Zahel - Your theories?

[maxal she/her]

Alright. I have just finished Warbreaker. So far, I have purposely stayed away from discussions on Zahel since I knew he was Vasher. I did not want to get spoiled.

 

Now that I am finally done with the book, I have questions. I guess it probably was discussed at some point, so feel free to link me the thread.

 

Do we know what Vasher is doing on Roshar and what is his purpose there? From Warbreaker, we know he was not a particularly good duelist, nor was he an excellent swordsman. However, in WoR, he is an expert swordsman whom Kal describes as being phenomenal (or something along the lines, I do not have my book close by). So far, is only purpose in Roshar is to teach young boys in general, Adolin in particular. Knowing how good Adolin actually is, we can assumed he was well taught.

 

Any idea why he wants to be on Roshar and why he set himself to be a teacher? I get it he chose to join the ardentia because it allowed him to teach swords, but why? I could think of numerous reasons for him to be on Roshar, but none would fit with his chosen occupation which seems quite static. Do we know how many kids he taught besides Adolin or is it each swordsmaster have only one student at a time? We know he tool Renarin as well, but he was more or less tricked to do so.

 

Also, when did he get so good with the sword? In Warbreaker, he had 300 years to perfect his skill and he did not as he was more of a scholar. No reason to believe he would have gotten better since. Or is it Denth assessment of Vasher's skill unfair?

 

Your thoughts?

[Chaos he/him]

I always thought Vasher was on Roshar because Stormlight is a much easier, and much less costly, fuel to keep him alive than Breath was. I vaguely remember that there was a quote from Brandon to this effect, too. So that at least explains why he is on Roshar. After he consumed so many Breaths, maybe he just got fed up of it.

[hoser he/him]

{baseless speculation}

He dealt with whatever needed dealing with on the Warbreaker planet and he didn't want to rule there.

He came to Roshar for the freely available investiture and lost Nightblood somehow.  He wants/needs to get Nightblood back and is hanging with the priests until he can get a line on Nightblood. 

He got wind of the Odium situation and wants to help out. 

{/baseless speculation}

[king of nowhere]

Well, he was never described as a poor duelist in warbreaker. he was shown to be excellent with a sword many times.

He only was a poor duelist compared to arsteel or denth. who also were 300 years old and practiced duels regularly. and despite being weaker than denth, and despite having suffered a night of torture, he could still hold his own, offering a protracted resistance before being defeated. and we see a bit of how good denth was.

So, he's still an exceptionally good swordsman, even if there are some better than him. It would be like saying adolin is a lousy swordsman because szeth curbstomped him.

 

As for what he's doing on roshar, chaos answered.

 

As for his bigger plans, we don't know them. I think he joined the ardentia because it lets him pursue research, grants him access to information, and let him considerable freedom of movement.

Then, maybe he don't have any great plan at the moment, he's just living by the day until he find something important. But it's highly unlikely he would have turned up to be the instructor of kaladin and adolin just by coincidence. he probably has an inkling of what's happening with the desolation, and his way of dealing with it was to train the next generation of good guys.

Yeah, make me wonder why he didn't do it personally. I'm pretty sure by using stomrlight as breath he could have defeated the listener army by himself. Or why hoid don't get more involved.

[RShara she/her]

Q:  Why is Vasher on Roshar? Is he trying to get back Nightblood?

A:  Kind of a RAFO. I won't go into all his reasons right now but there is one thing that was difficult to get on Nalthis that is much easier to get on Roshar. Going to Roshar solved that problem for him.

 

 

Q:  Is Vasher trying to find Nightblood?

A:  Vasher misses Nightblood and feels responsible for him.

[Terisen he/him]

Q:  Is Vasher trying to find Nightblood?

A:  Vasher misses Nightblood and feels responsible for him.

 

That almost makes Nightblood sound like Vasher's pet.  

 

I do find it a bit curious that Vasher appears to have a non-chalant attitude towards finding Nightblood.  He's been in the service of the Kholins for a while (years, in fact).  Now, I know it's a large area to search (being an entire continent), but you'd think he'd be trying to actively hunt down a sword that generally leaves a wake of dead bodies in its path instead of just hanging around, waiting for information to find him through the ardentia.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Terisen

[maxal she/her]

Well, he was never described as a poor duelist in warbreaker. he was shown to be excellent with a sword many times.

