Ghostbloods in Book 5

[Toaster Retribution]

As the title suggests, where do we think this plot is going? Knowing Brandon, it will tie in to the Contest of Champions and the general endgame somehow. So in what way will the Ghostbloods contribute? Will they stay neutral, or side with or against Mr T/Odium? Will Mraize hunt Shallan? Will Shallan kill Mraize, or is he making it past Book 5 and into the back half/other Cosmere stories? Will we ever see Iyatil again? And will Lift be involved somehow, given that she spent some time in their captivity in this book? So many questions...

[Karger]

21 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Will they stay neutral, or side with or against Mr T/Odium?

I don't think the GBs will ever be neutral.  They would play both sides at solitare.

21 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Will Mraize hunt Shallan?

He kind of said he would.  I don't know if he will do so in the ten days.

21 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Will Shallan kill Mraize, or is he making it past Book 5 and into the back half/other Cosmere stories?

I hope the first.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Karger

[+Harrycrapper]

I have a feeling Shallan and Mraize will both be looking for Ba-Ado-Mishram and they'll have some sort of confrontation that will determine who gets her. But given that Brandon said he needs to get the next Mistborn series in before the second half of SA, they'll most likely be involved in that arc as well. Whether Mraize is still alive or his death is a catalyst for a greater conflict between the Ghostbloods and the Radiants(or at least Shallan/the Lightweavers) remains to be seen. I'm curious to see who/what Mraize brings to the fight. Could be we get an Allomancer vs Knight Radiants sooner than we thought. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Harrycrapper

[Theoryspren]

I believe that there will be a "war" between the Ghostbloods and Shallan as Mraize said there would be at the end of RoW.

Mraize can't let word of Shallans betrayal and refusal to follow Mraize get to the rest of the Ghostbloods. That is because their whole organization is about being the hunter and catching the prey. And if the other Ghostbloods know that Mraize's underlinging is now hunting him they will begin to view him as prey. He has to be worried because if he starts looking like prey any Ghoostblood might think it time to get revenge against him for something or other. The only way Mraize can save face is by quickly killing Shallan before word gets out and then present her body to show that he quickly dealt with the betrayal to show he is strong. So he will attempt to kill her as soon as possible. So I believe that one of Shallan's first chapters back in the physical realm will be an attempted assasination of her by Mraize.

[Necessary Eagle]

3 hours ago, Theoryspren said:

So I believe that one of Shallan's first chapters back in the physical realm will be an attempted assasination of her by Mraize.

Heck, why wait?

[Toaster Retribution]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

I hope the first.

I defenitely hope the second. Mraize is cool.

 

11 hours ago, Theoryspren said:

Mraize can't let word of Shallans betrayal and refusal to follow Mraize get to the rest of the Ghostbloods. That is because their whole organization is about being the hunter and catching the prey. And if the other Ghostbloods know that Mraize's underlinging is now hunting him they will begin to view him as prey. He has to be worried because if he starts looking like prey any Ghoostblood might think it time to get revenge against him for something or other. The only way Mraize can save face is by quickly killing Shallan before word gets out and then present her body to show that he quickly dealt with the betrayal to show he is strong. So he will attempt to kill her as soon as possible. So I believe that one of Shallan's first chapters back in the physical realm will be an attempted assasination of her by Mraize.

One of the Ghostbloods big things is not killing eachother though. That seems to be a very important rule for them. And whoever kills Mraize will no doubt need to face Iyatils wrath afterwards, which isn't that fun. Plus, Mraize seems to be way to confident in the Ghostbloods and their rules to worry that one of his underlings would move against him. But I agree in that Mraize wont let Shallan be left alone for long. She has insulted the Ghostbloods, which is probably worse than insulting Mraize personally, so she needs to go.

[+Oltux72]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

He kind of said he would.  I don't know if he will do so in the ten days.

In Lasting Integrity? Or in Shadesmar in general? That would be difficult.

He'd just wait for her to return and have assassins in Urithiru.

