Imperial Nomic: The Final Empire

[Illwei]

HOUSE RELIDAN'S Probably Last OFFICIAL CENSUS :(((
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The Lord Ruler
ElectrumSavant 

NOBLE HOUSES
(516) - House Wafre (DoomStick, Danex)
(405) - House Relidan (Illwei): Lord Prelan
(94) - House Hollow (Kings_way)
(96) - House Aot (SirWolfe) 
(65) - House Mist (Mist) Obligator

PENDING PROPOSALS:

House Relidan:
Some Proposals

Edited October 13, 2020 by Illwei

[ElectrumSavant he/him]

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

The Minimum Senate Act: There must be at least three voting members in the senate for a law to be passed (as to avoid two people seconding and passing each other's laws forever)

Approved. This probably won't be an issue unless players start getting negative Atium, but it helps.

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

The High Expectations Act: if anyone in your house has a role, then you are fined double for any infraction, as if you too had a role.

Approved. I'm just going to count this as an Amendment to Rule 402. Note that now that we have an active multi-player House, we may need some more rules to clarify their rules.

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

403- If you call for judgment and the LR finds that the person you are accusing is innocent, you will be fined the same amount that you would be for a rejected Proposal. The standard fine amount.

Approved. Note that the current standard fine amount is 8 Atium.

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

210- Establishing the Obligator: Obligators are chosen by the Lord Ruler, the Senate with a 3/4 vote, or the Lord Prelan, at any time. Obligators can be removed or replaced at any time by the Lord Ruler or the Senate with a 3/4 vote There can be multiple Obligators at once. Obligators do not need to volunteer for the role to be chosen.

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

212- The Consolidation of Power Act: If the High Prelan also has the title of Chancellor, their titles are combined and referred to as the Lord Prelan. This title has no additional powers other than that of its component titles. The Lord Prelan will have the power to Appoint Obligators. The Lord Prelan is not allowed to strip obligators of their rank.

Both are Approved. May I point out that it is part of the law that the Obligator performing a service shall have "no ties" to the Houses involved. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is a violation of that rule for the Lord Prelan to do a bet through an Obligator that they appointed, but if some kind of corruption or cheating goes on in the bet, the Obligator will be considered in violation of the rule and subject to Judgment.

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

005- The Game End Act: The game ends when any player wins or on Tuesday, October 20th, 12:00 UTC

Approved

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

403- The Mistaken Judgement rule

Approved. Strange, I thought we had already named all of the Rules... I guess I missed one.

7 hours ago, Danex said:

We are now house

Iwgahftreejyw

or house Wafreightejyw

or house ightejywafre

Congratulations are in order! I'm intrigued to see where this leads in gameplay.

Edited October 14, 2020 by ElectrumSavant

[Illwei]

I Hereby Appoint Danex to the role of Obligator. Congrats on the promotion Danex!

---

I Call for Judgement on Doomstick in violation of rule 009, not Naming their proposed rules:

"009- The Naming Act: Every rule shall be given a name as well as a number. Names can be simple, but you should be able to infer the general purpose of the rule from the name itself. The Lord Ruler will add names for all current rules (or he can task someone with doing it) and all new rules to be proposed must include a name."

On 9/29/2020 at 10:29 PM, Doomstick said:

I propose that the starting amount of Atium shall be the median of all other active players' balances.

If that passes: I also propose that when an inactive player becomes active again, they can choose to have their balance be equal to the current starting bonus, if they do this they relinquish all titles they may have had

On 9/29/2020 at 10:35 PM, Doomstick said:

I propose that if the High Prelan also has the title of Chancellor, their titles are combined and referred to as the Lord Prelan

I propose that the senate must always have at least two votes to pass a rule change

 

[dannnex male]

4 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I Hereby Appoint Danex to the role of Obligator. Congrats on the promotion Danex!

Wait what.

I feel like I’m being tricked. 

[ElectrumSavant he/him]

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

I Call for Judgement on Doomstick in violation of rule 009, not Naming their proposed rules:

"009- The Naming Act: Every rule shall be given a name as well as a number. Names can be simple, but you should be able to infer the general purpose of the rule from the name itself. The Lord Ruler will add names for all current rules (or he can task someone with doing it) and all new rules to be proposed must include a name."

