Hoid the Former Drifter he/him Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 "Dead, but alive," Kelsier said. "Like me?" "No." "Then what?" "Died, but did not." ...Uh, what is that supposed to mean? 1
+Zodiac he/him Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 Cosmere spoilers Spoiler The IRE are Elantrians
Hoidolasium he/him Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 The middle form of the Shaod (the weak and balding part) is pretty much death, as far as anyone is concerned.
Chinkoln he/him Posted August 2, 2020 Posted August 2, 2020 Spoiler They are Elantrians. In AonDor, Ire means Age/Agelessness.
Hoid the Former Drifter he/him Posted August 5, 2020 Author Posted August 5, 2020 On 7/27/2020 at 4:45 PM, Zodiac said: Cosmere spoilers Reveal hidden contents The IRE are Elantrians I figured. They have silvery skin and they glow and the stones of their building glow. I was kind of wondering about that detail.
Hoid the Former Drifter he/him Posted August 5, 2020 Author Posted August 5, 2020 On 7/28/2020 at 4:13 PM, Hoidolasium said: The middle form of the Shaod (the weak and balding part) is pretty much death, as far as anyone is concerned. They're past the Shaod, though!
Honorless he/him Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 The Elantrians are biologically... weird. They aren't Cognitive Shadows but they seem to be sustained by Investiture.
StanLemon Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 I think that they are much like the Returned. Cognitive Shadows stapled to a body, but in a different way and being constantly fueled by the Dor. The Shaod is described as an incomplete transformation but even if it was incomplete why would they be dead like.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 5 hours ago, StanLemon said: I think that they are much like the Returned. Cognitive Shadows stapled to a body, but in a different way and being constantly fueled by the Dor. The Shaod is described as an incomplete transformation but even if it was incomplete why would they be dead like. They are not Shadows. Brandon said this at one point. If they go to far from Elantris they revert to normal humans, I believe, which is probably why they need to constantly replenish themselves.
StanLemon Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: They are not Shadows. Brandon said this at one point. If they go to far from Elantris they revert to normal humans, I believe, which is probably why they need to constantly replenish themselves. I'm assuming you are referring to this WoB where he says they aren't because they didn't technically die. Quote Khyrindor You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. linkhyrule5 Huh. ... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? Brandon Sanderson No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. However, in this same WoB he goes on to define the in world categorization by definition is that it's someone who has died and who's mind has been "fossilized" by Investiture. But that theory even in universe is argued against because it implies that the soul has already departed. From our in-character perspectives of Kelsier and Wax, the soul already departing aspect seems...incorrect. At least in my opinion My argument is just because they haven't died doesn't mean they aren't effectively the same thing. The members of the Ire need to regularly consume Investiture, same as a Returned. Even away from Elantris, Elantrians are still Elantrians just that the visible signs lesson because of the distance from the source of power. And the Reod is discribed as mid transformation and Brandon repeatedly says that the Reod is a half alive state. So while they aren't technically Shadows, they are the same order of being Edited February 16, 2021 by StanLemon 1
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 21 minutes ago, StanLemon said: I'm assuming you are referring to this WoB where he says they aren't because they didn't technically die. However, in this same WoB he goes on to define the in world categorization by definition is that it's someone who has died and who's mind has been "fossilized" by Investiture. But that theory even in universe is argued against because it implies that the soul has already departed. From our in-character perspectives of Kelsier and Wax, the soul already departing aspect seems...incorrect. At least in my opinion My argument is just because they haven't died doesn't mean they aren't effectively the same thing. The members of the Ire need to regularly consume Investiture, same as a Returned. Even away from Elantris, Elantrians are still Elantrians just that the visible signs lesson because of the distance from the source of power. And the Reod is discribed as mid transformation and Brandon repeatedly says that the Reod is a half alive state. So while they aren't technically Shadows, they are the same order of being Yes, but in other places he uses the term to refer to anyone who fully dies and then sticks around. Which is what he is specifically saying Elantrians aren’t. They also revert to regular humans away from Elantris, I believe. I think this was mentioned somewhere. Wax is not a CS. He was resuscitated.
