RoW Chapter 13 Discussion

[Gilphon]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

Oh, and this stood out to me as well:

She seems awfully unsurprised about being bound to Roshar extending to two more planets - one of them being Damnation and by implication, ... The Tranquiline Halls?!

My assumption is that she doesn't at that point recognize either of those two names and they may as well just be any two other planets she's never been to (and doesn't expect to visit) that she can go to with a spren bond.

But only a little bit later, in the same conversation with Mraize, he drops this:

So at some point do you think something will click in her mind and say hey... Wait... Braize = Damnation = I can go there from Roshar... Then Ashyn = ...?????

I mean, she found out that humans originally came from somewhere other than Roshar last book. I do not think Ashyn and Braize are new information to her. 

[Infinity Sliver]

33 minutes ago, Kittalia said:

It couldn't be Renarin; Spanreeds don't work on the barge, and it was (almost) definitely back in the air by the time Navani landed on the shattered plains. 

I mean,if Sja-anat had told him to do it regardless of  if he thought it wouldnt work,I see no reason why he couldnt have planted it?

 

Oh,Could the reason why Navani's penpal say the honorspren cant be trusted is because of whatever it is that's going on with Restares and they're willingness to give him safe haven?

[+robardin]

Just now, Gilphon said:

I mean, she found out that humans originally came from somewhere other than Roshar last book. I do not think Ashyn and Braize are new information to her. 

True, but wouldn't the idea of visiting Ashyn pique her curiosity? Maybe it's the archaeologist in me, but the idea of "Not only is your Eden Story kind of based in reality, you actually can go see its ruins!" would be very tantalizing.

I mean if she was raised Vorin and believed that her life and afterlife's mission was to retake the Tranquiline Halls... Doesn't that start by knowing how to get there? Even if she no longer believes it as literal truth?

[Gilphon]

28 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I missed Navani's epigraph! Hmm... it makes sense that Flamespren would be easier to divide, fire is very eager to spread and be shared after all.

Flamespren make sense to me for this reason. But why rubies? Are they just the easiest to divide for real world physical reasons? Or are they best suited to holding flamespren?

But then there's the detail about Reversers using amethysts. If you're right about why Flamespren are used for Conjoiners, they're probably used for Reversers as well. Which implies the difference is due to the magic properties of the gems.

Navani's sure spent this entire time talking around the most mysterious aspect of Fabrials, hasn't she?

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Flamespren make sense to me for this reason. But why rubies? Are they just the easiest to divide for real world physical reasons? Or are they best suited to holding flamespren?

The chemical difference is minimal.  I think the second is more probable considering we see heatrails also use rubies.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Karger

[KandraAllomancer]

30 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Flamespren make sense to me for this reason. But why rubies? Are they just the easiest to divide for real world physical reasons? Or are they best suited to holding flamespren?

Rubies are used to Soulcast things into fire, so there might be a connection here

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

in favor of ... their Boss-Shard?

Think bigger. Why chain yourself to a shard, when you can get all the unconnected power yourself?

I've long thought Hoid is trying to get some of each shard, so he can combine them all for himself, and their Intents will combine as well, allowing him, Hoid, to hold power comparable to a shard without the corrupting pressure of the Intent.

Now I'm thinking he's not the only one looking for power free from the parent shards. It sounds like the Ghostbloods know more about Connection than Intent, but their aims certainly overlap.

[Duke of Lizards]

“Roshar has something that so many other peoples in the cosmere want: free, portable, easy-to-access power.”

 

Roshar=Arrakis 

The Stormlight must flow. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Duke of Lizards

[Kittalia]

1 hour ago, Infinitysliver said:

I mean,if Sja-anat had told him to do it regardless of  if he thought it wouldnt work,I see no reason why he couldnt have planted it?

Oh, I read the previous comment as Renarin being the writer as well. I suppose he could have left the spanreed gem there. Although if he is in on it I don't know why he wouldn't talk to her about it himself—we see that Navani is one of the few people who has always taken him seriously, and the message would have more weight if Renarin brought it up instead of creepy mysterious spanreed. 

[+Oltux72]

"Ḧe had Voidlight before the Everstorm"

 

Does this tell us that there is a method to get Voidlight out of the Everstorm? It just doesn't work by simply leaving gems outside?

[Michael Portz]

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

"Ḧe had Voidlight before the Everstorm"

 

Does this tell us that there is a method to get Voidlight out of the Everstorm? It just doesn't work by simply leaving gems outside?

I guess that was Gavilar visiting Braize bringing back the voidlight filled spheres:

Quote

[https://www.tor.com/2020/07/23/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-prologue-and-chapter-one/]

“…Being able to bring them back and forth from Braize doesn’t mean anything,” one said. “It’s too close to be a relevant distance.”

...

On the table between Gavilar and the men lay a group of spheres.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Michael Portz
added quote source

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Does this tell us that there is a method to get Voidlight out of the Everstorm? It just doesn't work by simply leaving gems outside?

We already knew from OB that it does not.