On 9/30/2020 at 0:29 AM, Doomstick said:

I propose that the starting amount of Atium shall be the median of all other active players' balances.

If that passes: I also propose that when an inactive player becomes active again, they can choose to have their balance be equal to the current starting bonus, if they do this they relinquish all titles they may have had

On 9/30/2020 at 0:35 AM, Doomstick said:

I propose that if the High Prelan also has the title of Chancellor, their titles are combined and referred to as the Lord Prelan

I propose that the senate must always have at least two votes to pass a rule change

Judgment

My judicial reasoning and deliberations are lengthy, and so contained in this spoiler:

Spoiler

This is a very unusual case. The reason that it is unusual is because in the past, when rules were proposed without a name, I caught that and so didn't consider the Rule Changes. For example:

Quote

 

  On 9/3/2020 at 9:34 AM, Kings_way said:

I propose that the Inquisitor be able to resolve calls for judgement, as long as they did not call and are not the accused. They are paid 8 atium for each resolved dispute.

I also propose that the Senate be able to remove or appoint the Inquisitor, the High Prelan, and obligators. To do this, anyone can petition to the senate. If their petition is seconded, the Senate votes. 

These are proposals for new rules. Per Rule 009, they must be given a name in order to be considered.

 

For the disputed rule changes, there are several potential ways that I could rule:

1. Fine House Wafreightejyw the full penalty for not including a name in the proposal, doubled due to Danex being an Obligator. That would be a penalty of 8*2*4= 64 Atium, with Illwei receiving 1/4 of that as a reward for reporting it.
2. Declare that, as the proposals did not have a name when proposed, they were not actually proposals in the legal sense of the word. If this is the case, then I, the Lord Ruler, was in error to consider them in the first case. For my violation of the rules, I would lose 2 Youth per the Rule of Compounding.
3. Declare that, as the proposals have already been accepted and the event in question took place over 2 weeks ago, it is now too late to do anything about the case in question. Essentially a Statute of Limitations. Illwei would be fined 8 Atium as a result.

But that's not all! Because, if either Option 1 or Option 2 is taken, I deal with an additional question: What to do about the rules that were passed?

1. Keep them in place as it is too late to change them, and because the Lord Ruler still officially "Approved" them per Rule 002.
2. Legally speaking, the rules were not legally binding because they were not legally proposed. In this case, the rules in question must be removed from the list of Rules. Importantly, this would include Rule 212, the Consolidation of Power Act, which would in turn mean that Illwei is not actually the Lord Prelan, which would mean Illwei can't appoint Danex as Obligator, which would reduce House Wafreightjyw's Atium by only 32 if Option 1 is being used.

Judgment, for real this time, not just the background of the case

Alright. I am going to answer the second question before the first. (So, I'm answering the green question first). If I were to choose green option 2, I would cast doubt on the entire legislative process of the Final Empire, as I would effectively be saying that some of the rules listed as "In Effect" might not actually be in effect if they were approved under false circumstances. That is, quite frankly, too much work. So I rule in favor of green option 1, that is to say, a Rule that is Approved by the Senate or Lord Ruler and listed in the List of Rules is legally "in effect", and so will not be removed as the result of the proposal being found faulty after the fact.

Now for the big question, the yellow ones. Although it would be convenient, we don't have any rules establishing any kind of Statute of Limitations, so I can't actually choose option 3. So the question is: who is at fault, Doomstick for proposing rules without names, or me for considering the proposals?

As I, the Lord Ruler, did not "make" the proposal, but instead was considering a proposal created by someone else, I am not in violation of Rule 003 or Rule 101. The official terminology for the violated rule, Rule 009, is that "all new rules to be proposed must include a name". As I did not perform the actual proposal, I am also not in violation of this rule. Therefore, the person at fault for violating this rule was Doomstick, as the actual person who proposed the rule change.

