Let's make groups of 4

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Personification said:

I mean, so is Preservation. All we have is tangents.

I mean, that might just mean it's not the best grouping

Edited November 10, 2020 by beewall

[Personification he/him]

1 minute ago, beewall said:

I mean, that might just mean it's not the best grouping

Sure, but also, Cultivation, Endowment, and Ruin are also all tangential to Change, and EVERYONE seems to agree that if the theory of groupings is correct, that is where they go (with the small exception of Ruin for the Destroy faction).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Personification said:

Sure, but also, Cultivation, Endowment, and Ruin are also all tangential to Change, and EVERYONE seems to agree that if the theory of groupings is correct, that is where they go (with the small exception of Ruin for the Destroy faction).

I mean, those aren't "tangentially related", that's the core of what at least 2 of those 3 are about.

[Personification he/him]

Just now, beewall said:

I mean, those aren't "tangentially related", that's the core of what at least 2 of those 3 are about.

But only when you think of it from the perspective of "what Shards do we know that are connected to change".

If you were to ask me in a vacuum what words connect to change, I probably wouldn't say cultivation and certainly not endowment or ruin, and given any of the three as starting points I likely wouldn't say change. They fit really well, but only knowing both sides (and knowing that Ruin=entropy in context).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Personification said:

If you were to ask me in a vacuum what words connect to change, I probably wouldn't say cultivation and certainly not endowment or ruin, and given any of the three as starting points I likely wouldn't say change. They fit really well, but only knowing both sides (and knowing that Ruin=entropy in context).

I mean, if you ask me what connects to Change, Growth and Decay are probably some of the first ones I'd say, personally, which are pretty close to those two. And we've been associating Ruin and Cultivation with the two sides of change since long before Dawnshard.

[StormingTexan he/him]

I like this! The only thing I am having a hard time with is the "Care" command. I cannot find the exact verb (I agree should be a verb) that would be the best but I think Feel is the closest I can come up with. 

[Personification he/him]

Just now, beewall said:

I mean, if you ask me what connects to Change, Growth and Decay are probably some of the first ones I'd say, personally, which are pretty close to those two. And we've been associating Ruin and Cultivation with the two sides of change since long before Dawnshard.

Yes, but Growth and Decay are not Shards, Ruin and Cultivation are. That is my point. If the "survival Shard" is, Wisdom (a plausible theory), and we learn that that means the Wisdom to avoid danger, that would clearly fit, but Wisdom is tangential to Survival and Survive.

Even if the Intent is only tangential to survival, if you are a Shard, it has to be close enough if that is all you are trying to do.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Personification said:

Yes, but Growth and Decay are not Shards, Ruin and Cultivation are.

I mean, Ruin and Cultivation are imperfect names for the concepts embodied by the Shards. Decay and Growth work pretty well (and in fact Decay was originally going to be Ruin's name).

3 minutes ago, Personification said:

If the "survival Shard" is, Wisdom (a plausible theory), and we learn that that means the Wisdom to avoid danger, that would clearly fit, but Wisdom is tangential to Survival and Survive.

Even if the Intent is only tangential to survival, if you are a Shard, it has to be close enough if that is all you are trying to do.

That's like saying Dominion is Survive because Skai fought back against Odium, or that Cultivation is Survive for trying to do the same. People don't want to die.

[yulerule]

So, Odium.

Definition: general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions.

Syl to Kaladin, regarding Odium: “Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn’t let it go. You … you brought him with you. I wasn’t alive then, but I know this truth. He was your first god, before you turned to Honor.”

 

I'm not sure of the wisdom of subdividing into push/pull. That part feels a little contrived to me.

But there definitely is an external/internal element.

Odium, Honor, Devotion, Ambition, Autonomy - those are internal.

Ruin, Preservation, Dominion - External.

 

Cultivation may be either, though at first, I lean external - cultivation of plants. But at the same time, Cultivation itself pruned Dalinar so he could regrow in a healthier way, so that's internal.

Endowment can also be either, I think, depending from where it comes. But it's mostly external I think.

Internal aspects are emotional / personality parts.

 

Can a Shardic Intent be corrupted? If a godlike being consists of various elements that are generally Benevolent, Odium does not fit. Ruin, yes, as part of a greater whole under Change. 

But I can't see a personality matrix with four elements, one of which is Odium, being smoothly integrated, or you know, benevolent.

So straying from the topic- but can the (original) Shard Intent of Odium have been subverted, corrupted? Possibly by Rayse? 

