RoW Chapter 16 Discussion

[Nathrangking he/him]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

This is a good point...

If you look only at the description that the difference between a gem with Voidlight (that eventually leaks it away) and this "perfect gem" that contains something similar to, but deeper and more vibrant than Voidlight, that has a warping feeling to it, it seems obvious that it's an Unmade because of Gavilar referring to it s as a "god" and that we know Ba-Ado-Mishram was trapped in this way to end the False Desolation.

But they have, or had, a trapped Unmade in a perfect gem already. If it also looked and felt like that, they'd know.

So either this is not an Unmade in Gavilar's Perfect Gem... Or, each Unmade feels different, and this one (if holding B-A-M) feels "warping" because of all the Parsh Connection somehow forced into it as well?

(The Parsh Connection, that's a good name for a band)

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

First Album : Rhythm Of War

Third album Shard Killer

 

[Infinity Sliver]

4 minutes ago, Soby said:

Anyone else wondering how Cusicesh and the sphere imprisoning the Thrill could end up intertwining? 
 

Also, quick question just out of curiosity: could nightblood be drained of breaths by a heightened Awakener like Zahel or Azure? Is it possible for a level IV biochromatic entity?

no,i dont think so because the breath is still keyed to the person that did the awakening? i think?

[I Am A Fish he/him]

I had a thought!

Sanderson has said that Cusicesh is related to the sibling, could the sibling have been splintered, with it's main body still in the tower, but a splinter (Cusicesh) going elsewhere?

Edited October 20, 2020 by I Am A Fish
Grammare

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

As the poet laureate of Alethkar, I will give the true star of the chapter its well-deserved tribute:

It's back, it's black, it's totally whack

At long last it is here

It's smooth and round, it's just been found

Let's... welcome... the blaaaaaack sphere

Edited October 21, 2020 by Necessary Eagle

[Soby]

5 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

no,i dont think so because the breath is still keyed to the person that did the awakening? i think?

I think you’re right...I don’t think even Shashara could retrieve its breaths but I’m having a hard time recalling this info.

Apart from simply tying the Awakener/Radiant systems together in SLa, I’m just thinking about the role Nightblood has on Roshar...

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, Soby said:

Also, quick question just out of curiosity: could nightblood be drained of breaths by a heightened Awakener like Zahel or Azure? Is it possible for a level IV biochromatic entity?

In theory you should be able to drain NB.  In practice that ain't happening.

[Awakened Cremling he/him]

Sorry if this was already mentioned, haven't read all the discussion yet, but I think Gav is small "for his age" because of the strange time dilation that was going on in the palace. Like the freed "loyalists" who were shocked when they found out how much time had passed.

[Shakakakakaka]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

In theory you should be able to drain NB.  In practice that ain't happening.

In Soviet Russia, Nightblood drains you

 

3 minutes ago, Awakened Cremling said:

Sorry if this was already mentioned, haven't read all the discussion yet, but I think Gav is small "for his age" because of the strange time dilation that was going on in the palace. Like the freed "loyalists" who were shocked when they found out how much time had passed.

There really was some weirdness going on in that palace that never got fully explained. Well, time to re-read it again

Edited October 20, 2020 by Shakakakakaka

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Shakakakakaka said:

In Soviet Russia, Nightblood drains you

And everywhere else really.

5 minutes ago, Awakened Cremling said:

Sorry if this was already mentioned, haven't read all the discussion yet, but I think Gav is small "for his age" because of the strange time dilation that was going on in the palace. Like the freed "loyalists" who were shocked when they found out how much time had passed.

Ahh.  I had not considered that.  So maybe he is over a year younger then they think he is.  I wondered if it could be malnutrition or just genetic.

[Shakakakakaka]

10 minutes ago, Awakened Cremling said:

Sorry if this was already mentioned, haven't read all the discussion yet, but I think Gav is small "for his age" because of the strange time dilation that was going on in the palace. Like the freed "loyalists" who were shocked when they found out how much time had passed.

After a quick re-read of that section, I don't think that's it. The loyalists thought it had been a short period of time because of the fact they'd only been fed 3 times. However, Adolin notes to himself that they have beards that seem to indicate weeks trapped. They were still aging at the seeming normal length, but their own perception of it was distorted

[Awakened Cremling he/him]

1 minute ago, Shakakakakaka said:

After a quick re-read of that section, I don't think that's it. The loyalists thought it had been a short period of time because of the fact they'd only been fed 3 times. However, Adolin notes to himself that they have beards that seem to indicate weeks trapped. They were still aging at the seeming normal length, but their own perception of it was distorted

I had forgotten about the beards. It seems time perception was scewed but not physical (beard), but how does that make sense that they survived for months only eating 3 times? I still think something strange was going on with time there but I don't think we have enough information yet to determine how or why or what implications that has.