He only was a poor duelist compared to arsteel or denth. who also were 300 years old and practiced duels regularly. and despite being weaker than denth, and despite having suffered a night of torture, he could still hold his own, offering a protracted resistance before being defeated. and we see a bit of how good denth was.

 

Well, Denth described him often as a poor duelist.... I got the impression he was average with a sword, which is why I was surprised to see him as swordsmaster in WoR.

 

Well, he was never described as a poor duelist in warbreaker. he was shown to be excellent with a sword many times.

He only was a poor duelist compared to arsteel or denth. who also were 300 years old and practiced duels regularly. and despite being weaker than denth, and despite having suffered a night of torture, he could still hold his own, offering a protracted resistance before being defeated. and we see a bit of how good denth was.

So, he's still an exceptionally good swordsman, even if there are some better than him. It would be like saying adolin is a lousy swordsman because szeth curbstomped him.

 

As for what he's doing on roshar, chaos answered.

 

As for his bigger plans, we don't know them. I think he joined the ardentia because it lets him pursue research, grants him access to information, and let him considerable freedom of movement.

 

Freedom of movement, that's the problem. He was not so free of movement as he spent years training Adolin to the sword. No doubt he didn't move that often during that time. Ardentia offers multiple opportunities, that is true, but he was after scholarly goals, why waste his time teaching sword fighting to a bunch of kids?

 

 

That almost makes Nightblood sound like Vasher's pet.  

 

I do find it a bit curious that Vasher appears to have a non-chalant attitude towards finding Nightblood.  He's been in the service of the Kholins for a while (years, in fact).  Now, I know it's a large area to search (being an entire continent), but you'd think he'd be trying to actively hunt down a sword that generally leaves a wake of dead bodies in its path instead of just hanging around, waiting for information to find him through the ardentia.

 

Yeah I have thought of that too... How is staying with the Kohlins helping him? From Rshara's post, I get he is able to survive more easily on Stormlight than on Breath, which is a good enough reason for him to be there, although I was hoping he still was after the remaining scholar.

[king of nowhere]

as for the remaining scholar, that will be covered in the second warbreaker book. we have no idea what will happen, or if yesteel will die. we know jewel will go to jesteel asking to restore more sentience on her lifeless (which was made with the body of arsteel), hoping to resurrect him. so, depending on that success, there may be 2 to none of the five scholars still around, plus vasher, by the time of the SA.

[Kobold King he/him]

That almost makes Nightblood sound like Vasher's pet.  

 

I do find it a bit curious that Vasher appears to have a non-chalant attitude towards finding Nightblood.  He's been in the service of the Kholins for a while (years, in fact).  Now, I know it's a large area to search (being an entire continent), but you'd think he'd be trying to actively hunt down a sword that generally leaves a wake of dead bodies in its path instead of just hanging around, waiting for information to find him through the ardentia.

 

Now I have the image of flyers hung up all over Roshar.

 

Missing: Talking Sword

Black. Exudes inky smoke when unsheathed.

Enjoys killing evil.

If found, contact Zahel, Shattered Plains ardentia, Greater Roshar System.

[MrGinger128]

Well, Denth described him often as a poor duelist.... I got the impression he was average with a sword, which is why I was surprised to see him as swordsmaster in WoR.

 

 

A poor duelist compared to someone that's 300 years old, Best duelist in the world compared to 20-50 year olds. Even a bad 300 year old swordsman would beat a good 20 year old, Having literally centuries to practice makes a massive difference, You've seen every possible move 1000 times by this point.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Do we know Vasher's actual age? He was Returned twice wasn't he? He could be any number of years old. Also, he has worldhopped before, which led to his inspiration to create Nightblood.

[Stormgate he/him]

Was he Returned twice? Where did you get that?

[hypatia she/her]

How about the other way round?

Is there a possibility he could use his super-breath on Roshar?

Perhaps Vasher isn't there on his own behalf but because Endowment had sent him?

This would explain, why he isn't relaxing on one of the Reshi Islands or searching for Nightblood - he is waiting for the moment to act on visions of Endowment.