 

As for grouping under the Dawnshard, Ruin and Cultivation definitely go under Change. 

Honor, Devotion and Ambition, as emotional/personality components also go together, I think. 

[Personification he/him]

1 minute ago, beewall said:

I mean, Ruin and Cultivation are imperfect names for the concepts embodied by the Shards. Decay and Growth work pretty well (and in fact Decay was originally going to be Ruin's name).

That's like saying Dominion is Survive because Skai fought back against Odium, or that Cultivation is Survive for trying to do the same. People don't want to die.

The difference is that Cultivation and Dominion had other things going on. The only thing we know about the "survival Shard" is that its primary agenda is survival. Devotion and Dominion both created religions, Cultivation still cultivates people. They can't avoid their Intent completely.

On the other hand, I could be wrong. I have no illusions that this isn't an early theory based on minimal data.

[StormingTexan he/him]

Another thought just popped in my head on a deeper level of  Sazed's inaction because of the two shards he holds. They also more than likely belong to different commands along with being opposites intents. Although I think an argument could be made that you can change things to survive so not really opposite like the intent but possible used in conjunction. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 minutes ago, Personification said:

The difference is that Cultivation and Dominion had other things going on. The only thing we know about the "survival Shard" is that its primary agenda is survival. Devotion and Dominion both created religions, Cultivation still cultivates people. They can't avoid their Intent completely.

If Wisdom is the hiding Shard, which is not confirmed but I find likely, we do know it over time has changed its mind on survival being top priority.

Quote

Paleo (paraphrased)

Is Wisdom a Shard? If so, how bad does it want to survive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is a Shard with a similar intent. The Shard has realized that survival might not be the most desirable/important.

Footnote: Paleo later asked Brandon for clarification on this one because he couldn't quite remember the survival part when he wrote it down. Brandon stressed again what the Shard has realized.
Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Quote

Paleo

In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time.

Paleo

Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Paleo

And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close?

Brandon Sanderson

Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

[yulerule]

Also, I submit that one of the Dawnshards is Live!, not Survive. 

To me survive sounds like barely scaping by, always on the edge of dying. 

Live! feels like live life to the fullest.

As my interpretation of Adolnasium is that of a life-giving sun, creator thing, I feel Live! is a closer approximation of one of its key concepts.

[Leuthie]

Quick aside:

We have talked with 2 dead/dying Shard holders: Leras and Tanavast. In both cases, they repeated a command to people:

• Leras repeated "Survive" to at least Kelsier and I believe someone else.
• Dalinar is hearing "Unite them" repeated since bonding Stormfather.
  • Stormfather says it isn't him
  • Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow and a large Splinter of Honor "ride the storm" with the Stormfather

It has also been said that Honor began to care more about the letter of oaths rather than the spirit as Tanavast was nearing death.

It's quiet possible that Shards and their holders revert to their base Intent as they are dying. In Leras-Preservation, this meant Survival. In Tanavast-Honor, this meant Unity.

All of which support the OP, although with a small sample size and a few leaps of logic.

[Wandering Investor]

I'm liking this, it's starting to feel like we're actually seeing the behind the scenes system Brandon is using to run the cosmere.

 

I would propose ingenuity as the last of the Change Shards. Involves not only changing the tools/technology, but using the tools to change the world.

I'd also change 'Care' to 'Experience', as the other dawnshards about this world, and this one is you experiencing the world.

And I'd propose Sorrow as the last of the Care/Experience shards. Another runner up is fear, but that doesn't really fit the god scheme and messes with the survive shards. Also, the Threnody system has a bunch of stuff named after sorrowful things, so that lines up nicely with this shard arranging that. 

And this last one isn't as confident as the others, but maybe wisdom/prudence under survival? 

[Personification he/him]

33 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

I'm liking this, it's starting to feel like we're actually seeing the behind the scenes system Brandon is using to run the cosmere.

 

I would propose ingenuity as the last of the Change Shards. Involves not only changing the tools/technology, but using the tools to change the world.

I'd also change 'Care' to 'Experience', as the other dawnshards about this world, and this one is you experiencing the world.

And I'd propose Sorrow as the last of the Care/Experience shards. Another runner up is fear, but that doesn't really fit the god scheme and messes with the survive shards. Also, the Threnody system has a bunch of stuff named after sorrowful things, so that lines up nicely with this shard arranging that. 

And this last one isn't as confident as the others, but maybe wisdom/prudence under survival? 

