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If Odium absorbed shards


bridge7

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A few coppermind quotes for context-

"He is responsible for the deaths of at least four Shards -- Devotion, Dominion, Ambition and Honor."

"Many of his splinters, the Unmade, represent giving into the sensations with nothing to rein them in"

I was wondering- how exactly would Odium change if he absorbed some of the shards? Like devotion, or ambition? Besides becoming more powerful, he would be affected by the new shards, but couldn't he manipulate them? Devotion to his cause, ambition to succeed? Or does he just want to stay as pure hatred?

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31 minutes ago, bridge7 said:

Or does he just want to stay as pure hatred?

That ^

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

P.S. Welcome to the Shard! 

Edited by Honorless
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You are correct that taking up their power would change him but there are WoBs that Odium intentionally splinters shards rather than try to absorb their powers because he does not want to change his intent.

It would be interesting to speculate what would happen but it has been made clear that Odium want to stay "pure hatred". Although I think "pure hatred" is too narrow as I think it would be more "pure emotion". For instance I think pain is pretty clearly part of his intent.

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1 hour ago, Awakened Cremling said:

It would be interesting to speculate what would happen but it has been made clear that Odium want to stay "pure hatred". Although I think "pure hatred" is too narrow as I think it would be more "pure emotion". For instance I think pain is pretty clearly part of his intent.

It appears an individual has made my mistake.

Just know it's hatred

And now I am @RShara 

Edited by Frustration
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1 hour ago, Awakened Cremling said:

Although I think "pure hatred" is too narrow as I think it would be more "pure emotion". For instance I think pain is pretty clearly part of his intent

"Frost claims a straightforward definition: that it is God's own divine hatred.Odium himself, however, claims that he's Passion, a Shard of emotions, in particular excessive emotions"- coppermind

This is very debatable, I guess it just depends on who you think is right

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Just now, bridge7 said:

"Frost claims a straightforward definition: that it is God's own divine hatred.Odium himself, however, claims that he's Passion, a Shard of emotions, in particular excessive emotions"- coppermind

This is very debatable, I guess it just depends on who you think is right

Brandon has said that Odium is closer to hatred and Hoid calls himthe Father of hatred.

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On 11/5/2020 at 7:36 AM, bridge7 said:

Besides becoming more powerful, he would be affected by the new shards, but couldn't he manipulate them? Devotion to his cause, ambition to succeed?

It doesn't really work that way, he'd have a second intent every bit as strong as the one he likes dealing with and he couldn't simply override a new one with his existing intent; it would change his personalty regardless of any mental shenanigans he tried.

EDIT: Found an old WoB that's quite explicit about this. Even a small amount of extra Investiture attuned to another Shard would change your personality over time. So yeah, picking up a second Shard would definitely result in a personality that is no longer Rayse/Odium as he currently exists, and he likes who he is.

Quote

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

Also, those kinds of mental tricks probably wouldn't do what you're thinking of anyways, because the intents of the Shards are not inwardly-directed.

Quote

Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

So Odium couldn't just redirect Ambition to mean an ambition to succeed (which also is probably not what that Shard is about) and Devotion is arguably the polar opposite of Odium; Devotion is a synonym for Love or Compassion while Brandon originally had Odium being called Hatred but he changed it because he thought that Odium was cooler. So combining those two Shards would almost certainly produce the same kind of tension that exists with Harmony between the opposing intents of Preservation and Ruin, except that I'm willing to bet Rayse wouldn't deal with it nearly as well. Sazed already had a philosophical stance that was able to accommodate both intents while Rayse being extremely attuned to his Shard and per Hoid "among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met" is probably not going to do so well when he suddenly has to also juggle the cosmic embodiment of love.

Going to the root question, we do have a WoB that if Rayse were to take up other Shards, Ruin would be one of the 'safest' for him.

Edited by Weltall
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6 minutes ago, Weltall said:

It doesn't really work that way, he'd have a second intent every bit as strong as the one he likes dealing with and he couldn't simply override a new one with his existing intent; it would change his personalty regardless of any mental shenanigans he tried.

Also, those kinds of mental tricks probably wouldn't do what you're thinking of anyways, because the intents of the Shards are not inwardly-directed.

So Odium couldn't just redirect Ambition to mean an ambition to succeed (which also is probably not what that Shard is about) and Devotion is arguably the polar opposite of Odium; Devotion is a synonym for Love or Compassion while Brandon originally had Odium being called Hatred but he changed it because he thought that Odium was cooler. So combining those two Shards would almost certainly produce the same kind of tension that exists with Harmony between the opposing intents of Preservation and Ruin, except that I'm willing to bet Rayse wouldn't deal with it nearly as well.

That makes a ton of sense now, and kind of explains a lot. Devotion to others, and ambition to help others succeed? Also, did anyone else look up what odium meant after a few books? Blown away, never realized it meant that for a while.

