RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[ftl]

4 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

How so? The opposite is true. Someone who is willing to sacrifice literally everything, his movement, his luxury, sex, food, any pleasures if someone who is supreme selfless. 

Alternatively, you get someone who values “power over others” over those things, which selects for psychopaths.

[StormingTexan he/him]

5 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

There is a thread about it but I can repeat my objection here as well: What makes Moash more qualified as Odium's champion than for example Nale or a very skilled fused? 

Moash basically learned how to fight 2 years ago and didn't have much practical experience. Compared to Dalinar or even Adolin / Amaram he is clearly inferior? And I cannot believe that the other side has noone who is more skilled than Moash, even if Nale is too... unreliable.  

Well mainly because I think it will be Kaladin that ends up fighting Odiums's champion and can Kaladin kill Moash? I do not mean physically I mean mentally. Seems like a pretty dang good reason to use Moash as his champion. 

 

 

[Schneeente]

2 minutes ago, ftl said:

Alternatively, you get someone who values “power over others” over those things, which selects for psychopaths.

Okay, you don't eliminate every single bad trait a ruler can have with it, so what? You still get rid of most of the problematic ones.. it's still a clear improvement to "the strongest" may reign. 

 

12 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Well mainly because I think it will be Kaladin that ends up fighting Odiums's champion and can Kaladin kill Moash? I do not mean physically I mean mentally. Seems like a pretty dang good reason to use Moash as his champion. 

I am not so sure who Odium's champion will be. And it would be quite the gamble for Odium to pick an inferior contestant on the (small?) chance that he has to fight against Kaladin. Furthermore... who knows what oaths Kaladin will swear until then, he might not have a problem with killing Moash at that point ~

[StormingTexan he/him]

Just now, Schneeente said:

Okay, you don't eliminate every single bad trait a ruler can have with it, so what? You still get rid of most of the problematic ones.. it's still a clear improvement to "the strongest" may reign. 

 

I am not so sure who Odium's champion will be. And it would be quite the gamble for Odium to pick an inferior contestant on the (small?) chance that he has to fight against Kaladin. Furthermore... who knows what oaths Kaladin will swear until then, he might not have a problem with killing Moash at that point ~

Not sure why you would consider Kaladin fighting Odium's champion as a "small chance". The only other possibility I can think of is Dalinar but I think he knows Kaladin is the best they have and can actually use a sharblade which seems like an important thing in a fight for humanity. Plus Odium has future sight. He knows what will happen not much of a gamble when you know who your champion will fight. 

[+robardin he/him]

16 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Well mainly because I think it will be Kaladin that ends up fighting Odiums's champion and can Kaladin kill Moash? I do not mean physically I mean mentally. Seems like a pretty dang good reason to use Moash as his champion. 

Really? Has Dalinar named "his" champion yet, or has he assumed it is himself personally?

"You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight."

Those were the glowing words in front of Dum-dum Taravangian in his vision of the Diagram that he read out loud, when Odium pulled it up to examine it.

(It also had a vision of words that had faded from golden to black, rooted in the name of Renarin Kholin... Cultivation... What have you done?)

And if Dalinar won't even let Kaladin fight ordinary combat missions any more due to battle fatigue, why would he name him his Ultimate Champion at this point?

[StormingTexan he/him]

17 minutes ago, robardin said:

Really? Has Dalinar named "his" champion yet, or has he assumed it is himself personally?

"You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight."

Those were the glowing words in front of Dum-dum Taravangian in his vision of the Diagram that he read out loud, when Odium pulled it up to examine it.

(It also had a vision of words that had faded from golden to black, rooted in the name of Renarin Kholin... Cultivation... What have you done?)

And if Dalinar won't even let Kaladin fight ordinary combat missions any more due to battle fatigue, why would he name him his Ultimate Champion at this point?

You did not highlight "I think". That was not a statement on my part that is simply what I think will happen and the entire purpose Kaladin has been built up so much over these three books. Sure it is possible Dalinar will roll up his sleeves and take on Odium's champion with a fresh copy of WoK under his arm but I just do not see it going that way. I think he will choose a champion for their side for the battle of champions. Like I said Moash is a pretty strategic choice for Odium in a fight against Kaladin. Odium is grooming Moash. He gave him an Honorblade. If it is not a fight against Kaladin I agree I am sure there are plenty of better options. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by StormingTexan

[Guest Parallax]

Nightblood was conspicuously absent from the discussion among the fused or maybe they haven't figured out what it does. 

