RoW Chapter 9 Discussion

[ftl]

2 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Navani. I love Navani but I feel somewhat uncomfortable with her opinion on the spren issue. Yes, it's a different culture, and yes, accepting that capturing spren is cruel would be accepting that her passion is inhumane and that she should leave it. But still, how nonchalantly she brushes off the issue as soon as she reads it, as if it were a joke almost. It wasn't too nice.

Well, I think the reason was the comment about the Honorspren - she'd talked to Honorspren about exactly this and they said otherwise, and she trusts them a good bit more than an unidentified spanreed writer.

[Harbour he/him]

Right now both Kaladin and Shallan felt way too mental health centric. I understand that in real life mental health may play very important role, however, this is the fictional story, fantasy one, whose general purpose is to entertain and satisfy the audience.

Id wish Kaladin's depression influenced his reflection upon various things in a lesser way. In WoK this was kinda negated by his desire to save his teammates, in WoR he was busy enough to not dive too much into depression (and thats when his character, imo, shone and was enjoyable to read about the most), in OB it was kinda routine-centric except for Kholinar trip. In RoW now it became obvious that he need to be brought to do more than just fighting.

Maybe thats why Brandon will shift him into surgeon position.

Im actually excited to read more about Kaladin-surgeon, if it wont be the 100 pages of him glooming and being a supreme edgelord.

I want him to heal patients, bicker with Edgedancers about how to better do their job, care for hospital and talk about how is better to infrastructure the care system. Weird, i know, but this will allow to focus on him, not his mental health.

Shallan also was the most fascinating to read about in WoR. Back then she didnt split into three personas, so she was both smart, cunning, dangerous, observing, funny and full of life. 

Then, in OB, it seems like she just took her traits, give some of them to Veil, some of them to Shallan, some of them to Radiant - at turned those traits to eleven to enforce her personas. In OB i simply didnt want to read her chapters because the process of fracturing wasnt appealing to read.

By the start of RoW, i feel, this process was finished, and her personas stabilized, and she became somewhat new character, but i regain the interest in reading her chapters.

She became different, but the scenes of her inner voice emerging one after another is pretty chilling and interesting to read about. Maybe Brandon figured out how to handle the writing of her character, maybe it was the influence of beta-reader with DID, but Shallan became readable again, at least for me. 

So, my interest in reading about Kaladin and Shallan was like this:

WoK: Kaladin - 9/10, Shallan - 6/10;

WoR: Kaladin - 10/10, Shallan - 8/10,

OB: Kaladin - 9/10, Shallan - 3/10,

RoW Preview: Kaladin - 7/10, Shallan - 8/10.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Harbour

[Rai she/her]

I've seen a few people worried about Kaladin and Shallan becoming repetitive re: their mental illness, but I dunno. In Shallan's case, we still haven't actually seen all the trauma in her past (amazingly) so I'm not surprised that her illness is an ongoing problem since this actively informs her DID. As her mental health's progressed on-screen with every book, it's actually never read as repetitive to me? Though I can see some people just didn't like her fracturing into multiple personalities. But I feel optimistic that we'll see a positive and significant progression with her this book (after another downward spiral, albeit). 

Regarding Kaladin, he always found a temporary solution to cope with his depression in previous books... but they were never long-term solutions, as we can see in RoW. Sure, managing to protect and uplift Bridge 4 carried him through, but how can that still carry forward when the stakes grow higher and it becomes impossible to do in a planetary war? His realization of and inability to deal with that seems to be driving both his current depressive episode and his failure to speak the 4th Oath. This is not mentioning other issues also causing him to spiral, such as no longer being able to divide his side and the Singers/Fused into an Us vs Them mentality, what seems to be growing PTSD, et cetera. Hence why he's hit rock bottom now, because what was once his coping method is no longer sustainable (and he has a much larger group to look after, which I'm sure doesn't make his stress and the pressure any easier). All that said, the point I'm trying to make is that he won't be able to significantly progress in dealing with his depression until he actually faces his root conflict, the one thing he's never been able to come to terms with: he can't save everyone. And this isn't to say it'll solve everything, because his clinical depression will always be there and isn't driven by a specific trauma, but it will help him progress as a person. I really do think that once this is dealt with, Kaladin's mental health will become substantially better, and won't be taking up so much of his POV. 

So while I understand why seeing Kaladin at his worst again might come across as... tiring? To the reader, I can also see why Brandon thought it was necessary for him to hit rock bottom again. On the plus side, fighting does seem to be exacerbating his issues a lot and Syl mentions in her interlude that Kaladin seems to be sleeping better after being taken off active duty, so he'll likely be making gradual steps towards getting better throughout the book. Taking him away from fighting and placing him as a surgeon will also be super interesting for his character development, I think, as it was where he would have ended up if everything had worked out instead of going... catastrophically. 

(As an aside, while I think Kaladin is kind of naturally an edgy person, calling him an edgelord feels... pretty reductive of his actual issues.)

