The Sovereign Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 @Ookla The Frustrated Could you change your subject line since that is a major spoiler for people who haven't read RoW yet...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Sovereign said: @Ookla The Frustrated Could you change your subject line since that is a major spoiler for people who haven't read RoW yet... This the RoW board. Why would people be on here if they haven’t read it? 1
trav Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 (edited) the Sibling was forced into a bond with someone it calls unworthy. I also see no reason to keep the bond up once the imminent danger subsided. not under these circumstances. we don't necessarily know what the Sibling actually thinks though. imo the Sibling was either lying about its opinion of Navani or it decided to try to make the bond work anyways now that its already established. for one reason or another. the Sibling is very smart for an unbound Spren. it knew that humans were good with words and convincing in arguments. it did not like that fact, but it still accepted when Navani was right. the Sibling is reasonable and was shown to change its mind on things. I can see it having changed its mind about Navani, but not openly admitting to it. not yet. Edited December 10, 2020 by trav 1
The Sovereign Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: This the RoW board. Why would people be on here if they haven’t read it? You don't need to be in the board to see the subject if it is the most recently posted in topic. Edited December 10, 2020 by The Sovereign
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 Just now, The Sovereign said: You don't need to be in the board to see the subject if it is the most recently posted topic. Huh. Did not know that. That seems to be a design error...
GameOfGroans Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 15 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: Worthiness is not something the reciver get's to decide. I don't think this point has been discussed yet, but Navani's flashback to Gavilar's abuse and rejection of it does not serve to force the Sibling. It serves for her to find inner strength, to not get stuck in whatever somebody might say to her, to not get lost in her self-criticism, but to recognize she knows herself best, which gives her the courage to keep going. So when she refuses the Sibling's judgment, it's not to convince the spren, but herself. This motivates her to keep looking for a solution, rather than feel helpless and give up immediately. In the end the Sibling finds her worthy when she finds the right rhythm to help it. 1
Pathfinder Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 8 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Unclear. He may have been under orders he merely executed. Sending the visions were orders that had to be execute. Who the visions were sent to was left to the Stormfather to decide. It is mentioned specifically in the quote I posted in a prior post. 8 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Why could Dalinar force the issue? I took it as the Stormfather relenting and admitting that Dalinar did realize what the oath was, and sufficiently swore it to be accepted. To me still doesn't mean the Stormfather couldn't have refused. He did at first, and even then he is still convinced Dalinar and humans will ultimately kill the spren again. Only over time as the bond deepened and the stormfather's empathy grows, that he begins to understand humans. 8 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Honor and the Stormfather are very much letter of the law. It is possible that the Stormfather was not required to admit that he could be forced if conditions were met. If that was the case, then why not admit it after the fact? 8 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Well, to be perfectly blunt, Honor and Cultivation created The Sibling for a reason and, ethics aside, as a tool with a prescribed purpose - namely to be an HQ and fortress. Not sure what this is regarding or meant to show. Could you elaborate? 8 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The purpose of the visions is to arrange for a duel of champions. Such an agreement requires somebody authorized to mess with the Oathpact. How would that work without a Bondsmith? In particular, as that Bondsmith has to speak for Honor, how would that work without a Bondsmith bonded to the Stormfather, who is Honor's remnant? I took the visions as a warning and a "how to book" to pass on info. The visions literally say "hey something big is coming. Come together as a united force. If that doesn't work and things are against you, try to get him to agree to a contest of champions. It will buy you time". Like saying "hey you got a big test coming up, these study guides helped me. Here is a study trick that has worked before". 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Sylphrena is a Honorspren. The Sibling is not. And they did not do it then and there. As far as we know there is "Debonder" device bought from the Ire somewhere in Lasting Integrity. I agree, especially considering the WoB posted earlier that confirmed a spren bond can be forcibly removed via hemalurgy assuming the knight did not break the oaths. Building on that, we find out that Ishar could do that due to being a bondsmith. I agree, I could not see that working on a bondsmith spren versus a spren like Syl. 