Quote

I hope the first.

Adolin overheared that conversation. Shallan has drawings of Mraize. He will have to flee. Hunting him will be a difficult operation.

 

18 hours ago, Theoryspren said:

Mraize can't let word of Shallans betrayal and refusal to follow Mraize get to the rest of the Ghostbloods. That is because their whole organization is about being the hunter and catching the prey. And if the other Ghostbloods know that Mraize's underlinging is now hunting him they will begin to view him as prey.

Mraize is in deep trouble anyway. If you lost a Surgebinder, a weapon based on a god metal and a Seon you will need to give a justification.

Quote

He has to be worried because if he starts looking like prey any Ghoostblood might think it time to get revenge against him for something or other. The only way Mraize can save face is by quickly killing Shallan before word gets out and then present her body to show that he quickly dealt with the betrayal to show he is strong. So he will attempt to kill her as soon as possible. So I believe that one of Shallan's first chapters back in the physical realm will be an attempted assasination of her by Mraize.

What makes you think that Shallan will return soon? She is just in the place to scout out those alien people. In fact it would be logical for her to send out a few of her people who are not bound to Roshar. She won't get back to Urithiru in ten days anyway.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Oltux72
typo

[Elegy]

Brandon will probably find a way to get them to Urithiru at the latest until the fight of the champions. And if they have to ride starspren to fly to the Oathgate of Azimir! I doubt she'll still be stuck in Shadesmar by that point.

Now that book 5 will wrap up the front 5, I think it's likely it will see the end of Mraize, with new Ghostbloods representatives in the back 5. After all, Brandon promised a decent sense of closure at the middle point of the series (on the level of the first Mistborn book), so the main antagonists will probably be dealt with (although I don't mean that they have to die, just be incapable of doing much more harm during the time between book 5 and 6). And I guess having a hunt as his climax as an antagonist would make sense.

[Kingsdaughter613]

I actually expect a big twist with the GBs. I don’t think we know much about their true goals at all. “Plots behind plots, plans beyond plans. There was always another secret.” Whatever they’re really up to, only ‘Thaidakar’ knows the truth.

We do know which side they’re on though. They aren’t truly neutral.

“Iyatil has reported to Master Thaidakar,” Mraize said, “and he has accepted—after some initial anger—that we will not be able to control the Oathgates. I explained that there at least is a calming wind in this, like the riddens of a storm. With Dalinar controlling the Oathgates, he can prosecute the war against Odium.”

“And that helps your cause?”

“We have no interest in seeing the enemy rule this world, Shallan. Master Thaidakar wishes only to secure a method for gathering and transporting Stormlight.”

They don’t want Odium winning on Roshar. In fact, they may have always intended Dalinar to use the Oathgates; they just wanted to be in control.

They have also been actively hunting the SoH, who were trying to bring back the Desolations. I don’t think that’s an unconnected fact.

It makes sense. Saze is Odium’s greatest threat so he’d likely go after him quickly, before Saze has time to master his powers. Trell (Autonomy?) is already active on Scadrial. The last thing Kelsier wants is another war of the Shards on his homeworld. If Odium looks like he’s going to get free the GBs will throw in their lot with anyone who can keep him chained.

They’re not neutral. They just want to APPEAR neutral.

[Toaster Retribution]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I actually expect a big twist with the GBs. I don’t think we know much about their true goals at all. “Plots behind plots, plans beyond plans. There was always another secret.” Whatever they’re really up to, only ‘Thaidakar’ knows the truth.

We do know which side they’re on though. They aren’t truly neutral.

“Iyatil has reported to Master Thaidakar,” Mraize said, “and he has accepted—after some initial anger—that we will not be able to control the Oathgates. I explained that there at least is a calming wind in this, like the riddens of a storm. With Dalinar controlling the Oathgates, he can prosecute the war against Odium.”

“And that helps your cause?”

“We have no interest in seeing the enemy rule this world, Shallan. Master Thaidakar wishes only to secure a method for gathering and transporting Stormlight.”