Edited September 4, 2020 by Rai

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

Theory 1 (& FYI I am wrong 99.9% of the time on these): The Sons of Honor are/were being hunted & killed, not by the Ghostbloods, but by the Seventeenth Shard (not us!! - the in-universe secret society). My second guess is the Ire.

(Related) Theory 2: Ialai was killed by a Forger who disguised themself to infiltrate either her own personal staff or Shallan/Adolin's core team.

Sooooo excited for the RoW release!!

[Silverblade5 he/him]

*Reads chapter*
Oh no, they're getting PETA for spren! Almost just as bad as Ghostbloods

[Scriptorian he/him]

6 hours ago, Iarwainiel said:

Theory 1 (& FYI I am wrong 99.9% of the time on these): The Sons of Honor are/were being hunted & killed, not by the Ghostbloods, but by the Seventeenth Shard (not us!! - the in-universe secret society).

*surreptitiously puts away a large metal spike*
 

I am very curious to know what the 17th Shard is up to right now. It would definitely be interesting to find out they’re behind one of the ongoing mysteries. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Scriptorian

[GoddessIMHO]

No one has mentioned the difference between fabrials and soul-casters. Fabrials don't take away the person using them until they become a casting themselves. Another thing that stuck out for me was the closed eyes like the Spren were sleeping, like the Sibling is sleeping and we have the Sleepless. It just seems like this all might fit together and the mystery person/Spren was speaking of Soul-casters.

My theory was feeling good until I thought about what most of the early narrative is about; It's about fabrials and not soul-casters. In particular, it's about Navani creating many more of the split type of fabrial like the Span Reeds. The air ship is a very heavy user of these split fabrials as are the lifts in Urithiru so Navani has had many of them created. I can't think of any other fabrial she has created in large numbers.

When it comes to the Honor Spren there seems to be a very determined effort to NOT bond with humans. The same for the Dust Bringers and Sky Breakers but our new Radients don't seem to care so much about the latter two. Perhaps it's because the Wind Runners are seen as the bulk of the fighting troops. At any rate, all the foreshadowing seems to concern Honor spren so why send Adolin and Shallan without Kaladin? Would Syl be considered a problem going to Lasting Integrity?

Finally, poor Shallan, could Formless end up being an Unmade that was hidden inside her mind? What made a Spren bond with such a young child. The Cryptics sent pattern to her didn't they? Same with Jashna, perhaps she too had some unfortunate similar experience as a child so she also bonded early?

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 9/4/2020 at 0:48 AM, Eluvianii said:

Storms! I completely forgot about this week's chapter. I'm adjusting to the busiest long-term schedule I've had and it's being, weird.

Anyway, well, looks like I was wrong. Moash was indeed trying to convince Kaladin to kill himself. I'm still a bit surprised though. I didn't think Moash was so far gone to think of his actions as a mercy. If it was him simply trying to kill Kal out of mercy, it would be more usual but trying to convince him to do it himself? The villain doing wrong thinking it right is a pretty common trope but this is taking it to a whole other level.

Speaking of Kal, I don't know how to feel about him right now. He had worse moments in WoK, but they were short, and they ended as soon as he found something to drive him forward. Now the motivation is already there, but he's sinking all the same. His previous failures still weigh on him and he's accumulating even more. It's coming to be pretty in-your-face though, how the deaths are bothering him more than ever, how there have been several close calls during the year and how he froze every time. You all were right, everything is pointing, with neon lights and everything, to a fourth Ideal based on "You can't protect everyone". The journey towards it is gonna be rough though.

I can't say a thing about Shallan that hasn't been said before on the thread but I agree with that point about her personas not being separate beings. I never understood why some people seemed to think they were their own separate person with different skills and everything. OB makes a point of making clear that that isn't the case when Shallan goes so confidently to a bar and drinks the strongest thing they have, because Veil is a great drinker of course, and it goes terribly wrong. She knows nothing about liquors and she has zero tolerance. Now she is a great drinker but only after some intensive practice and because she has Stormlight to aid her. The point being, Veil cannot do anything that Shallan herself couldn't. Because she is a part of her, not some kind of parasite relying on her body. Now, where does that leave her for this book? I honestly don't know, several things that have been said here seem all really interesting and plausible. Is she adopted? A serial killer (beyond her parents)? A completely different being? Or is there no last truth save for that fact itself? I don't know, but it seems terrifying and I am so looking forward to her POVs during the rest of the book.

(Btw, someone said Adolin could be killed off as his character has no current nor potential future growth. Come on, OB was basically Setup for Adolin's Development: The Book, I'm convinced there's big stuff in store for him)

Navani. I love Navani but I feel somewhat uncomfortable with her opinion on the spren issue. Yes, it's a different culture, and yes, accepting that capturing spren is cruel would be accepting that her passion is inhumane and that she should leave it. But still, how nonchalantly she brushes off the issue as soon as she reads it, as if it were a joke almost. It wasn't too nice.