In Conclusion, @Doomstick and @Danex of House Wafreightejyw are found guilty and fined a sum of 64 Atium. @Illwei of House Relidan is awarded 1/4 of this amount, 16 Atium, per The Compensation Act. The rules that Doomstick proposed, however, will stay in effect because of Rules 002 and 001, The Liability Act and The Act of Sanity.

Let the executions begin.

[+Doomstick he/him]

I propose the Right of Refusal

If a house is appointed to a title, they must accept or refuse the role before it goes into effect.

I am also proposing the Right of Resignation

Any House may rescind their title, no penalty incurred.

@Kings_way @SirWolfe @Mist I invite you to join House Wafreightejyw

Edited October 14, 2020 by Doomstick

[Mist she/her]

13 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

I propose the Right of Refusal

If a house is appointed to a title, they must accept or refuse the role before it goes into effect.

I am also proposing the Right of Resignation

Any House may rescind their title, no penalty incurred.

@Kings_way @SirWolfe @Mist I invite you to join House Wafreightejyw

I second both. 

I'll join.

We could do bets, since we have obligators.

[Illwei]

1 hour ago, Mist said:

I second both. 

I'll join.

We could do bets, since we have obligators.

I call for judgement on Mist of House Wafre for violation of rule 507:

507- The Act of Union: Players can join another house, adding their Atium totals and making it so if one wins, the other wins. if they want to split back into separate houses later, the Lord Ruler decides how much of their combined Atium each gets. Both players must agree to the House merger, and limits on Mistborn still apply to Houses, not individuals. Each House only gets one vote in the Senate (with additional votes still given for each role in that House). Not all houses may be allied at once, as that would allow all players to achieve victory at once.

They joined House Wafre, and are therefore unable to second the proposal as they have no vote.

I also propose an ammendment to that rule (507): (addition in green, removal in red)

507- The Act of Union: Players can join another house, adding their Atium totals and making it so if one wins, the other wins. if they want to split back into separate houses later, the Lord Ruler decides how much of their combined Atium each gets. Both players must agree to the House merger, and limits on Mistborn still apply to Houses, not individuals. Each House only gets one vote in the Senate (with additional votes still given for each role in that House). and a player may not second a proposal that was proposed by a member of their house.  Not all houses may be allied at once, as that would allow all players to achieve victory at once

Edited October 14, 2020 by Illwei

[+Doomstick he/him]

6 minutes ago, Illwei said:

They joined House Wafre, and are therefore unable to second the proposal as they have no vote

they seconded then joined

[Illwei]

I propose (kind of saw it as already existing)

order of operations act

-if two actions are submitted in the same post, then they are processed at the same time regardless of which was stated first. If two posts are made then they are processed in the order they were posted.

proposal 2 :

the new player loophole act:

To join another house, a player must qualify as "active" and have posted at least once each in the two previous pages. They may choose to join another house as long as they do not start with the new player starting bonus.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Illwei

[+Doomstick he/him]

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

I propose (kind of saw it as already existing)

order of operations act

-if two actions are submitted in the same post, then they are processed at the same time regardless of which was stated first. If two posts are made then they are processed in the order they were posted.

proposal 2 :

the new player loophole act:

To join another house, a player musy qualify as "active" and have posted at least once each in the two previous pages. They may choose to join another house as long as they do not start with the new player starting bonus.

I oppose this second rule, as this rule would exclude any player joining after the rule is passed (if it is)

[Illwei]

3 hours ago, Doomstick said:

I oppose this second rule, as this rule would exclude any player joining after the rule is passed (if it is)

How so? The Rule does not prevent anyone from joining the game, joining a house and proposing. It does not prevent anyone from joining, creating a house, and already having a good amount of money, and proposing rules to earn more.

What it does prevent, is new players or returning players joining, receiving an amount of money, then Immediately joining a house, giving them the win. technically a loophole I found

Ah, I see your point now. Yes, it is targeted at newer players. It is specifically because of ^^ that, sentence above this one. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Illwei

[ElectrumSavant he/him]

2 hours ago, Doomstick said:

I propose the Right of Refusal

If a house is appointed to a title, they must accept or refuse the role before it goes into effect.

Accepted.

2 hours ago, Doomstick said:

I am also proposing the Right of Resignation

Any House may rescind their title, no penalty incurred.