They don’t want Odium winning on Roshar. In fact, they may have always intended Dalinar to use the Oathgates; they just wanted to be in control.

They have also been actively hunting the SoH, who were trying to bring back the Desolations. I don’t think that’s an unconnected fact.

It makes sense. Saze is Odium’s greatest threat so he’d likely go after him quickly, before Saze has time to master his powers. Trell (Autonomy?) is already active on Scadrial. The last thing Kelsier wants is another war of the Shards on his homeworld. If Odium looks like he’s going to get free the GBs will throw in their lot with anyone who can keep him chained.

They’re not neutral. They just want to APPEAR neutral.

Very good points. And to be honest, it would be cool to see Mraize teaming up with Shallan and Adolin. Antagonists and protagonists working together is always interesting, and not really something Brandon has been doing much of in Stormlight.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Very good points. And to be honest, it would be cool to see Mraize teaming up with Shallan and Adolin. Antagonists and protagonists working together is always interesting, and not really something Brandon has been doing much of in Stormlight.

Raboniel and Navani?

But yes, it would be awesome. I have a crazy, aluminum foil idea (not theory, just idea) that BAM will corrupt the Deadeyes and Adolin and Shallan will have to accept the GBs help to protect Maya and Testament. (No, I don’t trust ANYTHING Kalak says about BAM. Brandon was very clear that we shouldn’t.) The GBs will move the Spren offworld (which they have indicated they know how to do) to Scadrial for a time.

I may just want Adolin and Shallan worldhopping, visiting Scadrial, and getting to confront ‘Thaidakar’ in person. And for Shallan to draw us a picture of his hands, as well as the eye spike with a scribbled “HOW IS HE ALIVE?!” next to it. And lots of pictures of Scadrian plants, with lots of comments on the ‘novelty’ of non-moving plants.

I also want Kell’s name written phonetically as Kelsee-ay for the entire book. And confirmation that he has a French accent when speaking other languages. I love the fact that he canonically speaks a French-like language, because the French accent suits him very well. Romantic, compelling, and dramatic.

 

[Lightdancer]

8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I actually expect a big twist with the GBs. I don’t think we know much about their true goals at all. “Plots behind plots, plans beyond plans. There was always another secret.” Whatever they’re really up to, only ‘Thaidakar’ knows the truth.

We do know which side they’re on though. They aren’t truly neutral.

“Iyatil has reported to Master Thaidakar,” Mraize said, “and he has accepted—after some initial anger—that we will not be able to control the Oathgates. I explained that there at least is a calming wind in this, like the riddens of a storm. With Dalinar controlling the Oathgates, he can prosecute the war against Odium.”

“And that helps your cause?”

“We have no interest in seeing the enemy rule this world, Shallan. Master Thaidakar wishes only to secure a method for gathering and transporting Stormlight.”

They don’t want Odium winning on Roshar. In fact, they may have always intended Dalinar to use the Oathgates; they just wanted to be in control.

They have also been actively hunting the SoH, who were trying to bring back the Desolations. I don’t think that’s an unconnected fact.

It makes sense. Saze is Odium’s greatest threat so he’d likely go after him quickly, before Saze has time to master his powers. Trell (Autonomy?) is already active on Scadrial. The last thing Kelsier wants is another war of the Shards on his homeworld. If Odium looks like he’s going to get free the GBs will throw in their lot with anyone who can keep him chained.

They’re not neutral. They just want to APPEAR neutral.

Anytime someone quotes "there's always another secret" I'm in.

I like how this theory ties the Ghostblood's motivations to Kelsier's character. He's definitely not a calm, conniving puppet master- well, he is conniving and a puppet master, but not calm. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that motivations like "no more shard-wars on my front lawn" influenced his plans and thus, the Ghostblood's plans.

[Kingsdaughter613]

24 minutes ago, Lightdancer said:

Anytime someone quotes "there's always another secret" I'm in.

