Question about Dalinar creating Kaladin's vision

[travisperro]

So the question is

Spoiler

In order to help Kaladin, Dalinar clearly reaches into the spiritual realm and uses the Connection between him and Tien to create the vision that helps Kal to accept the 4th Ideal, but should't this Connection be unavailable, as Tien must have already moved to the Beyond?

I thought Brandon Sanderson had said that it would leave the Beyond be, but this confuses me.

Any help to understand it? Thanks

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, travisperro said:

So the question is

  Hide contents

In order to help Kaladin, Dalinar clearly reaches into the spiritual realm and uses the Connection between him and Tien to create the vision that helps Kal to accept the 4th Ideal, but should't this Connection be unavailable, as Tien must have already moved to the Beyond?

I thought Brandon Sanderson had said that it would leave the Beyond be, but this confuses me.

Any help to understand it? Thanks

He’s Connecting Kaladin to the remnants of Tien’s spirit web. That hangs around for some time post-mortem.

[happyman]

7 hours ago, travisperro said:

So the question is

  Reveal hidden contents

In order to help Kaladin, Dalinar clearly reaches into the spiritual realm and uses the Connection between him and Tien to create the vision that helps Kal to accept the 4th Ideal, but should't this Connection be unavailable, as Tien must have already moved to the Beyond?

I thought Brandon Sanderson had said that it would leave the Beyond be, but this confuses me.

Any help to understand it? Thanks

Apparently time isn't a thing in the spiritual realm. I don't know how literally this can be true given that people continually make decisions that change the future, but the past is the past and thus fixed. However, I suspect that this does mean that spiritual bonds transcend time and space, and since Kaladin had an existing, and quite potent, connection to Tien, the fact that he had been dead for years wasn't a barrier in the spiritual realm.

[Subvisual Haze]

If he can Connect Kaladin to his dead brother’s spirit it sounds possible that he could do the same for the deadeyes and their lost Radiants.

[Karger]

I don't think it is to Tein.  I think he is connecting him to some kind of spiritual realm concept or ideal.  He is showing Kaladin Forgiveness and Kaladin's mind puts that concept in a setting he can understand.

[Honorless]

12 hours ago, travisperro said:

So the question is

  Reveal hidden contents

In order to help Kaladin, Dalinar clearly reaches into the spiritual realm and uses the Connection between him and Tien to create the vision that helps Kal to accept the 4th Ideal, but should't this Connection be unavailable, as Tien must have already moved to the Beyond?

I thought Brandon Sanderson had said that it would leave the Beyond be, but this confuses me.

Any help to understand it? Thanks

Quote

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

The Spiritweb will eventually dissolve into the Spiritual Realm but it will hang around as long it still has Connections. Tien is pretty strongly Connected to Kaladin. Basically, a part of a person's Spiritweb will hang around as long as they are remembered.

What goes into the Beyond (either non-existence or an afterlife, it's up to the reader's interpretation and personal belief) is the person's mind or Cognitive self.

And the Physical self is the body. We already know what happens to that.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Honorless

[Gderu]

On 30/11/2020 at 5:55 AM, happyman said:

Apparently time isn't a thing in the spiritual realm. I don't know how literally this can be true given that people continually make decisions that change the future, but the past is the past and thus fixed. However, I suspect that this does mean that spiritual bonds transcend time and space, and since Kaladin had an existing, and quite potent, connection to Tien, the fact that he had been dead for years wasn't a barrier in the spiritual realm.

Time is a thing in the spiritual realm. Place isn't a thing there.

[Leuthie]

Is Dalinar even aware of Tien?

My take: Dalinar can see Connections. There was even a scene where he was practicing his ability to see the lines these Connections formed. He found the largest Connection from Kaladin to someone who was dead, someone Kaladin failed to protect. He used that Connection to pull a "Shadow" to Kaladin. I don't think Tien was pulled from the Beyond. The Connection between Kaladin and the remainder of Tien's Spirit Web allowed a creation in Kaladin's mind that mimicked Tien. ...and Teft, actually.

Spoiler

Say them, Tien whispered.

"I have always known these Words."

Say it, lad! Do it!

"I accept it, Stormfather! I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!"

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Leuthie

[Use the Falchion]

6 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Is Dalinar even aware of Tien?

My take: Dalinar can see Connections. There was even a scene where he was practicing his ability to see the lines these Connections formed. He found the largest Connection from Kaladin to someone who was dead, someone Kaladin failed to protect. He used that Connection to pull a "Shadow" to Kaladin. I don't think Tien was pulled from the Beyond. The Connection between Kaladin and the remainder of Tien's Spirit Web allowed a creation in Kaladin's mind that mimicked Tien. ...and Teft, actually.