[Stormgate he/him]

I still don't know why Vasher might be double-Returned.

[Yata he/him]

I still don't know why Vasher might be double-Returned.

Nothing in the books made me think that he is double-Returned.

 

Anyway about his skills, Brandon says that Vasher at the time of Warbreaker didn't need to keep practice on swordplay because of Nightblood. After he lost the Sword, ha needed to improve his swordplay and he may invested time to keen his fighting power. Remember that on Roshar he can't Awaken without problem (Ha has only the Breath that himself take from Nalthis and the Awekening are unknown on Roshar).

About his actual "work". I suppose that he want stay near to the Alethi because they will be the more interesting in "fabrial-shardblade/pseudo-shardblade/ecc..." and he choose to became an Ardent to avoid the Vorin's Male-Female limitation.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Anyway about his skills, Brandon says that Vasher at the time of Warbreaker didn't need to keep practice on swordplay because of Nightblood. After he lost the Sword, ha needed to improve his swordplay and he may invested time to keen his fighting power. Remember that on Roshar he can't Awaken without problem (Ha has only the Breath that himself take from Nalthis and the Awekening are unknown on Roshar).

 

I had never read that WoB, but this was the same point I was going to bring up. With a weapon like Nightblood he never really had a reason to practice swordplay. It's been awhile since I read Warbreaker but if I recall correctly he seldom relied on Nightblood and instead used his talents with Awakening to subdue his enemies. Plus with him coming to Roshar we have no real idea yet how his abilities would interact with the world, and given the stigma against Radiants it's likely he would have avoided using it anyway in order to prevent raising any unwanted questions, so ultimately it makes perfect sense that he had to rely on a more traditional way of fighting. Though that makes me wonder what his eye color is; can't seem to remember specifically, but I want to say brown? Maybe that was a part of the reason he became an Ardent, since it's extremely taboo for darkeyes to wield a sword otherwise, and he thought it better to use a familiar instrument of war rather than learn a new one (the spear). Lastly, the reason why he might be more lax about his pursuit of Nightblood is because there have been no signs of him being used anywhere. What I mean is that when someone is killed by Nightblood the wounds are very obvious and compared to deaths in the Stormlight Archive definitely unheard of. News would likely reach his ears if evidence of his use were ever discovered, especially with him being in the Ardentia as that is - as a Darkeyes - the easiest profession to get into that would put him in a position among people with influence that would more likely hear these things. Without a lead, wandering across Roshar would probably be a more counter productive alternative to becoming an Ardent.

 

That's my two cents.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Adavantos

[FormlessFox he/him]

Vasher was described as intuitively gifted at fighting. Hes never deacribed as an allstar swprdsmen but he always makes the right move to win. Kind of like a crafty vet vs a prodigy who only knows bookforms. Hence how he is able to beat "better duelists". When training Kaladin it is not his strength or speed but his descisions that make him deadly.

Also Zahel mentions and is cut off before completing a thought about Dalinar. He says " he is the most powerful human on the Planet" so hes here to influnce events through kholins most likely

[Oversleep]

I think I have seen a WoB that Vasher is very capable fighter, but not as good as for example Denth. His skills may have rusted during the time when his strategy was to throw Nightblood at people, but when he lost... him/it(?), he brushed up his skills again. So he is a extraordinary swordman.

[Patrick Star]

Alright. I have just finished Warbreaker. So far, I have purposely stayed away from discussions on Zahel since I knew he was Vasher. I did not want to get spoiled.

 

Now that I am finally done with the book, I have questions. I guess it probably was discussed at some point, so feel free to link me the thread.

 

Do we know what Vasher is doing on Roshar and what is his purpose there? From Warbreaker, we know he was not a particularly good duelist, nor was he an excellent swordsman. However, in WoR, he is an expert swordsman whom Kal describes as being phenomenal (or something along the lines, I do not have my book close by). So far, is only purpose in Roshar is to teach young boys in general, Adolin in particular. Knowing how good Adolin actually is, we can assumed he was well taught.

 

Any idea why he wants to be on Roshar and why he set himself to be a teacher? I get it he chose to join the ardentia because it allowed him to teach swords, but why? I could think of numerous reasons for him to be on Roshar, but none would fit with his chosen occupation which seems quite static. Do we know how many kids he taught besides Adolin or is it each swordsmaster have only one student at a time? We know he tool Renarin as well, but he was more or less tricked to do so.