This might be too much philosophy, and highly off-topic, but how do you think the "selflessness" aspect makes the shards completely different? Like honor is kind of a hypocrite, breaking the avoid others pact, and how cultivation doesn't care how you grow as long as it happens?

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11 minutes ago, bridge7 said:

Also, did anyone else look up what odium meant after a few books? Blown away, never realized it meant that for a while.

I knew that one from, of all places, Castlevania, since the Japanese release of Order of Ecclesia used 'Dominus Odium' as the name of one of its key plot points and I looked it up then, a year or two before WoK came out. Funny, the places you learn things. xD

Quote

This might be too much philosophy, and highly off-topic, but how do you think the "selflessness" aspect makes the shards completely different? Like honor is kind of a hypocrite, breaking the avoid others pact, and how cultivation doesn't care how you grow as long as it happens?

Honor's a case that needs to be taken with some caution because as far as he's concerned, he didn't break any oath at all. Per Brandon, there was a suggestion that the Shards should all separate but it wasn't done in the form of an oath that actually would have bound the sixteen. So you have some of the Shards that think they had a binding oath that almost half of them reneged on (plus Odium, who's using the perception of an oath for his own benefit) while Honor and Cultivation apparently recognized that the suggestion was non-binding so they didn't need to follow it. Whether this makes Tanavast a hypocrite for not following the spirit of the agreement turns on how many of the sixteen think the same way that Edgli does (that there was an agreement) and where you come down on the spirit vs letter of the law question. But in his own mind he's not one.

Cultivation is also kind of tricky because we have two very different claims made about her. Odium claims she cares about change for its own sake (and that sort of mindset could potentially be very dangerous on a long enough timeframe) but Cultivation herself suggests she's got specific goals in mind with her nurturing and her pruning and this is backed up by what we've seen of her and what Brandon has told us. Given that we know Odium isn't being honest with himself about the whole 'Passion' thing and he's definitely not the only Shard that cares, I'm not inclined to take his claim about Cultivation as gospel. But I'd be very worried if she were to take up another Shard like Ambition or Odium...

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18 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Honor's a case that needs to be taken with some caution because as far as he's concerned, he didn't break any oath at all. Per Brandon, there was a suggestion that the Shards should all separate but it wasn't done in the form of an oath that actually would have bound the sixteen. So you have some of the Shards that think they had a binding oath that almost half of them reneged on (plus Odium, who's using the perception of an oath for his own benefit) while Honor and Cultivation apparently recognized that the suggestion was non-binding so they didn't need to follow it. Whether this makes Tanavast a hypocrite for not following the spirit of the agreement turns on how many of the sixteen think the same way that Edgli does (that there was an agreement) and where you come down on the spirit vs letter of the law question. But in his own mind he's not one....

I know there was either a Syl or Stormfather quote about how honor used to care about the spirit of the oath (leaning towards Stormfather, think it was after the vision with the cultivation quote), so to him it was less of a promise you make to do your chores(made to be broken) and more of a "bye I hope I never see you again"?

Didn't realize the cultivation line was a Odium quote, that's like trusting a politician :)

Edited by bridge7
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On 11/5/2020 at 3:40 PM, Weltall said:

I knew that one from, of all places, Castlevania, since the Japanese release of Order of Ecclesia used 'Dominus Odium' as the name of one of its key plot points and I looked it up then, a year or two before WoK came out. Funny, the places you learn things. xD

Honor's a case that needs to be taken with some caution because as far as he's concerned, he didn't break any oath at all. Per Brandon, there was a suggestion that the Shards should all separate but it wasn't done in the form of an oath that actually would have bound the sixteen. So you have some of the Shards that think they had a binding oath that almost half of them reneged on (plus Odium, who's using the perception of an oath for his own benefit) while Honor and Cultivation apparently recognized that the suggestion was non-binding so they didn't need to follow it. Whether this makes Tanavast a hypocrite for not following the spirit of the agreement turns on how many of the sixteen think the same way that Edgli does (that there was an agreement) and where you come down on the spirit vs letter of the law question. But in his own mind he's not one.

Cultivation is also kind of tricky because we have two very different claims made about her. Odium claims she cares about change for its own sake (and that sort of mindset could potentially be very dangerous on a long enough timeframe) but Cultivation herself suggests she's got specific goals in mind with her nurturing and her pruning and this is backed up by what we've seen of her and what Brandon has told us. Given that we know Odium isn't being honest with himself about the whole 'Passion' thing and he's definitely not the only Shard that cares, I'm not inclined to take his claim about Cultivation as gospel. But I'd be very worried if she were to take up another Shard like Ambition or Odium...

Ambition may just be the drive to act. Do Cultivation taking it up could make her be active than passive as a force. It would probably make Odium more dangerous.

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