RoW Chapter 11 Discussion

[Karger]

10 hours ago, jamskinner said:

How does he know she’s a her?

10 hours ago, Bliev said:

Good point. He probably doesn't. Nor would he care. But *we* know Leshwi is female. Alternatively, they've gathered intel on the main Fused.

Regardless, it's an irrelevant detail. Let's not be all Vorin and weird about gender roles up in here. lol

Well he can identify that she is the leader between her different deaths(I am guessing from her fighting style and skin patterns) and potentially from prisoners.  Along with knowing how fused are made they have probably figured out that fused gender != sex.

[+Bliev]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Well he can identify that she is the leader between her different deaths(I am guessing from her fighting style and skin patterns) and potentially from prisoners.  Along with knowing how fused are made they have probably figured out that fused gender != sex.

I'm excited that, in a few brief chapters, Brandon has almost told us more about Singer (and Fused!) cultures than we've had in three books thus far. Brandon also tends to tell stories of cultures with strict gendered roles and norms, which of course mirror many patriarchal civilizations. But in Fantasy, it's nice to see the "fantastical" turn toward gender and sex as well, and the Singers seems wholly uninterested in gender for the most part, trading that organizing paradigm for other hierarchies. It's refreshing.

It will be interesting to see this pulled through to the differences among the Fused and among the Regal vs. old forms. How do they organize their world and their power?

[Subvisual Haze]

If you're going with the established idea that the singers have very subtle sexual dimorphism, adding in the need for Leshwi to have her face shaved in her new malen body seems an odd detail to add.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

If you're going with the established idea that the singers have very subtle sexual dimorphism, adding in the need for Leshwi to have her face shaved in her new malen body seems an odd detail to add.

Actually during early battles in WoKs Dalinar notes that some parshendi don't have beards.

[Greywatch]

In Way of Kings, the malen Parshendi having beards is one of the few (the only?) giveaway of gender dimorphism that leads Dalinar to wonder if some of the Parshendi were women. Without that hint, it was not obvious to the humans. Ascribing the lack of gender markers as Brandon making a "logical error" is a bit silly, and ignores the established facts of the singers' physiology that we've had on hand since literally the first book. Kaladin looking for colour patterns instead of a female-shaped body makes complete sense.

[+Oltux72]

20 hours ago, nonix said:

He summoned her as a spear.

That turns this into a useless remark. Kaladin surely never fights with anything but the Sylspear if he can help it.

16 hours ago, Zea mays said:

I can't get over this Leshwi being in a male-en body in this incarnation. How did Kaladin not notice? Is my boy gender-blind or just uber-mad "woke"?

It is a different species. With reduced sexual characteristics in the non-breeding form. Can you tell most male and female mammals apart?

[Honorless]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

In Way of Kings, the malen Parshendi having beards is one of the few (the only?) giveaway of gender dimorphism that leads Dalinar to wonder if some of the Parshendi were women. Without that hint, it was not obvious to the humans. Ascribing the lack of gender markers as Brandon making a "logical error" is a bit silly, and ignores the established facts of the singers' physiology that we've had on hand since literally the first book. Kaladin looking for colour patterns instead of a female-shapred body makes complete sense.

It's possible that the sexual dimorphism among the Parshendi is also related to their Forms, going by the description of Hariel, though that was from the point-of-view of a Parshendi character herself. There's apparently not much of a height or musculature difference between the two genders in the modern Listeners, probably due to the Forms but among the Fused Hariel's description does stand out looking back it now, or maybe I'm reading too much into this.

[+Bliev]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That turns this into a useless remark. Kaladin surely never fights with anything but the Sylspear if he can help it.

I don't think it's useless. He knows she's always close because he always fights with her. But I think the whole Radiant think is probably fascinating to a Fused like Leshwi. They have never bonded a sapient spren, or interacted with one, probably. She might want to know just for herself and her curiosity about how it works. The Heralds are like her. The Radiants aren't. 

Alternatively, she wants to see Syl as part of a tactical strike? 

[go_go_gragdet]

I found the passages I was looking for, in TWoK and OB.