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Whatever be the case, for sure nobody ever tested divorcing a Bondsmith from The Sibling. I agree. 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: A Spren is not the government. In particular they have a problem nreaking their word. The Sibling is a product of Cultivation and Honor. Cultivation is not a fan of regression and stasis. To Honor an oath is an oath. Good points. 2 hours ago, trav said: the Sibling was forced into a bond with someone it calls unworthy. I also see no reason to keep the bond up once the imminent danger subsided. not under these circumstances. we don't necessarily know what the Sibling actually thinks though. But the danger has not subsided. The imminent threat is not present, but the sibling is unable to protect itself via the tower's protection without a bondsmith. The sibling was playing dead all this time. Now the enemy knows for a fact that it is alive and kicking. If Navani and the Sibling ended their bond, it would be laying out the red carpet, inviting Team Odium to attack the tower again and attempt to corrupt/kill the sibling. Especially now that they have the technology that was developed that can kill spren for good. 1 hour ago, GameOfGroans said: I don't think this point has been discussed yet, but Navani's flashback to Gavilar's abuse and rejection of it does not serve to force the Sibling. It serves for her to find inner strength, to not get stuck in whatever somebody might say to her, to not get lost in her self-criticism, but to recognize she knows herself best, which gives her the courage to keep going. So when she refuses the Sibling's judgment, it's not to convince the spren, but herself. This motivates her to keep looking for a solution, rather than feel helpless and give up immediately. In the end the Sibling finds her worthy when she finds the right rhythm to help it. I agree. Well said. 1
NysemePtem he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 I also have mixed feelings about Navani's bond. Going into this book, I assumed as a matter of course that Navani would bond the Sibling and I was deeply excited for it. Then we got to know the Sibling, and it's opinion of Navani - and more importantly, fabrials. Our assumption that Navani and the Sibling would be great for each other was based largely on the idea that they're both into fabrials - but Urithiru is run by fabrials made out of the Sibling itself, not enslaved spren. Even by the end of the book,the Sibling is still uncomfortable with her use of them. Furthermore, the introduction of Rlain as a candidate excited me. However, he never had on screen interactions with the Sibling that let us judge their compatibility. In the end, I'm mostly happy with how things turned out. But Navani claiming the Sibling felt... Not unearned, but badly done.
Frustration Posted December 10, 2020 Author Posted December 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Sylphrena is a Honorspren. The Sibling is not. And they did not do it then and there. As far as we know there is "Debonder" device bought from the Ire somewhere in Lasting Integrity. Whatever be the case, for sure nobody ever tested divorcing a Bondsmith from The Sibling. Fair enough 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: A Spren is not the government. In particular they have a problem nreaking their word. The Sibling is a product of Cultivation and Honor. Cultivation is not a fan of regression and stasis. To Honor an oath is an oath. Cultivation is also willing to cut off anything preventing growth, an unworhty bondmate, for something that will grow, a Worthy Bondmate. 3 hours ago, trav said: the Sibling was forced into a bond with someone it calls unworthy. I also see no reason to keep the bond up once the imminent danger subsided. not under these circumstances. we don't necessarily know what the Sibling actually thinks though. imo the Sibling was either lying about its opinion of Navani or it decided to try to make the bond work anyways now that its already established. for one reason or another. the Sibling is very smart for an unbound Spren. it knew that humans were good with words and convincing in arguments. it did not like that fact, but it still accepted when Navani was right. the Sibling is reasonable and was shown to change its mind on things. I can see it having changed its mind about Navani, but not openly admitting to it. not yet. I suppose it's possible but the Sibling has so far said everything it needed to. 2 hours ago, The Sovereign said: You don't need to be in the board to see the subject if it is the most recently posted in topic. In the dark blue band that says Rhythm of War and Dawnshard spoiler area there is an arrow pointing down on the right side of the bar, if you click it it will point to the left and the whole section will be hidden. 