Why no guns?

[Koloss17]

5 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Guns aren't fun. They only helped popularize several movie genres. 

 

Building on that idea, guns in warfare are no fun. In medieval warfare, you were constantly figuring out new war tactics and inventing new weaponry to solve the issues in war. As soon as guns were invented, the problem was no longer “how do I deal with horses” or “how do I deal with archers” or “how do I deal with siege weaponry.” Those problems were easily solved. Just use a musket (after they got good enough to do that). The problem was now “how do I deal with a musket?” and “how do I harness the power of a musket?” And the solution to that was equally easy. Just use muskets against the muskets! 
 

warfare became less and less fun from there. You just need to optimize the speed at which you can mow down enemies and kill the other gun wielders before they kill you. Shotguns, Gatling guns, and eventually modern weaponry was invented. It made battle a lot more boring. You weren’t figuring out what you need to do with your army to beat the other army’s wide and diverse weaponry and battle tactics, you just need to optimize bullet fire rate, velocity, accuracy, and range. It’s no fun! I mean, trench warfare was sooo boring! Warfare was no longer an art, it was just a simple question with a simple answer, with the achieving that answer being the difficulty. 
 

that is probably why there are less guns. Eventually, there will have to be, but gun-based warfare if a lot less amusing to read than sword-based warfare. That’s all there really be to it.

[Frustration]

"There is no instance of a book benefiting from gun warfare." - @Koloss17 - The Art of War.

[Aspiring Writer]

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Building on that idea, guns in warfare are no fun. In medieval warfare, you were constantly figuring out new war tactics and inventing new weaponry to solve the issues in war. As soon as guns were invented, the problem was no longer “how do I deal with horses” or “how do I deal with archers” or “how do I deal with siege weaponry.” Those problems were easily solved. Just use a musket (after they got good enough to do that). The problem was now “how do I deal with a musket?” and “how do I harness the power of a musket?” And the solution to that was equally easy. Just use muskets against the muskets! 
 

warfare became less and less fun from there. You just need to optimize the speed at which you can mow down enemies and kill the other gun wielders before they kill you. Shotguns, Gatling guns, and eventually modern weaponry was invented. It made battle a lot more boring. You weren’t figuring out what you need to do with your army to beat the other army’s wide and diverse weaponry and battle tactics, you just need to optimize bullet fire rate, velocity, accuracy, and range. It’s no fun! I mean, trench warfare was sooo boring! Warfare was no longer an art, it was just a simple question with a simple answer, with the achieving that answer being the difficulty. 
 

that is probably why there are less guns. Eventually, there will have to be, but gun-based warfare if a lot less amusing to read than sword-based warfare. That’s all there really be to it.

First off, there are two aspects of warfare; one is the battle and the other is the war as a whole, like supply lines, tactics, the broader parts, and a good example of a really interesting war with guns is the American Civil War, actually. There were lots of innovations at the time that are really fascinating, and while I admit that gun warfare can be boring, one, the examples you mentioned are seen as strategically stupid and are examples of people with better technology not knowing how to use them properly yet, i.e. submachine guns and the trenches, and two, superpowers can make it interesting again. In fact, I am doing something of that sort in my books. Guns can be interesting in war, it's just easier to do the more general aspects of warfare than the battle part when it comes to doing anything interesting.

[Koloss17]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

First off, there are two aspects of warfare; one is the battle and the other is the war as a whole, like supply lines, tactics, the broader parts, and a good example of a really interesting war with guns is the American Civil War, actually. There were lots of innovations at the time that are really fascinating, and while I admit that gun warfare can be boring, one, the examples you mentioned are seen as strategically stupid and are examples of people with better technology not knowing how to use them properly yet, i.e. submachine guns and the trenches, and two, superpowers can make it interesting again. In fact, I am doing something of that sort in my books. Guns can be interesting in war, it's just easier to do the more general aspects of warfare than the battle part when it comes to doing anything interesting.

You make fair points. I will say that my argument is biased, given that I storming love medieval warfare and weaponry.

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Koloss17 said:

You make fair points. I will say that my argument is biased, given that I storming love medieval warfare and weaponry.

Medieval warfare is a gem, and I can see why most writers prefer using that when compared to other eras. However, my history teacher did end up making me love even the more modern eras of gun warfare, so I ended up just liking all of them.

[Daggon Forescout]

Something which I think people have danced around but not outright said is that gunpowder technology advanced very quickly on Scadrial. It took us about 1,000 years from the invention of gunpowder until we reached the level of development shown in Era 2, and that was 1,000 years of constant warfare and strong incentive to innovate.

Meanwhile, the inhabitants of Scadrial emerged onto an open field with no buildings, no farms, certainly no industrial base, and 300 years later they have Gatling guns? And it's not like they had any incentive to develop gunpowder technology. From the sounds of it they didn't face any serious threats, and they already had allomancy for anything that should arise. Harmony himself complains that humans haven't progressed fast enough technologically because their lives are too easy.

We know that over the course of Era 1, all worldhopping to Scadrial ceased, but that somehow worldhoppers started showing up again by Era 2. Is it possible that one of these people accidentally showed off a gun, and that somehow kickstarted the firearms industry? Or did Harmony mention gunpowder in the book he left for Spook?

[Koloss17]

51 minutes ago, Daggon Forescout said:

Something which I think people have danced around but not outright said is that gunpowder technology advanced very quickly on Scadrial. It took us about 1,000 years from the invention of gunpowder until we reached the level of development shown in Era 2, and that was 1,000 years of constant warfare and strong incentive to innovate.