Turns out it was Dalinar who reflected on sexual dimorphism in Parshendi (chapter 56 of TWoK):

Quote

The Parshendi force was regrouping. As always, the two-person teams were the focus of their strategy. Each pair would have different weapons, and often one was clean-shaven while the other had a beard woven with gemstones. His scholars had suggested this was some kind of primitive apprenticeship.

Dalinar inspected the clean-shaven ones for signs of any stubble. There was none, and more than a few had a faintly feminine shape to their faces. Could the ones without beards all be women? They didn’t appear to have much in the way of breasts, and their builds were like those of men, but the stranger Parshendi armor could be masking things. The beardless ones did seem smaller by a few fingers, and the shapes of the faces… studying them, it seemed possible. Could the pairs be husbands and wives fighting together? That struck him as strangely fascinating. Was it possible that, despite six years of war, nobody had taken the time to investigate the genders of those they fought?

 

And from chapter 54 of Oathbringer, first the part where Moash recognizes Leshwi's patterns:

Quote

“Wait,”Moash said, cold. “When I killed you?”

She regarded him, unblinking, with those ruby eyes.

“You’re the same one?” Moash asked. That pattern of marbled skin… he realized. It’s the same as the one I fought. But the features were different.

“This is a new body offered to me in sacrifice,” Leshwi said. “To bond and make my own, as I have none.”

 

Note that Leshwi’s colors and patterns are apparently quite striking, as earlier in this chapter, Moash notices:

Quote

Leshwi, the other had called her. She had a face that was all three Parshendi colors: white, red, and black, marbled like paint swirled together. He had rarely seen someone who was all three colors before, and this was one of the most transfixing patterns he’d seen, almost liquid in its effect, her eyes like pools around which the colors ran.

 

[Subvisual Haze]

That's true, I'm not sure how I forgot the presence of beards when the infused gems in them played an important part in WoK's ending.

That still feels a little unusual to me.  The general pattern I had assumed was very little dimorphism with the specific exception of mateform.

[go_go_gragdet]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

That's true, I'm not sure how I forgot the presence of beards when the infused gems in them played an important part in WoK's ending.

That still feels a little unusual to me.  The general pattern I had assumed was very little dimorphism with the specific exception of mateform.

To be fair the part I quoted does imply that there is very little dimorphism save for the beards: it did take Dalinar some careful, upclose observation to notice any other difference (like average height and facial bone structure), and that was years into the war.

If it had not been a custom for malen Parshendi to let their beards grow, perhaps Dalinar would never have noticed the absence of stubble in some Parshendi, or any other sex characteristic. That's the thing with beards; they can be easily shaved. Some other sex characteristics (genitals, bone structure, etc.) are not so easily done away with. And maybe this is why Kaladin automatically assumes a singer without a visible beard is femalen; there is little else to go by, to his human eyes.

[jamskinner]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That turns this into a useless remark. Kaladin surely never fights with anything but the Sylspear if he can help it.

It is a different species. With reduced sexual characteristics in the non-breeding form. Can you tell most male and female mammals apart?

Ya. It’s pretty easy to tell the difference. Hope I don’t need to explain it to you. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by jamskinner
Clarity

[Lemiltock]

Is it, how would one tell wombats apart without looking at their genitalia?

The fact that Kaladin didnt remark on Leshwins stubble when it is not a defining characteristic of them during a fight scene is not Brandon taking a stance. It would be weird if he did as it would break up the pacing (out of wolrd) and would also not be something someone thinks while fighting for their life (in world).

[ftl]

Yeah, it would be pretty hard to tell.

I don't know, I'm imagining seeing a raccoon in the woods. How would I tell? I'm not gonna pick it up and inspect it. Or, like a bear. Wouldn't know. A deer I'd be able to tell - by antlers.

And a Parshendi in a form besides mateform - well, sounds like "Beard" is the best way to tell. So if Leshwi has always appeared beardless, maybe that's why Kaladin always assumes female. Kal would probably not notice "a bit of stubble", so wouldn't even notice that this body is particularly different from others.

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, jamskinner said:

Ya. It’s pretty easy to tell the difference. Hope I don’t need to explain it to you. 

Can you explain it to the pet store? They keep giving people the wrong gendered gerbils (usually discovered when two ‘males’ or two ‘females’ have babies... LOTS of babies.)