[Infinity Sliver]

3 minutes ago, Shakakakakaka said:

After a quick re-read of that section, I don't think that's it. The loyalists thought it had been a short period of time because of the fact they'd only been fed 3 times. However, Adolin notes to himself that they have beards that seem to indicate weeks trapped. They were still aging at the seeming normal length, but their own perception of it was distorted

I guess the thing we have to know is how long they lost communication with Kholinar and find details that supports or deny the theory

[Karger he/him]

5 minutes ago, Shakakakakaka said:

After a quick re-read of that section, I don't think that's it. The loyalists thought it had been a short period of time because of the fact they'd only been fed 3 times. However, Adolin notes to himself that they have beards that seem to indicate weeks trapped. They were still aging at the seeming normal length, but their own perception of it was distorted

I believe it is confirmed that time dilation was happening.  L and A from the OB reread think of it as a given and they can talk to Brandon directly.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Karger

[Rainier]

19 minutes ago, Awakened Cremling said:

Sorry if this was already mentioned, haven't read all the discussion yet, but I think Gav is small "for his age" because of the strange time dilation that was going on in the palace. Like the freed "loyalists" who were shocked when they found out how much time had passed.

I like this detail, but we've got precious little to explain why or how such dilation could have occurred. I think my initial reading of that part was the typical one, that they lost track of time in the Revel, not that they spent less time than the rest of the world. However, time dilation is prevalent throughout the Cosmere, and anything you can do with one magic you could do with another.

[I Am A Fish he/him]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

I wondered if it could be malnutrition or just genetic.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say that Gavinor's size is probably not genetic. From what we've seen of Dalinar, and Gavilar they're both described as being rather large, and while it is a possibility that such genes exist in Navani's, or Ausedan's family line, family health was often considered before political marriages making it unlikely

 

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I like this detail, but we've got precious little to explain why or how such dilation could have occurred. I think my initial reading of that part was the typical one, that they lost track of time in the Revel, not that they spent less time than the rest of the world. However, time dilation is prevalent throughout the Cosmere, and anything you can do with one magic you could do with another.

Was it the Revel that was affecting the guards though?

[Awakened Cremling he/him]

6 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Was it the Revel that was affecting the guards though?

I understood is as the affects of the Revel were mostly contained to the Oathgate platform, or at the least were much more concentrated as one got closer to the Heart. There did appear to be time dilation affects in both though. There was partially/mostly rotten food in the revel and clothing of revelers toward the heart showed quite a bit of wear but that would seem to be the affect of days or weeks of wear and rot not months.

Definitely more to learn regarding what was going on with time near the palace during that period.

[Georion]

1 hour ago, Infinitysliver said:

Hold on,why do we think the gem Navani was inspecting contains an Unmade? They had access to the Kings Drop after it captures Nergaoul and she doesnt reference it when thinking about this new gem,nothing about similarities and all

Agreed, I think the collective wisdom of this thread might have collectively jumped the gun on this one. They know about perfect gems and capturing Unmade, yet it doesnt even cross Navani's mind, so I think that s a clear indication it must be something else. Plus if I recall correctly Gavillar had multiple such gems, at the very least two, since he gave one to Eshonai, right? We know of multiple active unmades, so it doesnt make sense that many of them sit in Gavillar s pocket

[Lightspine]

20 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

24 minutes ago, Shakakakakaka said:

After a quick re-read of that section, I don't think that's it. The loyalists thought it had been a short period of time because of the fact they'd only been fed 3 times. However, Adolin notes to himself that they have beards that seem to indicate weeks trapped. They were still aging at the seeming normal length, but their own perception of it was distorted

 

I believe this WoB might explain some of it:

Quote

Bugsy6912

Does Investiture warp spacetime like objects with mass/energy do in our world?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes--but the warping is not on the Physical Realm.

General Signed Books 2017 (Oct. 22, 2017)

The time dilation might just be from the fact that there are 3 Unmade (Ahsertmarn, Sja-anat, and Yelig-nar) residing in the Kholinar palace. That's a truckload of investure if I've ever seen it. It's possible that only Ashertmarn is actually dilating time though, since their massive form is what the group see in Shadesmar.

Anyway, Sanderson seems to be saying that the investure could cause time dilation in either the Spiritual or Cognitive Realms rather than the Physical. Cognitive Realm time dilation would completely explain why the occupants of the palace experienced less time mentally. But I don't know about the weird clash between the physical aging and the lack of food. We've seen in other cases such as (Spoilers for TFE)

Spoiler

Rashek's immediate aging when he's deprived of his metalminds

that your spiritweb "knows" your true age. Personally, I think the time dilation must be exclusively in the Cognitive because the Spiritual Realm is already kind of devoid of time so time dilation there... doesn't make sense? Therefore, maybe the aging is from spiritual aging? But then what about Gavinor?