I like how this theory ties the Ghostblood's motivations to Kelsier's character. He's definitely not a calm, conniving puppet master- well, he is conniving and a puppet master, but not calm. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that motivations like "no more shard-wars on my front lawn" influenced his plans and thus, the Ghostblood's plans.

I think a lot of people are not considering how Kelsier thinks. He’s someone who keeps his true cards close to the vest. He doesn’t reveal his plans until it’s too late to stop them. So whatever the GBs are really up to, it’s NOT anything they’ve stated. Related, definitely. But not the whole truth.

Let’s think back to the FE crew. The army (lowest rung) knew they were part of the rebellion and were being primed for a major attack. The sub-crews (second lowest) knew that the army was being recruited because the Survivor had a contract with Yeden. The main crew knew that the plan was to bring down the Final Empire. But only Kelsier and OreSeur knew that the (secondary, but realistically the one that would happen) plan was for Kell to become a martyr.

So people like Shallan are the army. Mraize and Kabsal were part of the sub-crews. Iyatil may be main crew, but I think she’s actually on a higher ranked sub-crew. And then there’s Kelsier. Standing at the top, with a plan unknown to any but himself and those ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for it.

Kelsier always has reasons for what he’s doing. He never robbed people for money; money (and power and secrets) was just a way of keeping score. He loves the GAME. The thrill of the con. He’s a liar, a conman, a trickster and a thief.

Ultimately, he doesn’t truly care about controlling Investiture, so that can’t be the true goal. Getting offworld is something he does care about, but not as much as you’d think. He’s playing by proxy, after all and that’s its own challenge. He doesn’t want to get offworld so much as he wants to be the FIRST (Returned don’t count). He wants to be the one to figure it out. Why do you think he hasn’t badgered/tricked Harmony into doing it for him?

So there’s another reason. Another plan. Another SECRET. And that comes down to how he’s changed. He cares about Scadrial. He cares about its people. He cares about that more than himself in some ways, and there is very little he can say that of. So it’s Scadrial. It’s what he tells Spook, and he isn’t lying. He’s not going to let his world be destroyed by warring Shards. Not again. Kelsier will act to Preserve Scadrial and its people.

And if the rest of the Cosmere has to burn to Preserve it? Well, at least one of Scadrial’s gods is willing to set it ablaze.

TLDR; This about protecting Scadrial. It’s about a lot of other things too, but that’s the only one that really matters.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

(No, I don’t trust ANYTHING Kalak says about BAM. Brandon was very clear that we shouldn’t.)

No but Sibling says that it lost it's Rhythm of LIght that day, so something happened.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

No but Sibling says that it lost it's Rhythm of LIght that day, so something happened.

I think Odium became fully Invested in Roshar that day, causing the tones to change from two to three. This fundamental change in the nature of the world caused the Sibling to lose its tune for a moment, and then was unable to find it again because Honor was dying and the tones were no longer as they were.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think Odium became fully Invested in Roshar that day, causing the tones to change from two to three. This fundamental change in the nature of the world caused the Sibling to lose its tune for a moment, and then was unable to find it again because Honor was dying and the tones were no longer as they were.

I can't argue with that logic, it's possible but it being the same day is intresting

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

I can't argue with that logic, it's possible but it being the same day is intresting

I think Odium started slowly becoming Invested in Roshar after striking the killing blow to Honor, although Odium was resisting it. When this happened BAM began to change, becoming something like a Bondsmith Spren, possibly because Odium was using her as a valve to slow his Investmant. As such, she was able to both Connect and create light, which she had never been able to do before. (And possibly had a Bondsmith.)

When she was captured it created a vacuum where Odium’s Investiture should be. And like a Spren drawn to a gemstone, the Shard was drawn to the planet. So it’s not odd that they happened the same day, but that one directly caused the other. The Everstorm began to build that day, too, as a natural outgrowth of Odium becoming fully Invested.