So, something felt off to me about Experience, and I was trying to figure out what it was, but as I tried to build up the argument against it I started to accidentally put together evidence for it in my head, and over the course of like a minute I went from skeptical to fully on board. Experience fits really well with the Iriali Long Trail and the belief that the One needs to experience things.

If it is Experience, then I would say the fourth member would be something like Curiosity, which also fits really well as the External Pulling Shard for my version of the theory.

[AbuTheBaker]

Anyone ever thought that we could group 16 Myers Briggs types and 16 mistings or 16 shards

im an INFJ so I would probably be a soother maybe

[Leuthie]

Just spit balling here. Let's say Branderson used the Biblical Creation myth as a template for his god, and the Dawnshards represent the 4 basic things a god can do.

Creation (from http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/genesis/documents/bible_genesis_en.html):

Spoiler

[1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [1:3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. [1:4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. [1:5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. [1:6] And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." [1:7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. [1:8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. [1:9] And God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. [1:10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. [1:11] Then God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it." And it was so. [1:12] The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good. [1:13] And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. [1:14] And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, [1:15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. [1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night - and the stars. [1:17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, [1:18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. [1:19] And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. [1:20] And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky." [1:21] So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good. [1:22] God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." [1:23] And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day. [1:24] And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind." And it was so. [1:25] God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind. And God saw that it was good. [1:26] Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." [1:27] So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. [1:28] God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." [1:29] God said, "See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. [1:30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. [1:31] God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

So let's see.

1. God created a formless void and windy waters. (creation)
2. God created light (creation)
3. God separated the sky from the waters (separation)
4. God created dry ground by collecting the waters (collection)
5. God created vegetation (creation)
6. God created the Sun and the Moon (creation)
7. God created creatures of the water and the sky (creation)
8. God told them to multiply (impression)
9. God created creatures of the land (creation)
10. God created man (and woman) in his image to have dominion over His other creations (creation)
11. God told man to multiply and subdue (impression)

So there was Creation, Separation, Collection and Impression.

If we assume that Investiture, Energy and Matter are conserved (they are neither created nor destroyed, they only change forms), then Creation and Change are one and the same.

Collection, Binding, Unity, etc. are same/similar.

Separation goes hand in hand with Collection, and is a requirement as without it everything would end up bound together.

Impression is the wild card here and my main contribution to this. In the Cosmere, this would be changing the Cognitive. Why wouldn't this be covered by Change? Because of the Soul and Free Will. If god were to use Change, there would be no Free Will. Impression redefines but allows Free Will in the how. It is the ability to change the Cognitive only.

I mean, Physically, anything can be done with Change, Unify (Bind without changing) and Separate (take apart without changing). I really have a hard time coming up with anything, Physically, that can't be done with those 3 "Commands". That leave one class of work that a god might want to accomplish: changing hearts and minds.

 

So I'm going with Change, Unity, Separation and Impression

Edited November 15, 2020 by Leuthie

[Cheat Commando he/him]

In response to those who were trying to find a synonym for "Care," might I suggest "Desire?" For me, that makes sense as the group for Odium and Ambition (plus two more).

[phoenix2563]

What about "Strive" for the fourth dawnshard?  This also fits both Odium and Ambition, and also opens the door for a shard such as "ingenuity".  To me, this grouping fits the cognitive quadrant well.

So my four are Survive (physical), Change (temporal), Unite (spiritual) and Strive (cognitive).

Edited November 14, 2020 by phoenix2563

[DuffMcGruff]

I like Change, Survive, Expand/Multiply, and the fourth, "different" Dawnshard having something to do with self awareness.

[Winter]

I've got an order I like so far but am having trouble with the 4th and endowment

The Command of Ideal

Honor, Odium (as righteous anger as said in one of the letters), Ambition, wisdom/prudence (existence implied in WoB)

The Command of Transformation

Ruin, Preservation (as in knowing when to not transform), cultivation

The Command of Will

Dominion, Devotion, Autonomy

The Command of Creation????

Endowment

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 11/13/2020 at 6:53 PM, Leuthie said:

Just spit balling here. Let's say Branderson used the Biblical Creation myth as a template for his god, and the Dawnshards represent the 4 basic things a god can do.