1 hour ago, GameOfGroans said: I don't think this point has been discussed yet, but Navani's flashback to Gavilar's abuse and rejection of it does not serve to force the Sibling. It serves for her to find inner strength, to not get stuck in whatever somebody might say to her, to not get lost in her self-criticism, but to recognize she knows herself best, which gives her the courage to keep going. So when she refuses the Sibling's judgment, it's not to convince the spren, but herself. This motivates her to keep looking for a solution, rather than feel helpless and give up immediately. In the end the Sibling finds her worthy when she finds the right rhythm to help it. It's not played as she needed the strength, it's played as, I've dealt with abusse I deserve this. Never questioning the fact that abusse does not entitle you to niegh infinate power. 9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: But the danger has not subsided. The imminent threat is not present, but the sibling is unable to protect itself via the tower's protection without a bondsmith. The sibling was playing dead all this time. Now the enemy knows for a fact that it is alive and kicking. If Navani and the Sibling ended their bond, it would be laying out the red carpet, inviting Team Odium to attack the tower again and attempt to corrupt/kill the sibling. Especially now that they have the technology that was developed that can kill spren for good. But the Sibling could have a Bondsmith still, one it deams worthy, Rlain. 1
Pathfinder Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: But the Sibling could have a Bondsmith still, one it deams worthy, Rlain. Rlain is already bonded to a corrupted truthwatcher spren. For an entity that is all about representing bodily autonomy, and defending spren from abuse, they will then demand a mutual bond to be ended, so they would get Rlain instead?
Frustration Posted December 10, 2020 Author Posted December 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Rlain is already bonded to a corrupted truthwatcher spren. For an entity that is all about representing bodily autonomy, and defending spren from abuse, they will then demand a mutual bond to be ended, so they would get Rlain instead? WoB Spoiler tganchero (paraphrased) Is it true that humans can bond to multiple spren? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They can theoretically bond to multiple spren. Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014) And on the note of unbonding I founnd this on accident. Spoiler Extesian Simple, harmless, totally non-contro one. Can a spren unilaterally sever a Nahel bond (i.e. where the Radiant doesn't agree and hasn't technically, according to spren and Radiant, broken an oath)? Brandon Sanderson Yup, no controversy here at all. This is possible. But I'm not going to go into the mechanics. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)
Pathfinder Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: WoB Hide contents tganchero (paraphrased) Is it true that humans can bond to multiple spren? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They can theoretically bond to multiple spren. Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014) They can theoretically bond, but they have to be able to maintain the oaths of both spren. Do we know a corrupted truthwatcher spren's oaths are the same as a truthwatcher's? If so, do we also know the oaths of a regular truthwatcher is compatible, or able to be maintained in line with a bondsmith's oaths? Finally, if a corrupted truthwatcher spren's oaths are different than a regular's, then are we sure that version is compatible? A person can have the tendencies of multiple orders but that doesn't mean they can maintain the oaths, nor that the oaths are necessarily similar to do so. Quote And on the note of unbonding I founnd this on accident. Hide contents Extesian Simple, harmless, totally non-contro one. Can a spren unilaterally sever a Nahel bond (i.e. where the Radiant doesn't agree and hasn't technically, according to spren and Radiant, broken an oath)? Brandon Sanderson Yup, no controversy here at all. This is possible. But I'm not going to go into the mechanics. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018) Still requires a mechanism, or mechanic. And we are still talking the SIbling versus normal spren. edit: also just a little nit pick, but the "simple, harmless, totally non-contro one" part was in reference to the type of question. Not whether or not the severing of the bond on the part of the spren was harmless. The questioner was asking, because they thought if spren couldn't break oaths, then the bond would constitute as an oath, and thereby be unable to break it. Finally personally I still do not see the difference between the Stormfather/Dalinar and SIbling/Navani in this. They are both individuals with painful pasts. They both got involved with spren that hated them in the beginning, and resisted bonding them. They both were put into situations where they relented to bond. They both are still suspicious in the beginning. And I believe, much like the stormfather, and as Navani said, over time the Sibling and Navani will reach an understanding/accord. Edited December 10, 2020 by Pathfinder 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Sending the visions were orders that had to be execute. Who the visions were sent to was left to the Stormfather to decide. It is mentioned specifically in the quote I posted in a prior post. Decide is so ambigious a word. Did Honor set out the goals and let the Stormfather decide? Or did he set criteria the Stormfather had to follow? 