Also, those planet name drops! And we're only starting, supposedly the one with the Cosmere secrets is Venli. I can't wait.

Now, I have a couple crackpot theories that occured to me. (please don't take these seriously)

What if Shallan comes from another world, maybe Nalthis idk, and her eventually accepting that truth is the reason she's the first one of the main group to start becoming Cosmere-aware?

What if every surge fabrial has the same chain structure, because you're effectively chaining the spren and dragging it around?

What if Feverstone Keep is in Amia? What about Ashyn?

Ok, enough I believe. Great chapter. Sorry for being late.

Shallan’s last truth seems pretty clear to me: I am Shallan. ‘Shallan’, Veil, Radiant, (Formless?), the one we haven’t met, are all one person. Singular, unique. Who is cunning and smart, an artist, capable of running cons and using a sword. 
 

To complete her journey, Shallan will undergo Catharsis, and her identities will merge into a single, cohesive, whole. The personae will be sublimated and psyche will be whole. All that will remain is to acknowledge the truth.

 

I am Shallan.

(Note: the repeated usage of the term Persona with regard to the alters leads me toward a Jungian take. There is a lot of Jungian imagery involved with Lightweavers in particular and the Cosmere in general. So the terminology used is in accordance with a Jungian interpretation.)

Edited September 6, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Sparks]

New theory of mine for spren / Soulcasters / singers:

Since Brandon has already said, "given enough time, Investiture will gain sentience" (paraphrased), my new pet theory is that Stormlight -> spren -> Parshmen / Parshendi / the Singers are all on one evolutionary line.   Spren are investiture given energy, some form and possibly some sentience.  The Singers are an offshoot of Spren that became more entirely grounded in the Physical realm, either by being trapped here or through slow evolution, but still retaining some of their Spren-like characteristics, like their magic communication, their influence by music and rhythm, and their ability to change forms.  Humans were the invaders to the world of spren-made-people.  

Also, Soulcasters have weird Radiant spren.  But I propose that they're normal spren that have died, similar to how the Shardblades in tWoK were spren that have died.  Soulcasters associated with a living spren probably are the same different-but-the-same as Sylblade is to Oathbringer.

And this would be why Navani messing with dead Soulcasters is making our mysterious messenger so very angry, in the same way that Kaladin messing with dead Shardblades disgusted Syl. 

Sorry if somebody else already something similar elsewhere!

[Shardsplinter he/him]

39 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Since Brandon has already said, "given enough time, Investiture will gain sentience" (paraphrased), my new pet theory is that Stormlight -> spren -> Parshmen / Parshendi / the Singers are all on one evolutionary line.   Spren are investiture given energy, some form and possibly some sentience.  The Singers are an offshoot of Spren that became more entirely grounded in the Physical realm, either by being trapped here or through slow evolution, but still retaining some of their Spren-like characteristics, like their magic communication, their influence by music and rhythm, and their ability to change forms.  Humans were the invaders to the world of spren-made-people.  

If I were to expect a humanlike Rosharan specie to have "evolved' from spren or to be some form of Investiture sapient entity existing only on the PR it would be Siah Aimians( a lot of speculation has been made regarding their similarity to cognitive beings)

Singers just seem like the normal evolutionary jump to sapience in an exoskeleton-driven sprenbonding-gemheart ecosystem( this is why I alwasys suspected we were the ones that didn't fit in Roshar, not the "Parshendi")

[ScadrianTank he/him]

On 05.09.2020 at 0:35 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Shallan’s last truth seems pretty clear to me: I am Shallan. ‘Shallan’, Veil, Radiant, Formless, are all one person. Singular, unique. Who is cunning and smart, an artist, capable of running cons and using a sword. 

While it sounds great, I don't think that characters with mental issues healing them with magic is good for the Cosmere. If I understand DID correctly, the merging of personalities happens over time, and you can't just go "Oh, I am actually only one person!" one day and have all personas puff away. It also cheapens the experience of the people struggling with these illnesses IRL.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

45 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

While it sounds great, I don't think that characters with mental issues healing them with magic is good for the Cosmere. If I understand DID correctly, the merging of personalities happens over time, and you can't just go "Oh, I am actually only one person!" one day and have all personas puff away. It also cheapens the experience of the people struggling with these illnesses IRL.

That was kind of the point. It’s not magic that heals her. Her Truth is said whenever that merger happens. Speaking the Truth does not heal her and I don’t think she can say it until it IS true to her - which only happens after her identity is whole again, however long that takes.
 

First she undergoes Catharsis and Sublimation to become whole, and then she can say her Truth. The Truth is just a recognition of the reality with benefits. It doesn’t ‘fix’ anything, and I’m not sure why you’d think it would? Nothing we’ve seen indicates that’s the case...

[Potus]

People don't get over the mental health issues in just a year. I would find it very strange if they just continued to get better until they become Mary Sues. It shows that Brandon is committed to a realistic character progression.