[+robardin he/him]

16 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Nightblood was conspicuously absent from the discussion among the fused or maybe they haven't figured out what it does. 

Nightblood is conspicuously absent from the narrative, period... We had a WoB that Szeth starts SA4 "in prison, by Dalinar's command", but we haven't seen that depicted yet, and we don't even know if that means he is still bearing Nightblood or not. I mean, given his Skybreaker oath, if Dalinar said he should go to prison while surrendering his strange black Blade to Navani for study, wouldn't he do it? 

Edited October 6, 2020 by robardin

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Schneeente said:

My guess is that it depends on the condition of the soul. I can imagine that a regular soul is too comfortable with itself and wouldn't want to change no matter how much stormlight you offer - while a soul that is millenia old and "really has enough" might be ... more susceptible? To finally be done with it? 

It might also depend on how convincing the soulcaster is. I presume there are differences between them, depending on their skill they need more or less stormlight to transform a certain "object"?

Exactly.  Relmatically speaking no reason exists why you can't use soulcasting to kill all the fused.  Practically doing so is not plausible.

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

They are on a five-Desolation contract, and Odium will be in trouble with the Fused workers-union if he fires them, even though he would very much like to. But he can't risk a general strike on Braize, so he has to put up with the antics of those insane Fused. 

HA!  I knew my lawyerform singers would make a reappearance one of these days!

[Guest Parallax]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

Nightblood is conspicuously absent from the narrative, period... We had a WoB that Szeth starts SA4 "in prison, by Dalinar's command", but we haven't seen that depicted yet, and we don't even know if that means he is still bearing Nightblood or not. I mean, given his Skybreaker oath, if Dalinar said he should go to prison while surrendering his strange black Blade to Navani for study, wouldn't he do it? 

Didn't Szeth kill a fused with Nightblood in the Battle of Thaylen Field?

[Rainier]

14 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Didn't Szeth kill a fused with Nightblood in the Battle of Thaylen Field?

He killed at least one Thunderclast.

We're also getting Vasher, either next week, or in two other preview chapters. I'm hoping when we see him it's because of Nightblood.

[+Child of Hodor]

21 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Didn't Szeth kill a fused with Nightblood in the Battle of Thaylen Field?

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

He killed at least one Thunderclast.

Yeah not totally clear on what Thunderclasts are. Singer Cognitive Shadow + Chasmfiend cognitive shadow is my guess. The bodies they create have humanoid forms, but they are giant and have arrowhead shaped heads like a chasm fiend. 

Venli sees them as giant mangled red  investiture in OB. Either way that one Nightblood killed is gone for good according to Brandon. I would  think he can kill a Fused permanently. 
 

[Karger he/him]

23 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Venli sees them as giant mangled red  investiture in OB. Either way that one Nightblood killed is gone for good according to Brandon. I would  think he can kill a Fused permanently. 

Given that both a vessel and Hoid are on the table where NB is concerned that is probably pretty actuate.  On the other hand NB is one of a kind and so valuable and expensive to use that it has limited utility.

[Potus]

I see the Pursuer trying to get to Kal, failing, and then doing anything to draw him out/break him. Which will most likely mean killing those close to him one by one or just rampaging through people. 

[Master Silver]

Haven't read the comments. Sorry, just a little pressed for time. 

My hope/prediction, is Kaladin's dad helps him get over his battle shock, and then Kaladin ends up saving Urathiru. I'm sure Taravangian's spies will say that Kaladin is broken, so the fused won't make a plan for him, even though Moash says they should. And perhaps this total extermination plan is so horrible that  it leads Moash to repent. If Odium can take someone's pain, can Cultivation block that process? 

Also, the way Leshwi protects Kaladin, and the information about being able to abandon bodies, I wouldn't doubt that she switches bodies again before the assault on Urathiru. Knowing that is going to be one of the climactic battles and having to wait another month plus 1000 pages is going to be hard. And then..... the drought hahaha. I must learn to savor it more. A very enjoyable chapter. Side note, I hope Jasinah burns out Taravangian's eyes. :-) 

[Schneeente]

1 hour ago, Potus said:

I see the Pursuer trying to get to Kal, failing, and then doing anything to draw him out/break him. Which will most likely mean killing those close to him one by one or just rampaging through people. 

I can totally see him being spiteful enough to do exactly that. Not sure Kaladin's psyche can take that.. Especially when his little brother gets killed (AGAIN)... outch.  And that would be so freaking easy to do... and would hurt him so so so much... now I am a bit afraid for him. 