 

Also, when did he get so good with the sword? In Warbreaker, he had 300 years to perfect his skill and he did not as he was more of a scholar. No reason to believe he would have gotten better since. Or is it Denth assessment of Vasher's skill unfair?

 

Your thoughts?

 

1) The main reason is that he can live off of the stormlight that the highstorms provide.  Easier (and more ethical) than taking peoples' breaths.

 

2) Probably to get easy access to Stormlight.  And because it's a living.

 

3) He's actually a very good duelist.  Not the best (Denth was better), but he's still a great fighter.  In Warbreaker, he hadn't needed to duel in a while because of Nightblood.  There's a WoB about this somewhere.

[maxal she/her]

1) The main reason is that he can live off of the stormlight that the highstorms provide.  Easier (and more ethical) than taking peoples' breaths.

 

2) Probably to get easy access to Stormlight.  And because it's a living.

 

3) He's actually a very good duelist.  Not the best (Denth was better), but he's still a great fighter.  In Warbreaker, he hadn't needed to duel in a while because of Nightblood.  There's a WoB about this somewhere.

 

This was an old post! 

 

 

I knew at the time Roshar gave Zahel an easy access to the investiture he needs to survive, but I wondered at the time why he chose to pose as a swordsmaster to more specifically Adolin.

 

I had to wonder. 

 

He could have chosen to be an Ardent without being a sowrdsmaster. He could have chosen to attach himself to another house than the Kohlins. He could have chosen to train any other child than Adolin. 

 

He could have chosen many other things than those he chose to engage into with the same result, so I wondered, why a swordsmaster, why the Kohlins and why Adolin.

 

Albeit, this is an old post. I have since accepted there are no answers.

[Patrick Star]

This was an old post! 

 

Whoops, sorry, didn't see that

[King's Twit he/him]

This was an old post!

I knew at the time Roshar gave Zahel an easy access to the investiture he needs to survive, but I wondered at the time why he chose to pose as a swordsmaster to more specifically Adolin.

I had to wonder.

He could have chosen to be an Ardent without being a sowrdsmaster. He could have chosen to attach himself to another house than the Kohlins. He could have chosen to train any other child than Adolin.

He could have chosen many other things than those he chose to engage into with the same result, so I wondered, why a swordsmaster, why the Kohlins and why Adolin.

Albeit, this is an old post. I have since accepted there are no answers.

With a calculating man like Vasher, it's tempting to say that he deliberately chose to end up in the position and location he did on Roshar, but we can't know for certain that it wasn't just luck or providence that brought him to Adolin and the gang, in the same way that there's no real reason behind Kaladin ending up on the shattered plains and in the perfect position to help Dalinar when he did(that I know of). Sometimes you have to chalk things up to divine will or Brandon's will.

As for the choice to be a sword trainer, it seems like a natural choice, especially if it pays well (I don't remember if it does or not). What other position would give him access to as much stormlight, comfort, and agency? He could have feigned being a lighteyes, but I don't know if he can change his appearance without stopping suppressing his Divine Breath.

[Slaybalj]

With a calculating man like Vasher, it's tempting to say that he deliberately chose to end up in the position and location he did on Roshar, but we can't know for certain that it wasn't just luck or providence that brought him to Adolin and the gang, in the same way that there's no real reason behind Kaladin ending up on the shattered plains and in the perfect position to help Dalinar when he did(that I know of). Sometimes you have to chalk things up to divine will or Brandon's will.

Well, in kaladins case, he probably ended up in the shattered plains because his history as troublemaker and instigator meant no more reputable slaver would have anything to do with him and because Tvlakv knows sadeas will buy ANY slave. Edited December 26, 2015 by Slaybalj

[King's Twit he/him]

Well, in kaladins case, he probably ended up in the shattered plains because his history as troublemaker and instigator meant no more reputable slaver would have anything to do with him and because Tvlakv knows sadeas will buy ANY slave.

Right, i didn't mean to imply that he ended up there for no reason, I just meant that the reason had little to nothing to do with his "purpose" there, what happened was not intended by any of the major players in the plot.