  Reveal hidden contents

Say them, Tien whispered.

"I have always known these Words."

Say it, lad! Do it!

"I accept it, Stormfather! I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!"

 

Humorously, when I first read the scene, could have sworn Teft was there in the scene! I thought it was so weird. But earlier today I reread the scene, and now I can't find him anywhere! 

 

[Seloun]

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Humorously, when I first read the scene, could have sworn Teft was there in the scene! I thought it was so weird. But earlier today I reread the scene, and now I can't find him anywhere! 

 

He is (probably):

Quote

“Besides,” he whispered, “I know the Words.”

Say them, Tien whispered.

“I have always known these Words.”

Say it, lad! Do it!

“I accept it, Stormfather! I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

(emphasis mine)

That's certainly not Tien. It could be Dalinar, but Dalinar doesn't usually call Kaladin 'lad' (he does sometimes, but generally seems to prefer 'soldier'). The phrasing is just pure Teft - it's exactly what he'd say, the exact timing for when he'd say it - and it 'feel' better than any other options.

[Use the Falchion]

Just now, Seloun said:

He is (probably):

(emphasis mine)

That's certainly not Tien. It could be Dalinar, but Dalinar doesn't usually call Kaladin 'lad' (he does sometimes, but generally seems to prefer 'soldier'). The phrasing is just pure Teft - it's exactly what he'd say, the exact timing for when he'd say it - and it 'feel' better than any other options.

Oh absolutely. But what I meant is that when I read it, I read it as Teft actually being there. As in, he was hugging Kaladin while Kaladin was hugging Tien. It was weird yet very sweet. Now I see I was just misreading Tien, but at the time...I don't know what I was thinking. 

[Watchcry]

Didn't Evi forgive Dalinar also from the spiritual realm? It makes me wonder if the spiritual realm IS the beyond. 

[Honorless]

5 hours ago, Watchcry said:

Didn't Evi forgive Dalinar also from the spiritual realm? It makes me wonder if the spiritual realm IS the beyond. 

Quote

dIvorrap

Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)

So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.

The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)

What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.

Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

General Reddit 2020 (June 5, 2020)

Quote

Ward

When Harmony Ascends, he admits he doesn't have a good view of the Spiritual Realm. Does he develop a better one over time? And are there other Shards that already have a very good view of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But it is still something that is hard to grok, so to speak, in-canon, *inaudible*, hard to understand. But he has a much better understanding, and the other Shards, some of them have a very good understanding. The thing is, the difference between the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond is not something that is immediately obvious.

Ward

So, the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. There are three Realms of existence. The Beyond, some would say... There are philosophers would would say, the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are one, that the soul gets sucked into and joins the Investiture. That's the idea of the One. But, most people would say the Beyond is not...

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

[Darth_Hel]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:14 PM, Seloun said:

He is (probably):

(emphasis mine)

That's certainly not Tien. It could be Dalinar, but Dalinar doesn't usually call Kaladin 'lad' (he does sometimes, but generally seems to prefer 'soldier'). The phrasing is just pure Teft - it's exactly what he'd say, the exact timing for when he'd say it - and it 'feel' better than any other options.

I didn't relisten, but I'm pretty sure that in the audiobook they used Teft's voice for that line as well.

[stormbourne]

On 11/30/2020 at 7:29 AM, travisperro said:

So the question is

  Reveal hidden contents

In order to help Kaladin, Dalinar clearly reaches into the spiritual realm and uses the Connection between him and Tien to create the vision that helps Kal to accept the 4th Ideal, but should't this Connection be unavailable, as Tien must have already moved to the Beyond?

I thought Brandon Sanderson had said that it would leave the Beyond be, but this confuses me.

Any help to understand it? Thanks

more then just that, time is irrelevant in the spiritual realm, so the vision was through time, much like how the other visions work, this one was just a good deal more recent and possibly using a fresher spirit echo (think spiritual fossil, like vasher talked about)

On 12/3/2020 at 3:14 PM, Seloun said:

He is (probably):

(emphasis mine)

That's certainly not Tien. It could be Dalinar, but Dalinar doesn't usually call Kaladin 'lad' (he does sometimes, but generally seems to prefer 'soldier'). The phrasing is just pure Teft - it's exactly what he'd say, the exact timing for when he'd say it - and it 'feel' better than any other options.

teft was invested so he'd have stuck around for a bit that may have just been straight up him shouting from the cognitive realm, as the storm does significantly weaken the boarders