Accepted.

2 hours ago, Mist said:

I'll join.

Congratulations to House... Wafreightejyw-Mist? Is there going to be an official combined house name for your group?

2 hours ago, Mist said:

I second both. 

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

I call for judgement on Mist of House Wafre for violation of rule 507:

507- The Act of Union: Players can join another house, adding their Atium totals and making it so if one wins, the other wins. if they want to split back into separate houses later, the Lord Ruler decides how much of their combined Atium each gets. Both players must agree to the House merger, and limits on Mistborn still apply to Houses, not individuals. Each House only gets one vote in the Senate (with additional votes still given for each role in that House). Not all houses may be allied at once, as that would allow all players to achieve victory at once.

They joined House Wafre, and are therefore unable to second the proposal as they have no vote.

1 hour ago, Doomstick said:

they seconded then joined

Judgment

The official rule for seconding rule changes is found in Rule 302 The Senate Charter, which states that "Any rule change can be seconded by a Noble." What is a Noble, you ask? Very fortunately, the status is clearly defined in Rule 304 The Class Act, which states that "Nobles refers to any House with >=0 Atium". Therefore it is true that under the current rules it is illegal for a player to second a proposal made by someone else in their House.

The issue therefore becomes a question of chronology. Since Mist seconded the proposals before joining House Wafreightejyw (even though it was in the same post), the proposal was successfully seconded. However, because Mist then joined with House Wafreightjyw within that same post, Mist lost the ability to second the proposal and so the proposal was un-seconded. So, Mist seconding the proposal was perfectly legal, but was undone immediately once Mist agreed to join House Wafreightjyw. It's a bit of a non-issue, though, because I approved both of the proposals already.

@Mist of House Wafreightejyw-Mist is found Innocent. Per the Mistaken Judgment Rule, @Illwei of House Relidan is fined 8 Atium.

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

507- The Act of Union: Players can join another house, adding their Atium totals and making it so if one wins, the other wins. if they want to split back into separate houses later, the Lord Ruler decides how much of their combined Atium each gets. Both players must agree to the House merger, and limits on Mistborn still apply to Houses, not individuals. Each House only gets one vote in the Senate (with additional votes still given for each role in that House). and a player may not second a proposal that was proposed by a member of their house.  Not all houses may be allied at once, as that would allow all players to achieve victory at once

Approved.

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

order of operations act

-if two actions are submitted in the same post, then they are processed at the same time regardless of which was stated first. If two posts are made then they are processed in the order they were posted.

Rejected. I personally have considered actions to be processed in the order that they appear top to bottom, and think that it is more convenient from a perspective of re-reading for Judgment.

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

the new player loophole act:

To join another house, a player musy qualify as "active" and have posted at least once each in the two previous pages. They may choose to join another house as long as they do not start with the new player starting bonus.

Approved. Having read through @Doomstick and @Illwei's arguments, I do think that it is fair to require new players to choose between the (increasingly substantial) starting bonus or to join one of the existing Houses. I may rewrite this rule for clarity, however.

[Illwei]

Proposals

The Rule of Edits : If a player edits a post, then they must include in the "reason for Edit" why they did so.

The Rule of Disappearing posts : Posts may not be deleted unless ruled otherwise by TLR.

The Rule of Throwing the Game (? Running out of naming Ideas.) : Houses may not Loan or give more than 50% of their Atium to the same house per page. (not applied to bets) (This is to prevent Houses for some reason trying to give all their money away to one house.)

The Rule of Very Specific Cheaty Cheaters : If a player leaves the game, leaving all of their Atium to House [X], and they choose to rejoin the game within the next Page turn, they will not be allowed to give/loan Atium to House [x] for two page turns. (Not applied to any Bets)

This is me trying to prevent people from taking advantage of loopholes I have found. House igthtejyw, I was kinda hoping you would think of some of this since you're trying to hack it :P.

Originally tried to make these as an ammendment to the Gambling and services act, but I couldn't figure out how to phrase it...