Creation:

  Hide contents

[1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [1:3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. [1:4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. [1:5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. [1:6] And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." [1:7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. [1:8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. [1:9] And God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. [1:10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. [1:11] Then God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it." And it was so. [1:12] The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good. [1:13] And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. [1:14] And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, [1:15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. [1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night - and the stars. [1:17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, [1:18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. [1:19] And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. [1:20] And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky." [1:21] So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good. [1:22] God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." [1:23] And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day. [1:24] And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind." And it was so. [1:25] God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind. And God saw that it was good. [1:26] Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." [1:27] So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. [1:28] God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." [1:29] God said, "See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. [1:30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. [1:31] God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

So let's see.

1. God created a formless void and windy waters. (creation)
2. God created light (creation)
3. God separated the sky from the waters (separation)
4. God created dry ground by collecting the waters (collection)
5. God created vegetation (creation)
6. God created the Sun and the Moon (creation)
7. God created creatures of the water and the sky (creation)
8. God told them to multiply (impression)
9. God created creatures of the land (creation)
10. God created man (and woman) in his image to have dominion over His other creations (creation)
11. God told man to multiply and subdue (impression)

So there was Creation, Separation, Collection and Impression.

If we assume that Investiture, Energy and Matter are conserved (they are neither created nor destroyed, they only change forms), then Creation and Change are one and the same.

Collection, Binding, Unity, etc. are same/similar.

Separation goes hand in hand with Collection, and is a requirement as without it everything would end up bound together.

Impression is the wild card here and my main contribution to this. In the Cosmere, this would be changing the Cognitive. Why wouldn't this be covered by Change? Because of the Soul and Free Will. If god were to use Change, there would be no Free Will. Impression redefines but allows Free Will in the how. It is the ability to change the Cognitive only.

I mean, Physically, anything can be done with Change, Unify (Bind without changing) and Separate (take apart without changing). I really have a hard time coming up with anything, Physically, that can't be done with those 3 "Commands". That leave one class of work that a god might want to accomplish: changing hearts and minds.

 

So I'm going with Change, Unity, Separation and Impression

Wow. I did not realize the translations were this bad.

There was only ONE act of creation: the very first word Bereishis (Nachmanides). After God creates the Beginning, every other act is separation. The building blocks of everything were created with the word Bereishis, and the rest was separating out those blocks and putting things into the forms as we know them.

Only the first word was Creation from nothing. And these translations are pretty bad. I already knew about the misinterpretation of Bereishis Barah Elokim. And how Yom Echad ever became the First Day is beyond me. It’s ONE day. But the others I was no aware of.

Suggestion: before quoting the Bible check the original source? Translations of a translation of a translation tend to be fairly unreliable.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Winter said:

Odium (as righteous anger as said in one of the letters)

The quote is:

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

Separated from virtues and context isn't really "righteous", but more the opposite, I'd say. 

[Personification he/him]

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Wow. I did not realize the translations were this bad.

There was only ONE act of creation: the very first word Bereishis (Nachmanides). After God creates the Beginning, every other act is separation. The building blocks of everything were created with the word Bereishis, and the rest was separating out those blocks and putting things into the forms as we know them.

Only the first word was Creation from nothing. And these translations are pretty bad. I already knew about the misinterpretation of Bereishis Barah Elokim. And how Yom Echad ever became the First Day is beyond me. It’s ONE day. But the others I was no aware of.

Suggestion: before quoting the Bible check the original source? Translations of a translation of a translation tend to be fairly unreliable.

Sort of (by my understanding. Religion is obviously quite personal). I actually have always read it as some of the stuff (like the water and the void) always having been there, and the first line being more of a thesis or abstract, like "God created the universe, here's how." A Ramban callout is always nice, though, but mostly for reasons relating to a semi-inside joke for me. I also don't think that the "First day" thing is that big of a stretch. It is a pretty common interpretation, and all of the other "xth day" things are actually ordinals in the original Hebrew.

Still, it is true that many English Bibles are translated from Latin which was translated from Greek which was translated from a version of Hebrew that has been dead for millennia and is very different from modern Hebrew (which is technically a conlang). Plus, while I don't know if there are glaring issues with the translation in the post you quoted, I do disagree with the interpretation of the text (both that of the Torah and the Cosmere) presented in it.

On the other hand, your transliteration of Bereshit pains me (yes, I understand that it is the accepted Ashkenazi spelling and pronunciation). The word ends in ת, not ס or ש. And yes I am that pedantic about transliteration. When I found out how my middle name (a transliterated Hebrew word) was spelled, I actually got mad at my parents for their choice. (I got over it).

(welcome to pedantic-cast davar edition (no, not that one))