon an even better candidate for Pattern because of the increased deception it created. Maybe she will be the first double 5th ideal in history.

Shallon, the un-deceivable, Testament's Pattern the Twinblade! Master of Light, Shade, and Soul.

[AquaRegia]

On 12/22/2020 at 9:50 AM, jamesbondsmith said:

... I'm still confused as to why Cryptics would want to bond someone who has already killed one of them, regardless of the reasons why.

Edit: I am a little frustrated at the fact Shallan keeps lying to herself and everyone about things in her life, but that's her entire arc...

I think you have answered your own question here.  Cryptics are LIESPREN.  They treasure lies.  And Shallan is THE. BEST. LIAR.

[teknopathetic]

I mean, the Cryptics knew she had done it and the Cryptics decided to try again. Surely they must have had a good reason. As Tien was also bonding one, I guess the Spren trust children more (or think they can mold them similar to why Windle was told to bond Lift). 

Edited January 15, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Lunu’anaki]

On 12/21/2020 at 1:50 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

Anyone else annoyed that Shallan did the exact thing that has the Spren so concerned about humans (without even the caveat of having done it as a partnership), and... suffers no consequences whatsoever? The cryptics sent her another one after it all!

I know she was a kid who didn't know what she was doing, but Adolin and the other humans were centuries removed from the Recreance and they were still vilified as if they personally had done it. I don't think it's a proper rebuttal.

I think there is more to it than we know. You're right it's odd that they would do that, It's unreasonable. There is something else going on that we aren't aware of. I'm sure of it.

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I think you have answered your own question here.  Cryptics are LIESPREN.  They treasure lies.  And Shallan is THE. BEST. LIAR.

As a sort of counterpoint, what makes her lies specifically any better? I don't think it's very likely that Shallan just happens to have all of the best lies (unless she's just, for some reason, a celebrity among Cryptics). There's obviously something else going on there.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Vissy

[Quick Ben]

To be fair, Shallan kind of lucks out of every situation shes ever been put in, so the glossing over of her being the one to make a new deadeye isn't really that surprising (i personally think, testament arc is an afterthought and wasnt originally planned).

However people seem to assume in order for Shallan to have bonded Testament that she must of had some other early childhood trauma, which triggered the bond, but given Tien was bonding a liespren, (who unless there is a shock reveal hadnt experienced any traumatic events) does it not stand to reason that maybe they are attracted to children because of there imaginations ? Childhood games where they are such and such a person in such an such a place ? Like playing cops and robbers when your young, or heroes and princesses etc

Elhokar is another example, while you could argue he lied to himself about being a good king, you could also argue he "imagined" he was a good king, and lived the fantasy of that rather then lived the lie. 

 

[AquaRegia]

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

As a sort of counterpoint, what makes her lies specifically any better? I don't think it's very likely that Shallan just happens to have all of the best lies (unless she's just, for some reason, a celebrity among Cryptics). There's obviously something else going on there.

Of course there is something else going on!  Maybe SEVERAL somethings.  Have you forgotten this is BRANDON STORMING SANDERSON we're talking about? LOL There is always another secret.  The short answer to your question is "we don't know...yet."  As our friend Lunu'anaki puts it,

9 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I think there is more to it than we know. You're right it's odd that they would do that, It's unreasonable. There is something else going on that we aren't aware of. I'm sure of it.

I'm also as confident as I can be that we will learn much more about Shallan's past that will make things more clear... things she may not know, and probably, more things she sort-of-does-know-but-is-still-hiding-from-herself.  And THAT'S the truly impressive ability that makes her so irresistable to the Cryptics: lying to OTHER people is the easy part; lying TO YOURSELF about whole big chunks of your own life?  It's a well-documented coping mechanism for dealing with childhood trauma, and it's really quite amazing.

2 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

... (i personally think, testament arc is an afterthought and wasnt originally planned).

I think you are dead wrong about this.  Again, Brandon Sanderson.  He was planning out the end of the entire Cosmere saga before he wrote the first novel.  He's got every detail figured out, and I don't think he just decides to add in major details on the fly.

2 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Elhokar is another example, while you could argue he lied to himself about being a good king, you could also argue he "imagined" he was a good king, and lived the fantasy of that rather then lived the lie.

This is a good point.  Cryptics are DRAWN to lies, but don't exactly understand them the same way we do.  It makes sense that the ability to "believe in your own reality", even if it's not what we might call "lying", is attractive to them, and might make young children with rich imaginations especially so.

[KSub]

The spren seem to have no qualms bonding children, as they also bonded lift. It seems that Kaladin and Tien had spren as children too, it just wasn't the formal bond we think of at that point. So who knows how many other children have spren following them.

I'm going to make a controversial statement here and say that they aren't wrong to want to do that. At the very least not within the context of honor and cultivation.

Children's minds are not fully formed. Thats precisely why the spren would want to bond them. Our family and culture inform who we become and if the spren act as a sort of imaginary friend helping children and encouraging personal growth and honorable actions that doesn't seem so bad. 

In a martial society like Alethkar, with the Everstorm approaching, it seems even more reasonable. The Alethi train children in the art of war. Is it any different from what the spren would do?

Children are prone to making bad decisions and refusing to do what they know they should. I wouldn't want to be the spren bonded to a teenager. But the greater risk seems to be on the spren should the kids break their oaths. And we have also seen that spren can come back from this. If the payoff is better prepared radiants who are more dedicated to their oaths it really makes sense that the spren would do it. Imagine if all the windrunners were like  kaladin and had a spren as kids.