Amendments

501- The Gambling and Services Act: Transactions of Atium between any two people Houses are allowed. The bets can be about anything, but pay off in Atium. Bets should be public, and players Houses can't bet more Atium than they have.  A service provided can also paid for in Atium. Additionally, this rule does not discriminate against the Lord Ruler. 

[Experience he/him]

I will join as House Drab.

I was invited by House Drab. 

Proposal:

The Rule of Too Much Importance: If you become The Lord Ruler, any propositions that you had previously made that had not yet been approved or denied would be considered void. (So you can’t propose something, then become The Lord Ruler and accept it). 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Experience

[+Doomstick he/him]

2 hours ago, Illwei said:

501- The Gambling and Services Act: Transactions of Atium between any two people Houses are allowed. The bets can be about anything, but pay off in Atium. Bets should be public, and players Houses can't bet more Atium than they have.  A service provided can also paid for in Atium. Additionally, this rule does not discriminate against the Lord Ruler. 

this. is a clarification, not an amendment

I propose the Rule of Peanut Butter

if a proposal is accepted and then found to be breaking a rule, no action may be taken against the original proposer. (Peanut Butter from the card game BS where players can choose to say "peanut butter" (or something else, but i've mostly heard peanut butter) to signify that they were lying after they are safe)

2 hours ago, Illwei said:

The Rule of Edits : If a player edits a post, then they must include in the "reason for Edit" why they did so.

what is the point to this?

Edited October 15, 2020 by Doomstick

[ElectrumSavant he/him]

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

The Rule of Edits : If a player edits a post, then they must include in the "reason for Edit" why they did so.

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

The Rule of Disappearing posts : Posts may not be deleted unless ruled otherwise by TLR.

These are both Approved. This will make Judgment far easier...

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

The Rule of Throwing the Game (? Running out of naming Ideas.) : Houses may not Loan or give more than 50% of their Atium to the same house per page. (not applied to bets) (This is to prevent Houses for some reason trying to give all their money away to one house.)

Approved.

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

The Rule of Very Specific Cheaty Cheaters : If a player leaves the game, leaving all of their Atium to House [X], and they choose to rejoin the game within the next Page turn, they will not be allowed to give/loan Atium to House [x] for two page turns. (Not applied to any Bets)

Doesn't the Rule of Throwing the Game (just approved now) make it impossible for someone to leave "all of their Atium" to another House? Is this proposal still Pending?

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

501- The Gambling and Services Act: Transactions of Atium between any two people Houses are allowed. The bets can be about anything, but pay off in Atium. Bets should be public, and players Houses can't bet more Atium than they have.  A service provided can also paid for in Atium. Additionally, this rule does not discriminate against the Lord Ruler. 

48 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

this. is a clarification, not an amendment

Approved. However, I think that Doomstick is right that this is a clarification, not an amendment. With some Rules changing "people" to "Houses" would be a serious change, but in this case it makes no difference (since Houses can't give themselves their money)

1 hour ago, Experience said:

I will join as House Drab.

I was invited by House Drab. 

Welcome aboard, @Experience of House Drab! Unfortunately, according to Rule 505 The Invitation Act you can't invite yourself, so you don't get that starting 20 Atium for being invited. But you do have the choice of getting a starting Atium equal to the median of everyone's current Atium (which is considerably higher than 20 Atium). If you go with the starting Atium, you can't join another person's House for two pages.

As a new player, though, I should warn you that this thread has an expiration date: October 20. At noon UTC of that day, the Final Empire ends and whoever has the most Atium is the winner. Don't worry, though; it looks like there will be a sequel thread.

1 hour ago, Experience said:

The Rule of Too Much Importance: If you become The Lord Ruler, any propositions that you had previously made that had not yet been approved or denied would be considered void. (So you can’t propose something, then become The Lord Ruler and accept it). 

Approved.

48 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

I propose the Rule of Peanut Butter

if a proposal is accepted and then found to be breaking a rule, no action may be taken against the original proposer.

Approved. Specifically, this means that if a proposal was proposed that was lacking something legally necessary for a proposal to have (such as a name) but was still approved by the Lord Ruler or Senate, at that point it is too late to bring the proposer of the law to trial and the rule change is still in effect.

