Odium, the power of opposition - how Odium can take on two shards at the same time

[Ixthos he/him]

Odium likes questions, passion, challenging the status quo. Odium the shard is a shard of violence and conflict. And in each case Odium killed a shard there was at least one other shard somehow present or involved.

• Devotion and Dominion were together
• Honour was killed on a planet with Cultivation
• Ambition, initially thought to have been taken on alone, somehow had Mercy involved
  • also, Autonomy may have lent a hand in one or more

I think Odium can take on two shards at the same time and win BECAUSE it is taking on two shards at the same time. Odium is the essence of judo and comedic scenes in fighting films where you get one opponent to hit their allies when they tried to hit you. Odium takes the dissonence between two shards and uses it to weaken one or both of the others. Consider:

• Devotion is giving of yourself to serve, while Dominion is exerting your authority on those who serve. They can work together, yes, but also in opposition
• Honour strives for order and maintaining things, while Cultivation enjoys change. They can work together, together they are science, but they can also be placed against one another - perhaps Honour swore he would never harm Cultivation, or to attack your wife - even if you never promised not to - is beyond what Honour could be made to do, but Cultivation has no such restriction
• Ambition will seize any advantage, crush anyone who gets in the way, while Mercy - even when cruel - seeks the good or at least to end the suffering of others
• And Autonomy could be involved in any of these just to counter the influence of a shard against those who wish to do their own thing

Could Odium's own weakening, Rayse own weakening, be because he was starting to exist in opposition to the power?

 

So, this raises a question - what of Harmony? What happens when Odium faces a pair of shards with a single vessel? Are they immune, the powers of one mind? Only Sazed is not of one mind, not entirely. Could Taravangian, the cunning and intelligent being, who knows everything the power was used to do - at least in theory - be better at this than Rayse? Could he now study the power with a mind that seeks to understand the nature of what it holds in ways a vessel would normally take aeons to understand? Could he find a crack in Sazed's own struggle to balance the power? Could he find a way to turn Sazed against himself?

[Binder]

I'm not sure in which WoB this was said, but it is said that Rayse was planning something for Harmony, even going as far as saying Rayse is scared of Harmony.

[Ixthos he/him]

Just now, Binder said:

I'm not sure in which WoB this was said, but it is said that Rayse was planning something for Harmony, even going as far as saying Rayse is scared of Harmony.

As I recall the reason Odium is scared of Harmony is because he thought Harmony was ... well, in harmony with the two shards, but that the more he learned the less scared he would be. That seems to match the idea that Odium exploits the conflict between shards, and was scared of the idea of two shards that are in complete agreement.

[trav]

8 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Devotion and Dominion were together

I believe that was why they got killed. Endownment (or?) said they broke their agreement. 

Odiums said that this would enable another Shard to kill/splinter him if he did that.

I always wondered how Odium was able to do what he did. RoW gave a possible answer. 

 

nothing special about Odium. the other Shards gave him an opening. 

the only thing special is that hes willing/planning to kill other Shards. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by trav

[Binder]

5 minutes ago, trav said:

I believe that was why they got killed. Endownment (or?) said they broke their agreement. 

Odiums said that this would enable another Shard to kill/splinter him if he did that.

I always wondered how Odium was able to do what he did. RoW gave a possible answer. 

 

nothing special about Odium. the other Shards gave him an opening. 

the only thing special is that hes willing/planning to kill other Shards. 

It has been theorised that Odium exploited the agreement to splinter shards, but since Rhythm of War, I felt that anti-investiture was involved. But whatever the means, it is yet to be seen how he reacts to Harmony's power. But to be fair, some say Harmony's powers are technically opposing each other as he can't act in situations where some believe he should.

[trav]

12 minutes ago, Binder said:

War, I felt that anti-investiture was involved.

the problem is he must find a way to be allowed to take direct action against another Shard before he could use anti-w/e or hes making himself vulnerable too. 

[Binder]

Just now, trav said:

the problem is he must find a way to be allowed to take direct action against another Shard before he could use anti-w/e or hes making himself vulnerable too. 