 

12 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

My hope/prediction, is Kaladin's dad helps him get over his battle shock

Hehe, if you knew how insistent some people become that his dad has zero influence on his depression But yeah, I would like to see Kaladin and his dad finally burying their conflict as well! 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Schneeente

[Solant he/him]

Rabonial, Lady of Wishes, sounds like a Dark Souls boss.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Solant
And Pursuer actually is a Dark Souls boss. He has said that he loves From Soft games

[+JesterLavorre he/him]

I haven’t read all the comments here, so someone has probably already said this but I feel like the end of one of the arcs this book is going to be the Singers attacking Urithiru, with everything about to be lost, the Sibling about to be corrupted, and then Navani figures out the secret and turns Urithiru back on, maybe by bonding the sibling. Also, WHAT!? Some fused can apparently corrupt radiant spren? 

Also, there are so many cool aspects of singer culture we’re learning about here. I’m not super into Venli herself, but learning about the fused and singers will be fun. Leshwi and Raboniel are shaping up to be some of my favorites of Brandon’s villains. Raboniel seems super potent and dangerous.

[Karger he/him]

38 minutes ago, JesterLavorre said:

t I feel like the end of one of the arcs this book is going to be the Singers attacking Urithiru, with everything about to be lost, the Sibling about to be corrupted, and then Navani figures out the secret and turns Urithiru back on, maybe by bonding the sibling.

I think someone did say this but great minds so who knows? 

39 minutes ago, JesterLavorre said:

, WHAT!? Some fused can apparently corrupt radiant spren? 

We don't know how corruption works.  Raboniel has both "natural talents" and "gifts of Odium."  Her "special build" may allow her more then normally possible.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

12 hours ago, Cheat Commando said:

Oh man, maybe that's why the parshlady of Hearthstone was on the lookout for plaguespren. She might have thought it was to avoid disease, but really it was because Raboniel wants them to make plague-rials.

Also, from the first chapter:

Sounds like Raboniel already started...

No, that’s a cold from Scadrial. Demoux started it...

[Experience he/him]

I just had a question. Do we know which honorblade Moash has? I would guess it's Taln's because he didn't have his when he showed up at the shattered plains. Thoughts?

[Rainier]

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

Do we know which honorblade Moash has? I would guess it's Taln's because he didn't have his when he showed up at the shattered plains. Thoughts?

It's Jezrien's. Szeth started with it, it went to Bridge 4, and it was stolen in Oathbringer. At the end of the book it's given to Moash, thus revealing the source of the earlier theft.

[Experience he/him]

Oh, ya. Completely forgot about that lol. Thank you. 

1 minute ago, Rainier said:

It's Jezrien's. Szeth started with it, it went to Bridge 4, and it was stolen in Oathbringer. At the end of the book it's given to Moash, thus revealing the source of the earlier theft.

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Really enjoyed this chapter. I have long wanted distinct and cool Listener/Parsh/Singer/crab-people characters, and I finally feel like Brandon is starting to deliver for real in that department. So far we have had Eshonai, who was kinda boring, Venli, who, until now, has been kinda boring, a bunch of random parsh with no screen-time from WoR, who we havent seen since, and Rlain, who is ignored on purpose, which doesnt really make him very engaging. But this chapter really made their culture a lot cooler (especially with how it pointed out that a lot of the Fused are basically just tired old warriors, forced to fight an eternal and unjust war for a dark god who doesnt care about them). I really enjoy how the Fused are growing more and more desperate, and that Brandon made us believe that, despite the fact that they seemingly have all the advantages. 

Anyway, Lezian the Pursuer seems like the unhinged bad guy the story needs, to create some chaos and mayhem. And Raboniel feels like she could become an anti-.Jasnah, which could be great. Leshwi is getting some development too, which I defenitely didn't think would happen after OB. 

I do wonder where Nale is though. No mention of him or the Skybreakers, which is wierd, since they might be just as useful as Taravangian when it comes to invading Urithiru.

And also, who else thinks that Urithiru might fall at the end of RoW? We have had three "good guy wins" endings in a row, and having Urithiru fall would be a suitably dark ending to set up the finale of the first sequence.

No, I don’t think Urithiru falls at the end of Rhythm of War.
 

It falls 4/5ths of the way through. Possibly 2/3ds. The end is much to obvious for Brandon.

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, Parallax said:

Didn't Szeth kill a fused with Nightblood in the Battle of Thaylen Field?

I meant from RoW thus far.