[jamskinner]

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Can you explain it to the pet store? They keep giving people the wrong gendered gerbils (usually discovered when two ‘males’ or two ‘females’ have babies... LOTS of babies.)

Maybe they need a magnifying glass. 

[Turtle]

On 9/15/2020 at 9:29 AM, Pattern said:

Finally we got a Venli chapter. And we see her working toward the Willshaper oaths - like

"I will seek freedom"

Freeing singers from Odium's influence and the domination of humans looks like a difficult task, though...

will shaper oaths!

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, jamskinner said:

Maybe they need a magnifying glass. 

Clearly!

[Honorless]

you people!

[Skarn]

On 9/15/2020 at 6:36 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

To Rebel.

That should be the title of the prologue if Venli is the next pov of the night of Gavilar's Assassination. 

The next prologue viewpoint is currently planned to be from Gavilar himself. Source That is going to be VERY interesting! 3 years from now, haha.

 

On 9/15/2020 at 11:53 AM, GudThymes said:

Hmmm. Good to know. I would assume it's soulcast then, given what I said above about creation of coal.

 

Honestly I'm not sure how coal exists anywhere in the cosmere given that it takes literally millions of years to form. But that's a digression.

From the mantra that Taln endlessly repeats: "Kalak will teach you to cast bronze, if you have forgotten this. We will Soulcast blocks of metal directly for you. I wish we could teach you steel, but casting is so much easier than forging, and you must have something we can produce quickly."

So they did know steel (and still do, from the half shard comment posted earlier) but it seems they can't soulcast to steel. Interesting!

 

On 9/15/2020 at 11:09 AM, Harbour said:

This made me consider the possibility of Lezian killing one Windrunner after another in order to provoke Kaladin out of surgeon job, and these deaths would heavy the burden of guilt Kaladin has, untill the breaking point when he will say 4th Ideal.

The Fourth Ideal seems to have something to do with letting go of guilt, or recognizing that he can't protect everyone. I think a heavier burden of guilt would make it harder to say the Ideal, not easier. I think Kaladin needs a better balance, to not put so much on himself, to let others have agency and recognize that many things are out of his control, he's not a failure. I do hope he reaches it in this book!

[+Bzhydack]

3 hours ago, Skarn said:

So they did know steel (and still do, from the half shard comment posted earlier) but it seems they can't soulcast to steel. Interesting!

They can Soulcast to Steel. Even standard Soulcasters can do this - 8th Essence, Foil. Soulcasting is just too Investiture - consuming and its not long-term solution - simpler and faster is make 1 form and cast dozens of bronze swords, than soulcast every one of them.

[jamskinner]

On 9/17/2020 at 9:01 PM, Lemiltock said:

Is it, how would one tell wombats apart without looking at their genitalia?

The fact that Kaladin didnt remark on Leshwins stubble when it is not a defining characteristic of them during a fight scene is not Brandon taking a stance. It would be weird if he did as it would break up the pacing (out of wolrd) and would also not be something someone thinks while fighting for their life (in world).

I only know of one mammal that wears clothes so ya it’s easy. 

[Lemiltock]

10 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

I only know of one mammal that wears clothes so ya it’s easy. 

What do cloths have to do with gender identification?

I also thought you had issue with Kaladin not noticing stubble mid fight to the death and not whether Leshwin was wearing clothing or not.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Skarn said:

From the mantra that Taln endlessly repeats: "Kalak will teach you to cast bronze, if you have forgotten this. We will Soulcast blocks of metal directly for you. I wish we could teach you steel, but casting is so much easier than forging, and you must have something we can produce quickly."

So they did know steel (and still do, from the half shard comment posted earlier) but it seems they can't soulcast to steel. Interesting!

You'd have to soulcast every sword separately. Casting steel requires temperatures that are beyond primitive technology. Yet if you do that you lose the work hardening step.

4 hours ago, jamskinner said:

I only know of one mammal that wears clothes so ya it’s easy. 

Fur?

[jamskinner]

7 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

What do cloths have to do with gender identification?

I also thought you had issue with Kaladin not noticing stubble mid fight to the death and not whether Leshwin was wearing clothing or not.

Don’t be obtuse. It was a response to mammals gender being difficult to tell apart. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by jamskinner
Less harsh