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Not sure what this is regarding or meant to show. Could you elaborate? The Sibling is an artificial product. We must consider that Honor and Cultivation took the purpose of their creation into the design of not only Urithiru physically but also The Sibling's mind. Urithiru has a specific purpose. It is best served while The Sibling is bound to a Bondsmith already residing in Urithiru and good in logistics, city planning, science and so on. Now The Sibling has certain freedoms, but we cannot assume that Honor and Cultivation left their creature full freedom to reject a Bondsmith that fulfills their narrow criteria specific to Urithiru after being bonded. In a certain sense the Sibling is a slave and designed and created for that role. I would consider it for example likely that The Sibling would be unable to hide intruders from Navani even if such a decision weren't suicidal. 3 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: Cultivation is also willing to cut off anything preventing growth, an unworhty bondmate, for something that will grow, a Worthy Bondmate. The woman who advanced Roshar's understanding of the arcane arts by decades within a few days is unworthy? The woman who got much of Urithiru's infrastructure running all on her own is unworthy? Cultivation is a member of another species shaped by a Shard for thousands of years. Her measurement of worth is unlikely to be bound by modern human ethical considerations. We have only her own words: "that includes the thorns". These words pretty much rule out some considerations. 3 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: But the Sibling could have a Bondsmith still, one it deams worthy, Rlain. If your dreams include formenting peace between peoples, well yes. If. Well, if those are your goals you probably won't have a friendly chat with Odium. 1
Nymeros Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 I just think it was boring and obvious development. 1
GameOfGroans Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 16 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: It's not played as she needed the strength, it's played as, I've dealt with abusse I deserve this. Never questioning the fact that abusse does not entitle you to niegh infinate power. ... Whaaa...? Please find me a quote that insinuates anything like that. She doesn't go into a victim role, she rejects the victim role, rejects the influence abuse used to have on her, refuses to believe her own self-dismissal anymore. The Sibling's acceptance of her has nothing to do with abuse, but with the fact she's the only one who is able to help him, the only one who figured out not only the anti-Odium tune, but also the rhythm of the Sibling itself. She worked her heart out, under enormous pressure, and maybe that moment is when Sibling finally becomes fully aware of that. 12 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The woman who advanced Roshar's understanding of the arcane arts by decades within a few days is unworthy? The woman who got much of Urithiru's infrastructure running all on her own is unworthy? This bears repeating. I cannot not wonder where all the insistent need of some people to deny Navani's value and dismiss her work and her results come from.
trav Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 5 hours ago, Nymeros said: I just think it was boring and obvious development. unfortunately. throwing Rlain in the mix was obviously a red herring. same goes for Dabbid. maybe I am interpreting the passages wrong and the Sibling was convinced by Navani in the end. I still don't like it. I never liked that Kholins and friends did everything. even marrying one (or two...) is enough, apparently. 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 7 hours ago, Nymeros said: I just think it was boring It was well done. 7 hours ago, Nymeros said: and obvious development. Yes. Though now I must ask. The story has to stay plausible, doesn't it? I fail to see how this can be happen without a certain number of obvious things happening. I would go as far as calling that close to the definition of plausibility. 2 hours ago, trav said: I still don't like it. I never liked that Kholins and friends did everything. even marrying one (or two...) is enough, apparently. If you want to change things, you will go for those who already have political power, if you are pursuing a simple strategy. If you are a member of a different species, anything else cannot be expected. 1
trav Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Oltux72 said: anything else cannot be expected. worked alright for Kaladin and the rest of Bridge Four. there was absolutely no need in the story to make every Kholin and their grandmother a full on Radiant. not to mention 2 of the 3 possible Bondsmiths included... Navani was already special. very special. extraordinarily special. this just became absurd at some point. SA Kholin characters are like 12y olds table top fantasies. this is irritating. its not destroying the book for me as a whole. its still irritating.
