[Poll] Thoughts/Predictions on Moash Redemption

[Knight of Iron she/they]

I think I'm getting addicted to the poll feature...

It's simple! Answer the poll. I've included two criteria. Whether you want a redemption or not, and whether you think it's actually going to happen or not. I saw a thread on this and wanted to a visual on people's opinions and thoughts.

Personally, he makes such a good villain through his ideals vs. Kaladin's ideals that I no longer want a redemption.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Knight of Iron

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Knight of Iron said:

I think I'm getting addicted to the poll feature...

It's simple! Answer the poll. I've included two criteria. Whether you want a redemption or not, and whether you think it's actually going to happen or not. I saw a thread on this and wanted to a visual on people's opinions and thoughts.

Personally, he makes such a good villain through his ideals vs. Kaladin's ideals that I no longer want a redemption.

Where's the I have no idea and have given up on predicting plot details for Stormlight books option?

[Knight of Iron she/they]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Where's the I have no idea and have given up on predicting plot details for Stormlight books option?

I was going to make one, but I wanted solid answers 

EDIT: Also, I added it 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Knight of Iron

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Knight of Iron said:

I was going to make one, but I wanted solid answers 

Bother. I'll have to go with... uhhhhhh. Option 2, simply because I have no idea whether it will happen or not. Oh, you actually added it.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Ookla the Unnamable

[Knight of Iron she/they]

Just now, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Bother. I'll have to go with... uhhhhhh. Option 2, simply because I have no idea whether it will happen or not.

Looks like I wasn’t quick enough with my edit...

[NameIess]

Just now, Knight of Iron said:

Looks like I wasn’t quick enough with my edit...

I think you were, I just didn't see it.

[Aon Tia she/her]

I think we will get a Moash redemption to the extent that he might realise that he was wrong. He let his thirst for vengeance destroy himself and his friendship with Kal. 
I also want him to realise that the “peace” that Odium bestows on him, really does not work. It is a hogwash. Otherwise he will not have the desire to ruin (cough cough prove wrong that is ) kaladin. 
But I don’t think he will be allowed to join the good side again. He can not become a windrunner or part of bridge 4 again. 
I think he might realise all this as his last act. 

[Wolfbeckett]

Before RoW I would have been okay with a Moash redemption, I don't like Elhokar THAT much.  But after RoW, no, he's gone too far now and he just needs to be ended.

[Frustration]

I have one word that somes up the entirety of my feelings about Moash

Nothing, nada nope

I honestly would be surprised if I cared even a little bit about what eventually happens.

[Autobrecciation]

Ok so I've chimed into several of these discussions, and honestly I'm all over the place on this topic, generally depending on which section of Moash I've gotten last. Previously been against but think its likely he will get redemption, but now I have been thinking about what purpose can he bring to future plot lines. I've thrown a few around redemption story archetypes such as Darth Vader's Redemption, Smeagul, Padan Fain, Saul/Paul.

Remember the fifth ideal for the Skybreakers is like, "I am the Law" and transcending letters to be the embodyment of justice. What is that for "I will protect" if not something like "I will know who it is right to protect". Currently I'm leaning towards Moash needing to be saved, and Kaladin leaving him to die. Maybe Moash will have a partial redemption arc,  Kaladin will have a chance to save him, but Moashes selfishness will bite him in the rockbuds. Kaladin won't have to protect him, and maybe he will die because of his toxicity as he is beyond saving. So like, redemption fake out, with Kal giving him the finger as he falls into a volcano?

I admit this might be wrong because I thought it (redemption arc start) was going to happen in part one of RoW when Moash showed up.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Autobrecciation

[DiePie]

I think killing off Moash is the easy way out, and that Brandon is actively trying to avoid that. He's trying to write real characters with real struggles, and if Moash doesn't kill himself after being cut off from Odium, he's gonna have to come to terms with what he did. I think he could have a great arc in the back half, as he struggles to forgive himself for what he did, and all he needs to begin as a lightweaver is a bit of repression, and to lose a bit of his selfishness.

I would like to remind everyone that Shallan's kill list isn't all that much better than Moash's, it's just that Moash killed a lot of characters that we, the readers, were supposed to like and ruined moments for the sake of twists (you gotta admit, those were incredible twists tho)

[nbozb]

22 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I think killing off Moash is the easy way out, and that Brandon is actively trying to avoid that. He's trying to write real characters with real struggles, and if Moash doesn't kill himself after being cut off from Odium, he's gonna have to come to terms with what he did. I think he could have a great arc in the back half, as he struggles to forgive himself for what he did, and all he needs to begin as a lightweaver is a bit of repression, and to lose a bit of his selfishness.

I would like to remind everyone that Shallan's kill list isn't all that much better than Moash's, it's just that Moash killed a lot of characters that we, the readers, were supposed to like and ruined moments for the sake of twists (you gotta admit, those were incredible twists tho)

Totally agree with the first paragraph, I’d love to see that (even though it would be satisfying for him to fall into a volcano...)

I don’t know how much I agree with Shallan’s kill list, but Dalinar’s kill list is bounds above Moash - he burned a village, killing so many innocent people (including his wife, and probably kids as old as his grand-nephew). He was a warlord that reveled in blood. If Dalinar can come back, Moash can. 

I guess I’m fine with whatever happens. If Moash dies horribly, great! If Moash gets a slow, painful redemption arc, sign me up!

[Eri she/her]

Where's "I don't have a preference about Moash redemption, but it's not going to happen"?