Uh, I thought the WoB might help clear things up but nevermind, everything still seems messy to me.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Lightspine
typos

[+robardin he/him]

31 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Yes, I think all the evidence points toward this being an unmade, but I find it strange that someone as smart as Navani wouldn't have thought of that, particularly since she directly refers to the Kings Drop being...well...dropped, in the ocean during the same mental thought session. Why would she have handed it off to a random ardent? Seems very very reckless. But also a very useful plot device for someone t make a mistake like that. 

Here’s what Kaladin and Navani see and feel with the trapped Nergaoul after Thaylen Fields:

Kaladin POV:

Quote

Dalinar Kholin knelt not far away, clutching a large ruby that glowed with the same strange phantom light as the Fused.

Navani POV:

Quote

...a large ruby. It glowed with a bizarre light, deep and dark. Somehow, it seemed to be trying to pull the light around it in.

“I want you to keep this safe for me,” Dalinar said. “Study it. Find out why this gemstone specifically was capable of holding one of the Unmade. Don’t break it though. We dare not let it out again.”

She bit her lip. “Dalinar, I’ve seen something like this before. Much smaller, like a sphere.” She looked up at him. “Gavilar made it.”

This was before Szeth retrieved the one that Gavilar gave him in especial.

Neither noticed a “warping” feeling from the King’s Drop containing Nergaoul, which also involved a very large ruby, much bigger than this one from Gavilar.

Since Gavilar referred to the “gods” of the Parshendi, what if this one holds a Very Special Fused?

 

[Awakened Cremling he/him]

2 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

The time dilation might just be from the fact that there are 3 Unmade (Ahsertmarn, Sja-anat, and Yelig-nar) residing in the Kholinar palace. That's a truckload of investure if I've ever seen it. It's possible that only Ashertmarn is actually dilating time though, since their massive form is what the group see in Shadesmar.

My instinct is that your are correct in that we are seeing the effect of lots of investiture rather than an aspect of any particular Unmade but some physical aspects being affected but not all does seem strange. I think we are on the right track but don't have enough information yet.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

Quote

Today, the Shin man sat on the floor of his stone cell, eyes closed, wearing white clothing by his own request. 

Why does he still want to wear white?

[Shakakakakaka]

28 minutes ago, Karger said:

I believe it is confirmed that time dilation was happening.  L and A from the OB reread think of it as a given and they can talk to Brandon directly.

I just went back and read the section of the reread. They call it time dilation, and they call it weird. But that's all they addressed on the subject. 

 

10 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

I believe this WoB might explain some of it:

The time dilation might just be from the fact that there are 3 Unmade (Ahsertmarn, Sja-anat, and Yelig-nar) residing in the Kholinar palace. That's a truckload of investure if I've ever seen it. It's possible that only Ashertmarn is actually dilating time though, since their massive form is what the group see in Shadesmar.

Anyway, somehow Brando Sando seems to be saying that the investure could cause time dilation in either the Spiritual or Cognitive Realms rather than the Physical. Cognitive Realm time dilation would completely explain why the occupants of the palace experienced less time mentally. But I don't know about the weird clash between the physical aging and the lack of food. We've seen in other cases such as (Spoilers for TFE)

  Hide contents

Rashek's immediate aging when he's deprived of his metalminds

that your spiritweb "knows" your true age. Personally, I think the time dilation must be exclusively in the Cognitive because the Spiritual Realm is already kind of devoid of time so time dilation there... doesn't make sense? Therefore, maybe the aging is from spiritual aging? But then what about Gavinor?

Uh, I thought the WoB might help clear things up but nevermind, everything still seems messy to me.

That does help. Tremendously. 

There are some odd references throughout OB and maybe others to time having no meaning. All in the presence of the Unmade. Shallan at the revel. Dalinar marching back from being ambushed. Cognitive dilation makes more sense than the other options

Edited October 20, 2020 by Shakakakakaka

[Infinity Sliver]

Bugsy6912

Does Investiture warp spacetime like objects with mass/energy do in our world?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes--but the warping is not on the Physical Realm.

General Signed Books 2017 (Oct. 22, 2017)

 

ok,referring to this,how much investiture is required to cause such a warping though. Cause Nightblood is continously referred to as the most heavily invested object in the cosmere and thre have been records of time dilation near it. The only things more invested are Shards,although i guess "object" could refer to non living things?

[Rainier]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

Since Gavilar referred to the “gods” of the Parshendi, what if this one holds a Very Special Fused?

If it's not one of the Unmade, it's almost certainly one of the Fused. We've even had them worry over exactly this fear: being trapped forever in a gem.

What I'm interested in is the provenance of this gem. It couldn't have been harvested from a gemheart, you say? Does that mean artificial creation of gemstones? Mraize might be very interested in that.