Meanwhile, the inhabitants of Scadrial emerged onto an open field with no buildings, no farms, certainly no industrial base, and 300 years later they have Gatling guns? And it's not like they had any incentive to develop gunpowder technology. From the sounds of it they didn't face any serious threats, and they already had allomancy for anything that should arise. Harmony himself complains that humans haven't progressed fast enough technologically because their lives are too easy.

We know that over the course of Era 1, all worldhopping to Scadrial ceased, but that somehow worldhoppers started showing up again by Era 2. Is it possible that one of these people accidentally showed off a gun, and that somehow kickstarted the firearms industry? Or did Harmony mention gunpowder in the book he left for Spook?

Wait this is actually very useful to know. I think some worldhopper did some stuff. Likely taldain-based ones. Which further helps the theory that trell is autonomy!

[Scarletfox]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:57 PM, Aspiring Writer said:

If by questionable you mean confirmed, then yeah questionable.

Arthur Dent (paraphrased)

Is [Mraize] a worldhopper?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, he's been to a few planets, highly supervised by his babsk.

Why is it that I couldn't get past that there's someone out there who's actually named Arthur Dent?

[Daggon Forescout]

28 minutes ago, Scarletfox said:

Why is it that I couldn't get past that there's someone out there who's actually named Arthur Dent?

lol. That didn't even register with me the first time I read that, but that's exactly the kind of coincidence you would expect to happen in the Hitchhiker's Guide. The fact that he's asking about worldhoppers makes it all the better

[Fezzik]

15 hours ago, Scarletfox said:

Why is it that I couldn't get past that there's someone out there who's actually named Arthur Dent?

It was somebody's forum name. If you track down the WoB, that user is now going by @Dalinar42

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 11/9/2020 at 7:47 PM, Scarletfox said:

Why is it that I couldn't get past that there's someone out there who's actually named Arthur Dent?

There are people out there named Tom Riddle...

 

On 11/9/2020 at 1:04 PM, Daggon Forescout said:

Something which I think people have danced around but not outright said is that gunpowder technology advanced very quickly on Scadrial. It took us about 1,000 years from the invention of gunpowder until we reached the level of development shown in Era 2, and that was 1,000 years of constant warfare and strong incentive to innovate.

Meanwhile, the inhabitants of Scadrial emerged onto an open field with no buildings, no farms, certainly no industrial base, and 300 years later they have Gatling guns? And it's not like they had any incentive to develop gunpowder technology. From the sounds of it they didn't face any serious threats, and they already had allomancy for anything that should arise. Harmony himself complains that humans haven't progressed fast enough technologically because their lives are too easy.

We know that over the course of Era 1, all worldhopping to Scadrial ceased, but that somehow worldhoppers started showing up again by Era 2. Is it possible that one of these people accidentally showed off a gun, and that somehow kickstarted the firearms industry? Or did Harmony mention gunpowder in the book he left for Spook?

Yes, Harmony gave them that technology. They haven’t actually progressed much beyond what he gave them, at least according to what Saze tells Wax.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Chinkoln]

I think that guns aren’t popularized because they stand out, and are useless. In a world with swords that Sever the soul, or the ability to heal from any wound, or teleportation, or fly, or changing objects to other materials, or jumping between realms, or bending stone with your mind, or creating duplicate images or yourself, or creating an image of a wall, and there are shapeshifters, and dragons, and Gods, guns seem a little... useless.

[Koloss17]

1 hour ago, Chinkoln said:

I think that guns aren’t popularized because they stand out, and are useless. In a world with swords that Sever the soul, or the ability to heal from any wound, or teleportation, or fly, or changing objects to other materials, or jumping between realms, or bending stone with your mind, or creating duplicate images or yourself, or creating an image of a wall, and there are shapeshifters, and dragons, and Gods, guns seem a little... useless.

So the shardblades and shardblades mean that Roshar will likely stay medieval, BUT guns allow you to break a shardblade pretty easily. And guns are pretty useful in Scadrial and taldain. They would probably be useful in the forests of hell, given that silver bullets would be great against shades. So they are useful, but there are other matters to deal with within the magic systems, such as fabrial tech and twinborn experiments, and literally just surviving the shades.

[Daggon Forescout]

1 hour ago, Chinkoln said:

I think that guns aren’t popularized because they stand out, and are useless. In a world with swords that Sever the soul, or the ability to heal from any wound, or teleportation, or fly, or changing objects to other materials, or jumping between realms, or bending stone with your mind, or creating duplicate images or yourself, or creating an image of a wall, and there are shapeshifters, and dragons, and Gods, guns seem a little... useless.

I think you're forgetting just how rare these abilities are. Sure, swords that sever the soul are cool, but there are maybe 100 of these swords scattered across an entire continent. Sure a radiant may have no need for a gun, but what of the hundreds of thousands of foot soldiers still fighting with spear and shield? If you pay attention to the broadstreets in Wax and Wayne, you see ads for guns that tout the gun's ability to give anyone the power of a coinshot. A tempting proposition for the 99% of the population that isn't.

It's fair to  say that the political and intellectual elite on most of these worlds disproportionally benefits from the magic systems, so there may be slightly less drive to start researching alternative weapons, but to call guns useless is simply short sighted.

Spoiler

Do you really think Straff Venture would have turned down equipping his thousands of troops with guns, just because he happens to have a dozen or so coinshots?