Moash's views on Kaladin

[---]

Something I was just thinking about, and found interesting, was how Moash saw Kaladin. In the first two books, Kaladin is happy that Moash is around to treat him like a human instead of some mythic being, but then in this book we see Moash mention that you can't kill Kaladin- as if no matter what you do, he won't die. I think it's just interesting, because he wasn't acting like that before iirc. 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, and it was really Moash saying something more along the lines of "you can't kill him [because then he'll become a martyr, or something along those lines, people will continue to fight?]"

Edited November 19, 2020 by Illwei

[Nebelskind]

I think he was treating him along mythic lines. I think Moash, having given up his ability or will to choose, might actually see Kaladin this way, now. Someone who is everything Moash could have been.

 

I also think it had to do with Moash wanting Kaladin to give up on his own, not just be killed. To admit Moash was right.

 

and now I never want to type Moash’s stupid name again haha.

[Ramona Tehradin]

I think there is more to that after reading his interlude with Odium and then, further along the parts especially Part 5. I'll have them noted in spoiler section below. 

Spoiler

Interlude 4- Vyre

INDEED. Odium leaned closer. YOUR FRIEND( Kaladin) IS A PROBLEM TO ME-A BIGGER PROBLEM THAN I HAD ASSUMED. I HAVE FORSEEN THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO BE ONE.

"Kaladin can't be killed." Vyre said. He knew it, sure as he knew the sun was hot and that it circled Roshar forever. 

(That is the first time he mentions it) 

 

Chapter 102- Highstorm Coming 

"I warned you about Stormblessed," Moash said, "I warned all of you. And you did not listen."

"You will kill him." Reboniel said. 

"No enemy can kill Kaladin Stormblessed." Moash said. 

"You promised that-"

"No enemy can kill Stormblessed," Moash said, "He is a force like the storms, and you cannot kill the storms, Fused."

 

Chapter 105- Children of Passions 

"This is nonsense," the Pursuer growled, "I could kill Stormblessed now."

"No." Moash said, grabbing the Pursuer and pointing at his face, "You know I have our master's blessing. You know I speak to Command. You will not touch Stormblessed. You can't hurt him; you can't kill him."

"He'...just a man..."

"Don't touch him," Moash said, "If you interfere, it will awaken him to vengeance. We don't want that yet.

(Tell you what, this line is the most repeated line in the book) 

At first (with severe reluctance), I thought in some sick twist way Moash was trying to protect Kaladin but after reading the interlude, it made me wonder that of course Odium will have plans for him. Kaladin is revered as a hero and we do know that his powers are different from typical Windrunners (remember when he deflected the highstorm in Oathbringer?).  

Spoiler

And also the way he literally blocked the freaking Highstorm with windspren by creating a tunnel of radiant light after speaking his 4th Ideal. There is something very different about Kaladin we don't know yet. Maybe he could be close to Honor somehow? 

And then Odium foresaw something about Kaladin. Perhaps he wanted Kal to give him so that Odium can claim his soul and just like Dalinar chose to be better and refused to be Odium's champion, Kaladin tries throughout the book to overcome his grief. Odium mentions that he cannot strike Kaladin directly which means he is a threat, a threat for something we don't know about. I don't think Kaladin was Dalinar's champion but I truly think Odium was trying to make Kaladin his champion because not only it would be the winning move but also would crumble Dalinar's resolve of losing Kaladin and then fighting the very man who protected him numerous times. 

But I think Moash knows Kaladin's grief would kill him, and Vyre wants to be Odium's champion instead. It could possibly be that, like Moash clearing his path to be Odium's champion. 

Another is Kaladin referred as unbreakable storm- something to do with Honor? There is also that whole 'Child of Tanavast' theory going on which we must keep in mind. 

But why would BS repeat a single line throughout the book? There must be some meaning behind it which could be in accordance to what Odium saw about Kaladin's future that scared him enough to demand having his soul. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Ramona Tehradin

[Honorless]

How likely is it that this might be like the magical sickness of the Heralds in a way? That the existing Connection between Moash and Kaladin, while Kaladin is a Radiant and Moash is... something of Odium's, is affecting how Moash perceives him, rather than being a purely psychological effect?

[CamilleDesmoulins]

Odium wanted Kaladin to be his champion. Moash was supposed to turn him, not kill him. He decided to make Kaladin kill himself as a sort of sick way of protecting him from Odium.

Moash’s way of thinking is very twisted now though, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he convinced himself that Kaladin genuinely couldn’t be killed.

[Revenant]

Moash has been convinced that Kaladin is a god. He saw Kaladin in situations where he should have died, but he always survived. He truly believes that (paraphrasing) "the only hand that can kill Kaladin is his own."

Kaladin killing the Pursuer multiple times only reinforced this. 

[DiePie]

The fact that Moash says that he's as sure of his inability as the sun orbits Roshar seems to indicate to me that Moash is at least a little delusional.

But more seriously, he probably knows that something is up with Kaladin, and that Kaladin is an extremely skilled fighter. His time among the fused probably has probably increased his opinion of Kaladin's abilities, considering how many of the Fused are insane by this point, and how the rest are set in old ways. Combine that with the fact that Moash wants to be the one who gets the chance to go at Kaladin (and to do it on his terms), and I think that explains his view of Kaladin.

[Bort]

Some interesting wording used in here...

Moash knew Kaladin couldn't be killed, as sure as the sun was hot and revolved around Roshar...