[LightReader]

For the record, all the discussion about whether Shallan’s DID is done right can be solved simply by noting that her actual real world diagnosis would probably be OSDD-1b (Otherwise Specified Dissociative Disorder, type 1b), which is the diagnosis usually given in cases where the alters don’t have amnesia barriers between them. I do really hope that Brandon doesn’t use the jekyll & hyde stereotype where one of the alters is a muderer/serial killer type though, because that’s been done a lot and is probably the most damaging trope when it comes to how DID is usually portrayed in entertainment media. 

[Schneeente]

15 minutes ago, LightReader said:

 I do really hope that Brandon doesn’t use the jekyll & hyde stereotype where one of the alters is a muderer/serial killer type though, because that’s been done a lot and is probably the most damaging trope when it comes to how DID is usually portrayed in entertainment media. 

Oh boy, the idea most subscribed right now seems to be that formless is the spy...  I hope you will not be disappointed.  

[Infinity Sliver]

I'm more of the camp that Radiant is the spy

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Duke of Lizards said:

Roshar=Arrakis 

The Stormlight must flow. 

Cultivation = Bene Gesserit, Kholin = Atriedes, Sadeas = Harkonnen

Greatshell = Sandworm

This is a lot more solid than it has any right to be.

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

Oh boy, the idea most subscribed right now seems to be that formless is the spy...  I hope you will not be disappointed.  

Doesn't mean that "Formless" is a "murderer/serial killer" either, even if that proved to be the case; simply more willing to go along with the Ghostbloods, for now at least.

As far as being an informant to the GBs in Dalinar's inner circle, we don't know what she's told them. As with Amaram's study, it could certainly be a selection of information she feels it's safe for them to possess, while gaining/retaining their trust.

[Schneeente]

 

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Doesn't mean that "Formless" is a "murderer/serial killer" either

Well, if Formless is the spy, she probably already killed at least 1 person..  I really hope it is not Formless though. I hope they somehow coerced Gaz.. he's weak. 

[Gilphon]

Honestly, although I've suspected Gaz in the past, my mind went to suspecting Adolin as the spy this chapter. Like, the Mraize comes so close to saying that he has a spy among the lightweavers, but doesn't quite say it. Like he wanted Shallan to suspect them. And then he sends her off to Shadesmar, where the spy couldn't keep watch on her anymore, unless it was somebody that she didn't suspect at all. 

I find ideas about any permutation of Shallan being the spy to be increasingly silly, to be honest. There's no way Mraize would be confident in his ability to keep that secret from her, quite apart from any other issues.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Gilphon

[agrabes]

Well, much as Chapter 12 went in a direction I really liked, Chapter 13 went in a direction I really disliked.  *shrug*  I guess it makes sense, reading Shallan POVs just makes me feel very uneasy since about midway through Oathbringer.  For me, it's a matter of keeping it in context though - have to remember that the book is clearly setting up that the characters who know and love Shallan understand she's in a deeply unhealthy place right now, even if she isn't willing to fully admit it to herself.  So right now, we are seeing her continued downward spiral, even if she isn't willing to admit it to herself and therefore her chapters read like everything is mostly OK and the danger is no greater than it's been before.  From the outside, we as readers and even other characters understand it's bad and still getting worse.  

Though this is probably an unpopular opinion, I really disliked the fact that the conversation between Shallan and Mraize casually dropped massive cosmere ideas and concepts and seems to indicate that RoW will introduce an integrated cosmere fully into a mainstream novel for the first time with very minimal buildup for such a major concept.  I've gone on about this in other threads so I won't repeat myself here.  Just disappointed in what seems to be the direction the story is taking based on the Shallan/Mraize scene.

[+robardin]

Just now, Schneeente said:

Well, if Formless is the spy, she probably already killed at least 1 person..  I really hope it is not Formless though. I hope they somehow coerced Gaz.. he's weak. 

The problem there is I don't see him (or another Lightweaver squire) being deft/adroit enough to pull that poisoning off with Shallan present the whole time.

In Ch. 7, she's alone with Ialai, and then summons her Blade to kill her (with Ialai saying, "do it"), then dismisses it instead as The Three - including Veil - decide against it:

Quote

“You’re not dying today,” the Three said. “I have more questions for you.”

Ialai kept her eyes closed. “I won’t get to answer. They won’t let me.”

Shallan emerged, calming her nerves as several soldiers rushed up to surround Ialai. Veil and Radiant settled back, both pleased at this outcome. They were their own person. They did not belong to Mraize.

She shook her head and trotted over to Adolin, then dismissed his illusory face with a touch. She needed to see him as himself.

“Which one are you?” he asked quietly, a pouch of infused spheres.

“Shallan,” she said, putting the pouch into her satchel, which a soldier fetched for her from beside the wall. She glanced over her shoulder as the soldiers bound Ialai, and again Shallan was struck by how deflated the woman looked.