StanLemon Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 I agree that I would have preferred Rlain bond the Sibling. I don't have so much an issue with Navani becoming a Radiant but I think it would have been better storytelling and character development had it been Rlain 1
Frustration Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: If you want to change things, you will go for those who already have political power, if you are pursuing a simple strategy. If you are a member of a different species, anything else cannot be expected. All of world history disagrees with you. 3
Chaos he/him Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 Yep, that's just how the forum works. There are other places (like profiles) that topic titles can be seen. So no spoilers in topic titles; that is our policy. I have changed this one. Please just report topic titles like this. And yes please no big spoilers in titles, @Ookla The Frustrated 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: All of world history disagrees with you. Honor's plan is a political alliance of all of Roshar, not some kind of social revolution or reform. He needs an Alexander or Caesar, somebody who has troops. Picking somebody like Lift or the Stump works for the less political orders. The Bondsmiths are most emphatically not among those.
ScadrianTank he/him Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 Sibling said that Navani isn't worthy for two reasons: They don't like Navani capturing spren. They don't like humans. But Navani is worthy. No one in the Tower understands city management, building infrastructure, and fabrials. She kept an entire nation running after its king decided to start going on worldhopping vacations after politics bored him. All these qualities are vital for Urithiru to function as a cultural, political, and economic heart of the Coalition. Rlain would have been a great Bondsmith, but not a Sibling Bondsmith, especially considering the circumstances. 1
Frustration Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said: Sibling said that Navani isn't worthy for two reasons: They don't like Navani capturing spren. They don't like humans. But Navani is worthy. No one in the Tower understands city management, building infrastructure, and fabrials. She kept an entire nation running after its king decided to start going on worldhopping vacations after politics bored him. All these qualities are vital for Urithiru to function as a cultural, political, and economic heart of the Coalition. And that qualifies her for unlimited power? Being a good manager does not make you worthy of that kind of power. In worthyness the Sibling is Judge Jury and Executioner, if It determines you aren't worthy then you aren't. That kind of power needs checks, we saw how Ishar used that power and he wasn't even trying to do harm, imagine if Taravangian had the Honorblade? How easy manipulation could be? It's terrifing and anyone unworthy should be kept from it.
ScadrianTank he/him Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said: And that qualifies her for unlimited power? Being a good manager does not make you worthy of that kind of power. In worthyness the Sibling is Judge Jury and Executioner, if It determines you aren't worthy then you aren't. That kind of power needs checks, we saw how Ishar used that power and he wasn't even trying to do harm, imagine if Taravangian had the Honorblade? How easy manipulation could be? It's terrifing and anyone unworthy should be kept from it. Bondsmiths of old were not qualified for "unlimited power" either. While new Bondsmiths are more powerful, their Oaths are the same. You keep saying that Navani is unworthy, but the Sibling themselves accepted her Oath. So she judged her worthy of a bond after all. The biggest check on Navani or any Sibling Bondsmith is that their powers are tied to the Tower. So she is a lot more restricted than Dalinar in this regard. Navani's knowledge of fabrials and engineering with access to what seems to be unlimited Investiture is a more dangerous aspect of her, in my opinion. She is much more likely to break something with flying machines or fabrial guns than Connection.
Recommended Posts