True. Perhaps he is twisting the words of the agreement? Despite their shards, the vessels themselves are human and loopholes can be made and overlooked.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, trav said:

nothing special about Odium. the other Shards gave him an opening. 

the only thing special is that hes willing/planning to kill other Shards. 

Only thing is that Honor did not belive he had broken any agreement and Brandon has said that Endowment took as an oath what others did not mean as an oath.

[Aspiring Writer]

2 hours ago, trav said:

I believe that was why they got killed. Endownment (or?) said they broke their agreement. 

Odiums said that this would enable another Shard to kill/splinter him if he did that.

I always wondered how Odium was able to do what he did. RoW gave a possible answer. 

 

nothing special about Odium. the other Shards gave him an opening. 

the only thing special is that hes willing/planning to kill other Shards. 

Actually, there was no set oath for that. They all had an understanding but never made it official, and Endowment sees it as a broken oath and that they had it coming, showing she has a heart colder than the artic. There is no broken promise for odium to exploit, especially since that would make him weak as well and make things look very different, as odium would then use agents to kills Shard rather than doing it himself.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

4 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Actually, there was no set oath for that. They all had an understanding but never made it official, and Endowment sees it as a broken oath and that they had it coming, showing she has a heart colder than the artic. There is no broken promise for odium to exploit, especially since that would make him weak as well and make things look very different, as odium would then use agents to kills Shard rather than doing it himself.

Of course, she also arranged for Nightblood to end up on Roshar...

[trav]

11 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Only thing is that Honor did not belive he had broken any agreement and Brandon has said that Endowment took as an oath what others did not mean as an oath.

would be nice if you could fine me the quote for that one. or at least give me some pointers where this was said.

11 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Actually, there was no set oath for that.

" It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish—violating our pact from the very beginning "

Odium is not allowed to take direction action against another Shard.
we may presume that Aona and Skai seemingly violated the agreement by settling on the same planet. I think they rather did something else they actually were not allowed to.
Endowments words are not really specific on what they violated.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, trav said:

would be nice if you could fine me the quote for that one. or at least give me some pointers where this was said.

" It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish—violating our pact from the very beginning "

Odium is not allowed to take direction action against another Shard.
we may presume that Aona and Skai seemingly violated the agreement by settling on the same planet. I think they rather did something else they actually were not allowed to.
Endowments words are not really specific on what they violated.

We'll find out where it was said, but for now have this.

Mason Wheeler

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

 

So first off, it says go separate ways, not to bother any Shard, and the Shard of Honor and oaths did not see being with another shard as a breaking of that oath anyways, even if there was one. 

Also, from what I remember, i think they decided to stay their separate ways maybe before they took up the shard and so they are not beholden to it.

Edit: AHA, I was right.

Shadow Guardian

You have mentioned that the Shards... they did not make an oath to have only one per planet, although the suggestion was made. Have any of the Shards made an oath that has bound themselves, expecting the others to follow suit?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Oaths have been made, that have been unwise oaths. You have even seen one of those - the oath between Ruin and Preservation. But that's not the only example of oaths being used in ways that bind the Shards in ways they weren't expecting.

get rekt, I can't believe I remember this but not how to do ASL

Edit2: And 'm proven double right, they didn't make it an Oath. YES. I AM ALL KNOWING. 

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Curious, what does an archivist's job constitute, and can I be one? What are the requirements to get that job? Not like I can work with Covid still locking me in my house.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[trav]

" No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement. "

this is the quote the WOB means.

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

" It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish—violating our pact from the very beginning "

you are still under the assumption that what Endowment is referring to in both quotes is the same thing.
this quote doesn't say what it was that they broke while the other one above does. one is referring to an agreement the other to a pact.

 

 

[basement_boi he/him]

I think Autonomy has to be involved. Odium says “we killed you” in Oathbringer. We know he was somewhat friendly with Autonomy. He had to have some help, because he had trouble with the power.