...[Shallan waved] the soldiers to bring the woman over. Ialai walked with her eyes closed, still maintaining her fatalistic air. Shallan took Ialai by the arm, then breathed out and let the Lightweaving surround her, ...

... Shallan let go, hand going to her satchel. Radiant was the one who emerged, however. She grabbed Ialai by her arm and towed her over to Adolin’s soldiers, handing her off.

Ishnah and the soldiers—Adolin’s men, hand-picked from among his finest—led the disguised and bound Ialai out the door. The highprincess sagged in their grip.

Ialai's last words - she was silent as the disguise illusion was put over her - were said to Shallan before "Shallan emerged" as "soldiers rushed up to surround Ialai", and then later, only Ishnah and the soldiers were physically with her after the illusion was put on - by which time she was already poisoned.

If Mraize was indeed telling the truth by denying the GBs had any agents in Adolin's team of soliders, it would seem the only possibilities are either a really fast-acting Ishnah, or... A version of Shallan. Either after Ialai said "they won't let me" and before the soldiers arrived on the scene, or while doing the Lightweaving.

And what was the detail about Shallan's "hand going to her satchel" about?

[Gilphon]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Though this is probably an unpopular opinion, I really disliked the fact that the conversation between Shallan and Mraize casually dropped massive cosmere ideas and concepts and seems to indicate that RoW will introduce an integrated cosmere fully into a mainstream novel for the first time with very minimal buildup for such a major concept.  I've gone on about this in other threads so I won't repeat myself here.  Just disappointed in what seems to be the direction the story is taking based on the Shallan/Mraize scene.

Minimal buildup? You say that like we haven't had two books worth of increasingly unsubtle hints of 'the Ghostbloods are Cosmere-aware', three books of epigraphs of Hoid talking with Shards, and one book of main characters from Warbreaker hanging out with important characters, making no particular effort to hid their identities. 

And nor are the ideas being dropped here particularly massive. Names are dropped without any context for what they mean beyond the implication that they're somewhere further than Ashyn and Braize, and there's talk about how it's hard to bring stormlight to those places. Not particular huge ideas, by themselves.

Really the whole Allomancy/ Fabrial connection should be making a lot more people go 'wait what?' than any of thing Ghostblood stuff, that's all been built up pretty naturally. 

And in case, there's certainly nothing here the requires having read Mistborn to understand what's going on, or anything.

[+Ptolema]

7 hours ago, Pattern said:

Hmmm, fabrial science looks more and more like the butchering of spren. Time for Spren Rights Activists ;-)

This got me thinking: I realize it's probably a huge leap in logic but if Urithiru is like a giant fabrial and apparently fabrials can be split... Could something the Radiants did have broken Urithiru (and by extension, the Sibling)? Stormfather seemed adamant that it was the humans who hurt the Sibling, and other than Radiance, the only thing humans seem to be consistently dabbling in are fabrials. I feel like if how they "hurt" the Sibling were something as simple as broken Radiant oaths, the Stormfather wouldn't shut up about it, as opposed to being so purposefully ambiguous as to whatever happened to the Sibling.

From the epigraph:

Quote

Other types of spren do not split as evenly, as easily, or at all.

-

6 hours ago, robardin said:

What about the Oathgates granting direct access to Shadesmar, that Dalinar's (Navani's) scholars have been slowly unlocking the secrets of? I thought they were locked from doing so "by the word of the parent" who is "dead now" in "the parent's last days" in Oathbringer? (Was that parent not Honor, could it be the Sibling who is now "sleeping" as a spren cannot really be "killed"?)

Might I ask exactly in which chapter does it say "the parent"? Because that's notable considering how the phrasing of the Sibling seems to intentionally go out of their way to indicate the Sibling as neither gender. There's the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher is described as a woman, Cultivation is "Mother". Though it would be weird to call them dead if it's the Sibling, considering how the deadeyes are considered irrevocably dead by spren, while the Sibling is "sleeping". Still, the gender-neutral "parent" is notable, though I'd assumed the Oathgate spren were commanded by Honor.

-

Quote

"I think she’s worried about how people are treating Renarin."

...how ARE people treating Renarin? I am suddenly concerned.

-

And oooo Sja-anat is literate. That's... interesting.

[Zea mays]

Restares. I’ve been wandering about him since he made his one walk-on in-text appearance in Kaladin’s penultimate flashback in WOK. Was kinda hoping Kal would get to confront him, but maybe he’ll eventually get over his brands some other way. 
Very interesting and tantalizing chapter. 
 

BTW, the bird could be a Kea.

[Subvisual Haze]

36 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Though this is probably an unpopular opinion, I really disliked the fact that the conversation between Shallan and Mraize casually dropped massive cosmere ideas and concepts and seems to indicate that RoW will introduce an integrated cosmere fully into a mainstream novel for the first time with very minimal buildup for such a major concept.  I've gone on about this in other threads so I won't repeat myself here.  Just disappointed in what seems to be the direction the story is taking based on the Shallan/Mraize scene.

I clapped when I saw cosmere reference because I know what that is!