[Illwei]

8 minutes ago, ElectrumSavant said:

Doesn't the Rule of Throwing the Game (just approved now) make it impossible for someone to leave "all of their Atium" to another House? Is this proposal still Pending?

So, people can leave their Atium to other houses when they exit the game. This prevents the loophole of someone leaving all their atium to a house and leaving the game, then rejoining with a lot of Atium, and then immediately leaving, leaving all of their Atium with said house.

If I need to rewrite to rule for clarification I can try...but the other rule only applies to loans and things. I guess I can try and combine them...they were pretty specific loopholes I was trying to prevent :P.

EDIT: are rule names 5 or 10 atium per peice? 5, right?

Edited October 15, 2020 by Illwei
Clarification on Atium amounts I forgot about

[Experience he/him]

4 minutes ago, ElectrumSavant said:

Welcome aboard, @Experience of House Drab! Unfortunately, according to Rule 505 The Invitation Act you can't invite yourself, so you don't get that starting 20 Atium for being invited. But you do have the choice of getting a starting Atium equal to the median of everyone's current Atium (which is considerably higher than 20 Atium). If you go with the starting Atium, you can't join another person's House for two pages.

As a new player, though, I should warn you that this thread has an expiration date: October 20. At noon UTC of that day, the Final Empire ends and whoever has the most Atium is the winner. Don't worry, though; it looks like there will be a sequel thread.

It was worth a try.  

Ya, I saw that. I still have a chance-ish.

Proposals:

The Rule of Generosity: Every time a new page starts, a House is randomly chosen (cannot be the house with the most atium). That house is awarded 20 atium by TLR because he's feeling nice.

[Illwei]

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

Ya, I saw that. I still have a chance-ish.

So you're requesting the Median amount of money....?

Edited October 15, 2020 by Illwei
The qwote had some wierd spacing i had to fix

[Experience he/him]

Just now, Illwei said:

So you're requesting the Median amount of money....?

Oh, ya. I didn't realize I had to formally request it. I request the Median amount of atium. 

[ElectrumSavant he/him]

On 9/10/2020 at 10:53 AM, Matrim's Dice said:

"I, House Ethorris, declare that I permanently and irrevocably have chosen to Withdraw from the game, with full understanding that House Ethorris's atium reserves shall be wiped, and any attempt at rejoining will be treated as forming a new House without any prior activity in the game."

I also gift my atuim to Doomstick.

@Illwei there has only been one time when someone officially Withdrew (see above), and in that circumstance, he gave all of his Atium at the same time. But it isn't actually baked into the Withdrawal Act; it was a separate action. Since the Rule of Throwing the Game applies to both gifts and loans, this is covered by the law.

9 minutes ago, Illwei said:

EDIT: are rule names 5 or 10 atium per peice? 5, right?

After a quick search, it looks like clarifications are worth 10 Atium apiece.

4 minutes ago, Experience said:

The Rule of Generosity: Every time a new page starts, a House is randomly chosen (cannot be the house with the most atium). That house is awarded 20 atium by TLR because he's feeling nice.

Approved. I'll use Random.org.

[Experience he/him]

Is there some special rule for changing the name of a rule? If not I think it would be better to change the name of the Rule of Too Much Importance to the Rule of Promotion.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Experience

[Illwei]

14 minutes ago, ElectrumSavant said:

Approved. I'll use Random.org.

Ah, yes, otherwise known as Matrim's favorite way to cast SE votes... ...

Anyways, someone post once so I can update the Atium balances. Prefferably @ElectrumSavant so he can tell me if I can just RNG it. vvv

I propose an Amendment that The Lord Prelan can RNG the rule of generosity for the Sake of accuracy on the Census. I swear the Lord Prelan is trustworthy even though they're not completely impartial, they are, because it doesn't matter to them which house gets the Atium. 20 Atium is pocket change. a...a lot of pocket change...but... pocket change nonetheless

Please I really want to include an accurate census :(( 

Anyways doesn't matter just someone post. pls. but only 1 person so the census can be at the top and useful? idk. anyways- :P.

 

[+Doomstick he/him]

haha, no census at the top of the page for you!