I don't mean he doesn't deserve it morally (that's a false question anyway), but I don't think that's where the book is heading. He's had almost no PoV etc. My bet is he's gonna kill himself or at least die by his mistakes, Gollum-style. (What Gollum had wasn't a redemption, it was something different narratively).

Edited December 20, 2020 by Eri

[Honorless he/him]

Excuse me as I use the oldest metaphors, only substituting light and darkness for Honor and Odium, to cut down on how much typing I would otherwise have to do.

The books have been veering towards the necessity for a certain amount of Odium to get things done in some ways but it's also exploring why Honor has be so difficult and so demanding.

So Moash redemption is a bit of a toss up at this moment, imo, but still generally veering towards: it's probably not going to happen.

Oh and yeah, I do want a Moash redemption arc

Edited December 20, 2020 by Honorless

[Banazir864]

He makes a great villain and foil to Kaladin, but I always like a villain getting redeemed as long as it's not too cheesy (e.g., "Monstrous McMurdermonger, stop being evil because that's not nice!" "Yeah, okay, whatever."), but knowing Brandon, any redemption arc would likely be well-executed.

[LuckyJim]

I think it could work, it might even make sense for his character arc, as long as Moash can recognize that serving Odium hurts him personally, and not just because he's hurting his friends. I'm probably projecting a lot, but just allow me to humor the idea for a bit.

Consider Moash's character arc as your basic want vs. need structure, what Moash wants is obvious enough, revenge. Revenge on Elhokar who killed his grandparents through his incompetence, revenge on lighteyes for their cruelty towards darkeyes, and revenge on humanity for allowing it to happen. What he needs (and this is where I start completely projecting my own interpretation all over everything) is freedom, freedom from his oppressors and freedom from his hatred. Moash has spent his life under the thumb of tyrannical lighteyes, but when he tried to fight against them he let himself be controlled by the diagram and later Odium. He's always been controlled by someone else, and because he gives in to his hatred and doesn't try to improve he can't ever be free. It's ironic, in his interlude he believes that Moash was chained but Vyre is free, when as Vyre he's in tighter bondage than he ever was as Moash.

This is why I was so on board with the idea of Moash joining the listeners, because their own ideal of freedom fits perfectly with this aspect of Moash's character not to mention he's at his best when he's acting in support of the regular singers.

Do I think it will happen? Eh, probably not. I think I'm wrong, and Moash isn't meant to be that complex, but at the same time I don't know what he's meant to do at this point. If he was just supposed to be a foil to Kaladin I don't understand why he didn't just die at the end of RoW, Hell, he probably could have died earlier.

[Gyirin]

I don't think it'll happen but if it does I think Mister Sanderson would be able to pull it off in a satisfying way.

 

Though I want to say that Moash was a pretty great character in Words of Radiance but after that he quickly went down the spiral and now he's a poorly written character and a huge waste of potential. 

In Words of Radiance he was a vengeful guy who was what Kaladin might have become if he didn't find better goals. His reasons for wanting to kill Elhokar was very understandable in my opinion and his backstory was another look at the problems of Alethkar society that need to be addressed. Making a character who is similar to Kaladin but is trying to go down a different path(during WoR) was a good idea. But all the interesting things that could have come out of that get thrown out the window by the next book. 

He quickly turns into a hollow, cartoonishly evil man. Its like Mister Sanderson created this guy to be a sink hole for fan hate. 

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

I've always said that the reason we don't hate Dalinar this much is because we met Dalinar post-heel/face turn (and Dalinar's redemption is part of why he's my favourite character). That being said, I don't recall Dalinar's kills being this personal. He killed or gave the orders that killed bajillions, and many of them were on the battlefield and were trying to kill him too. He never murdered a former friend in order to to drive another friend to suicide, nor taunted the mother of a previous victim with lies about how he was a snivelling coward right at the end. Even Shallan as someone pointed out has killed, but all of them were in defence of herself or others (or having no idea that it would happen, in Testament's case).

Moash also explicitly says he's not sorry for killing Teft, he's only sorry that he feels bad about doing so. That's why I dislike him so much, and why I kind of don't want him to be redeemed. I could get behind redemption if he'd stopped at Elhokar and Roshone, as he did have legitimate grievances against them, even if Elhokar wasn't as malicious as Moash thinks he was. But as it stands, nope.

If he does get redeemed, I really hope that it's not just a 'diddums had a sad childhood and that made him kill everyone he could' that is so prevalent in fiction/fandom nowadays.

 

[quackquack]

I think Moash is very spiritually damaged.  Hence why he cant see.  shard blades burn out the victims eyes, their link to the spiritual realm has been severed.  So I think hes had some sort of spirit web damage.   He knows he shouldn't do the things hes doing.   But any negitive emotion from those actions is stripped from him.  But odium apparently cant help his spirt.  

Hes blind to his crimes, all that jazz.  He needs to take accountability for his actions, probably,  to regain his sight.   

I think things will go very poorly for the good guys. And when it does Odiun will have abandoned Moash.  Perhaps todium will do this always.   He will have all the negitive emotions of what he has done pushed upon him.  And it will be too late for redemption.  

I honestly think hes a likely candidate to be a world hopper.   Since he has no bond to a spren.  And can sever his bond to the honor blade, I think.   Where as most of the others are probably too heavily invested/wouldnt want to leave their spren behind? He will gather forces from other systems to fight against todium? 

I dont think there will be a redemption arc.  Neither Zzeth or Dalinar have had redemption arcs, they're just trying to move forward.