Shallan being bonded with a shardblade seems to be unusual and could be related to the Cryptics or the Ghostbloods.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 12/21/2020 at 7:57 PM, Greywatch said:

Whatever fault is involved, Shallan doesn't deserve it. When I read that I wanted to shake every single Cryptic by the shoulders and tell them they cannot bond children.

What about Cultivationspren?

 

On 12/21/2020 at 10:08 PM, Frustration said:

Characters not having consiquences for their actions is starting to become a trend, Adolin and Dalinar's relationship not changing being one.

...huh?  Did you read the same Rhythm of War that I did?  Their relationship has very noticeably been impacted by the revelations at the end of the last book!

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

...huh?  Did you read the same Rhythm of War that I did?  Their relationship has very noticeably been impacted by the revelations at the end of the last book!

one line is nothing.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 12/22/2020 at 11:00 AM, Leuthie said:

I think you're pushing the "don't change" thing a bit too far. You're basically saying they can't be convinced of something. If the direction of gravity can be changed 180 degrees with a little infusion of Investiture and Intent, then a spren can be convinced to drop their hate when the reason for it is removed. They don't change like we do, but they aren't statues. Something convinced a good number of honorspren to seek out bonds again. Why can't something convince a good number of others not to hate again?

Just look at how Dalinar (and to a lesser extent Kaladin) has been able to persuade the Stormfather, a literal force of nature, to change for the better at times.  If the Stormfather can change, why not any other sapient spren?

[Leuthie]

1 minute ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Just look at how Dalinar (and to a lesser extent Kaladin) has been able to persuade the Stormfather, a literal force of nature, to change for the better at times.  If the Stormfather can change, why not any other sapient spren?

To be fair, that change can be attributed to the Bond.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Just look at how Dalinar (and to a lesser extent Kaladin) has been able to persuade the Stormfather, a literal force of nature, to change for the better at times.  If the Stormfather can change, why not any other sapient spren?

Because the Stormfather is bonded, when he wasn't bonded or close there to he was the Storm, and that was all he cared to be.

It's said a lot how spren don't change without a bond.

Edit:'d

Edited January 15, 2021 by Frustration

[Mason Wheeler]

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

This is a good point.  Cryptics are DRAWN to lies, but don't exactly understand them the same way we do.  It makes sense that the ability to "believe in your own reality", even if it's not what we might call "lying", is attractive to them, and might make young children with rich imaginations especially so.

Remember how in WoR, Pattern classified sarcasm, exaggeration, and figures of speech as very fascinating lies.  The imaginations of children would almost certainly prove delicious to them!

[Quick Ben]

Quote

I think you are dead wrong about this.  Again, Brandon Sanderson.  He was planning out the end of the entire Cosmere saga before he wrote the first novel.  He's got every detail figured out, and I don't think he just decides to add in major details on the fly.

Look back at WoB's and ul see pattern referred to being the spren Shallan bonded as a child.

Also, Pattern has always been trying to get Shallan to confront her inner lies, in order to make there bond stronger, for example at end or WoR, he has Adolin bring her to a room which mimics the room she killed her mother in, and where "he was stored in the safe", he wouldnt go to all that "reveal" if there was a deeper lie beneath it, so i stand by my opinion that this was an after thought.

Just look at tWoK ending being changed after it was released as precedent if you think Sanderson doesn't alter storylines as he goes, Even the character of Adolin is proof of that since he wasnt planned at the beginning either.

[Mason Wheeler]

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

one line is nothing.

It was more than one line; it was showing in the entirety of their interactions.  (Which admittedly wasn't much because it was pretty early on in the book when Adolin and Dalinar parted ways for their own separate plotlines, but what was there was quite noticeable!)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Mason Wheeler said:

It was more than one line; it was showing in the entirety of their interactions.  (Which admittedly wasn't much because it was pretty early on in the book when Adolin and Dalinar parted ways for their own separate plotlines, but what was there was quite noticeable!)

for what happened that was rather... insubstantional.

[Greywatch]

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

What about Cultivationspren?

Lift is now a teen; unfortunate still, but there is a level of emotional self-regulation a thirteen year-old can do that a six year-old is entirely incapable of.

[Mason Wheeler]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

for what happened that was rather... insubstantional.

What exactly were you expecting?  For him to turn on Dalinar?  Try to kill his father?  Raise an insurrection against him in the middle of a war?

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

What exactly were you expecting?  For him to turn on Dalinar?  Try to kill his father?  Raise an insurrection against him in the middle of a war?

An argument at least, more distance, not speaking to him. There are a lot of options instead of just "tension"

[cosmiclightweaver]

On 1/15/2021 at 3:34 PM, Frustration said:

An argument at least, more distance, not speaking to him. There are a lot of options instead of just "tension"

There's obviously a lot more going on than just "tension". We see at the end of chapter 34 that Adolin is dealing with a lot of conflicting feelings towards his father. He's furious about what happened to his mother. He hates how his father has been acting towards him ever since he admitted to killing Sadeas. Adolin doesn't want to be around his father because of how Dalinar makes him feel, and because he's obviously still struggling with what he's learned. It doesn't appear that he's had very long to process all this Stuff about his father yet, and it's not easy to try and hash things out when you're processing horrible things the other person did. The two obviously needed space from one another to get a little more clarity, and yes, some big explosion of feelings hasn't happened yet. But there's so much more than just tension between the two. We don't get much on how Dalinar is feeling at all, but what Adolin's been going through is woven into his entire arc. It's subtle, but it's there!