I think BAM is the Spren of the Everstorm, and once she merges with it it will create Voidlight. (Which will be important if the ‘Stormfather is going to die’ theory is correct.) I also think that she’s going to corrupt the deadeye spren, using their hatred and pain (we keep being told how angry the Deadeyes are) to give the Singers forms of power like she did before.

Despite this, I think she needs to be freed as Odium is part of Roshar now, and this she is too. But I think it will be very bad for team Radiant.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think Odium started slowly becoming Invested in Roshar after striking the killing blow to Honor, although Odium was resisting it. When this happened BAM began to change, becoming something like a Bondsmith Spren, possibly because Odium was using her as a valve to slow his Investmant. As such, she was able to both Connect and create light, which she had never been able to do before. (And possibly had a Bondsmith.)

When she was captured it created a vacuum where Odium’s Investiture should be. And like a Spren drawn to a gemstone, the Shard was drawn to the planet. So it’s not odd that they happened the same day, but that one directly caused the other. The Everstorm began to build that day, too, as a natural outgrowth of Odium becoming fully Invested.

I think BAM is the Spren of the Everstorm, and once she merges with it it will create Voidlight. (Which will be important if the ‘Stormfather is going to die’ theory is correct.) I also think that she’s going to corrupt the deadeye spren, using their hatred and pain (we keep being told how angry the Deadeyes are) to give the Singers forms of power like she did before.

Despite this, I think she needs to be freed as Odium is part of Roshar now, and this she is too. But I think it will be very bad for team Radiant.

Reminds me of my "The storms are going to die" theory, man that was forever ago,

You might be right Navani was talking an awful lot about pressure differentials in the book, so it could be foreshadowing.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Reminds me of my "The storms are going to die" theory, man that was forever ago,

You might be right Navani was talking an awful lot about pressure differentials in the book, so it could be foreshadowing.

Who knows? I just know that Brandon said not to trust the Heralds, and I REALLY don’t trust the Herald who was involved in trying to CAUSE a Desolation.  Particularly when this Herald always expected Odium to find a work around and is absolutely terrified of being tortured again. How better to avoid it than to make a deal with the enemy?

It would also make for an awesome twist, and put a whole new spin on parts of RoW.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Toaster Retribution]

8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Raboniel and Navani?

True, although that dynamic wasn't really on equal terms since Raboniel was very clearly in charge with the upper hand the whole time (and Navani was constantly plotting how to betray her). I'm thinking something along the lines of Ahsoka and Maul in Clone Wars, or even (Mistborn Era 1 spoilers):

Spoiler

Yomen and Elend

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

True, although that dynamic wasn't really on equal terms since Raboniel was very clearly in charge with the upper hand the whole time (and Navani was constantly plotting how to betray her). I'm thinking something along the lines of Ahsoka and Maul in Clone Wars, or even (Mistborn Era 1 spoilers):

  Hide contents

Yomen and Elend

 

We’re literally talking about Kelsier running the Ghostbloods here. I think wanings for Era 1 spoilers are a tad redundant, lol!

I think we can argue Elend and the entire crew, if we wanted. Or even Kell and Fuzz, in some ways. Elend and Yeden never met though.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Toaster Retribution]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

We’re literally talking about Kelsier running the Ghostbloods here. I think wanings for Era 1 spoilers are a tad redundant, lol!

I think we can argue Elend and the entire crew, if we wanted. Or even Kell and Fuzz, in some ways. Elend and Yeden never met though.

Fair enough about the spoilers. And I wasn't referring to Yeden. I was talking about Yomen, the obligator ruler of Fadrex City in Hero of Ages. The names are kind of similar though. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Fair enough about the spoilers. And I wasn't referring to Yeden. I was talking about Yomen, the obligator ruler of Fadrex City in Hero of Ages. The names are kind of similar though. 

Oh, whoops. I took off my glasses, and misread the name, lol!

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Oh, whoops. I took off my glasses, and misread the name, lol!

Haha, I suspected something like that had happened.