Fairly sure that Roshar goes around the sun, not the other way around.

I wonder if this is just allusion to that humans used to think the sun revolved around the Earth, or if there is something more to it?

[+Bzhydack]

On 19.11.2020 at 7:38 AM, Illwei said:

Something I was just thinking about, and found interesting, was how Moash saw Kaladin. In the first two books, Kaladin is happy that Moash is around to treat him like a human instead of some mythic being, but then in this book we see Moash mention that you can't kill Kaladin- as if no matter what you do, he won't die. I think it's just interesting, because he wasn't acting like that before iirc. 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, and it was really Moash saying something more along the lines of "you can't kill him [because then he'll become a martyr, or something along those lines, people will continue to fight?]"

I think there is very easy explanation.

Moash is practicly directly connected to Odium. And thanks to this he knows Odium wants to Kaladin alive (for some reason) and will activly protect Kaladin.

[Elegy]

I think this is an outgrowth of a pretty essential problem with Moash in the story. At the end of Oathbringer, we left him at a turning point. He didn't fully give himself to Odium in that book, even in his last scenes. Then there was the time skip and we returned to him as basically a changed character, since in the meantime, he basically lost all emotions 

I've seen many people claim that they don't recognize Moash, since he's become a cardboard villain who has seemingly forgotten that in the first place, his struggle was one for justice, in a way, and against the flaws of a system. These motivations have been diminished to him being without emotion and downright evil and stupifyingly toxic all the time.

And I think that's a problem with the way Brandon wrote this character, because the off-screen changes in this character have been so strong that there are inconsistencies to his former self. Those can be explained by these changes, but since we haven't been shown these changes, only the result, it's hard to say what's deliberate and what's a writing problem.

Which is an ambiguity that is, in itself, a writing problem, in my opinion.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Elegy

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 hours ago, Elegy said:

I think this is an outgrowth of a pretty essential problem with Moash in the story. At the end of Oathbringer, we left him at a turning point. He didn't fully give himself to Odium in that book, even in his last scenes. Then there was the time skip and we returned to him as basically a changed character, since in the meantime, he basically lost all emotions 

I've seen many people claim that they don't recognize Moash, since he's become a cardboard villain who has seemingly forgotten that in the first place, his struggle was one for justice, in a way, and against the flaws of a system. These motivations have been diminished to him being without emotion and downright evil and stupifyingly toxic all the time.

And I think that's a problem with the way Brandon wrote this character, because the off-screen changes in this character have been so strong that there are inconsistencies to his former self. Those can be explained by these changes, but since we haven't been shown these changes, only the result, it's hard to say what's deliberate and what's a writing problem.

Which is an ambiguity that is, in itself, a writing problem, in my opinion.

Yes. A thousand times this. He was a very interesting character in Oathbringer

[+Oltux72]

On 21.2.2022 at 5:18 PM, Bzhydack said:

I think there is very easy explanation.

Moash is practicly directly connected to Odium. And thanks to this he knows Odium wants to Kaladin alive (for some reason) and will activly protect Kaladin.

I am afraid I cannot support this view. The problem is that Moash was absolutely right. Kaladin should have died there. I'd even say that he expected to. His was the action of a man who draws his sword and throws the scabbard away. Instead he became death incarnate. Moash knew that. The question how Moash knew depends on the question of what happened there.

[+Bzhydack]

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I cannot support this view. The problem is that Moash was absolutely right. Kaladin should have died there. I'd even say that he expected to. His was the action of a man who draws his sword and throws the scabbard away. Instead he became death incarnate. Moash knew that. The question how Moash knew depends on the question of what happened there.

Kaladin absorbed (or rather was given) power/Investiture other than standard Stormlight. He even mentioned later: "He (Odium) wants me". Yes, he want to die there. Moash knew that too, he even call it loud. Kaladin lose if he give up (to Odium or to live) but he cant have reason to fight, because he will be fighting - Kaladin is not man who willingly let other pierce him with the spear. And because Odium wants him, he would not let him die and will give him powers and will riot his survival instinct, when he is fighting, but cant controll him directly, so cant interfere if he would kill himself.

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Kaladin absorbed (or rather was given) power/Investiture other than standard Stormlight. He even mentioned later: "He (Odium) wants me". Yes, he want to die there. Moash knew that too, he even call it loud. Kaladin lose if he give up (to Odium or to live) but he cant have reason to fight, because he will be fighting - Kaladin is not man who willingly let other pierce him with the spear. And because Odium wants him, he would not let him die and will give him powers and will riot his survival instinct, when he is fighting, but cant controll him directly, so cant interfere if he would kill himself.

Moash wants Kaladin to kill himself. He expressly thinks to himself that he would see Kaladin dead before Odium took him.

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:52 AM, Elegy said:

I've seen many people claim that they don't recognize Moash, since he's become a cardboard villain who has seemingly forgotten that in the first place, his struggle was one for justice, in a way, and against the flaws of a system. These motivations have been diminished to him being without emotion and downright evil and stupifyingly toxic all the time.

I think that's an intentional parallel to the Fused, who have also essentially forgotten their original purpose, becoming consumed with the war against humanity/vengeance basically for its own sake.

That's how Odium works, apparently - inflaming anger that may originally be justified, but turning it into hatred (Odium) which becomes something self-justifying.

Possibly this is related to the whole Passion thing... Odium wants to 'sell' himself as a deity of broader emotion.