StanLemon Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) I broke this up to emphasize points. 7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Yes, but in other places he uses the term to refer to anyone who fully dies and then sticks around. Which is what he is specifically saying Elantrians aren’t. Quote Wax is not a CS. He was resuscitated. This is the issue, which is why Brandon often defaults to the in world belief rather than out and out saying it as the author. Just because Wax was resuscitated he still died and went to the Cognitive what makes him any less a Shadow than say Vasher or Kelsier now that he has a body? Returned require Breaths (or Stormlight), Kelsier presumably needs the Hemalurgic spike, and Elantrians need Investiture considering what we saw with the Ire Quote They also revert to regular humans away from Elantris, I believe. I think this was mentioned somewhere. Except they don't, they're still Elantrians. (part of a larger WoB) Quote Yourigath If an Elantrian worldhops does it returns to a normal human pre-Shaod state? If this Elantrian goes back to Sel it recovers his Elantrian powers or he keeps his pre-Shaod form? Brandon Sanderson An Elantrian away from Sel would still be an Elantrian--but many of the visible signs would fade away, much like something florescent that stops glowing when moved away from a Black Light Edited February 16, 2021 by StanLemon 1
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 34 minutes ago, StanLemon said: I broke this up to emphasize points. This is the issue, which is why Brandon often defaults to the in world belief rather than out and out saying it as the author. Just because Wax was resuscitated he still died and went to the Cognitive what makes him any less a Shadow than say Vasher or Kelsier now that he has a body? Returned require Breaths (or Stormlight), Kelsier presumably needs the Hemalurgic spike, and Elantrians need Investiture considering what we saw with the Ire Except they don't, they're still Elantrians. (part of a larger WoB) Ah, thanks. I knew I was remembering something but couldn’t recall exactly what. Wax didn’t have his ties to the Physical Realm severed at any point. Cognitive Shadows did. That seems to be the difference. Elantrians do not appear to have had that Connection severed either, which is why they aren’t Shadows.
StanLemon Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Ah, thanks. I knew I was remembering something but couldn’t recall exactly what. Wax didn’t have his ties to the Physical Realm severed at any point. Cognitive Shadows did. That seems to be the difference. Elantrians do not appear to have had that Connection severed either, which is why they aren’t Shadows. Which is why I think that it's all really semantics and that Elantrians are effectively the same oder of beings as Returned. After all, they have far more in common with Returned than they do regular humans. Based on observations the only real difference between a Cognitive Shadow and an Elantrian is that they had their Physical Connection cut. But as is evident with Returned and Kelsier it is fully possible to Connect yourself back up to the Physical Realm and Elantrians do appear to require a Investiture to fuel themselves and remain alive
mathiau he/him Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 (edited) On 02/08/2020 at 11:13 PM, Chinkoln said: Reveal hidden contents They are Elantrians. In AonDor, Ire means Age/Agelessness. Spoiler Time/Age to be exact 15 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Which is why I think that it's all really semantics and that Elantrians are effectively the same oder of beings as Returned. After all, they have far more in common with Returned than they do regular humans. Based on observations the only real difference between a Cognitive Shadow and an Elantrian is that they had their Physical Connection cut. But as is evident with Returned and Kelsier it is fully possible to Connect yourself back up to the Physical Realm and Elantrians do appear to require a Investiture to fuel themselves and remain alive Since Warbreaker's story was intended as a mirror of Elantris's one it'd make sense Elantrians are the opposite of Return yet similar by horseshoe effect Also, to me, Elantrians seems as much similar to regular high-heightening Awakeners as they do to Returned Edited February 17, 2021 by mathiau
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Which is why I think that it's all really semantics and that Elantrians are effectively the same oder of beings as Returned. After all, they have far more in common with Returned than they do regular humans. Based on observations the only real difference between a Cognitive Shadow and an Elantrian is that they had their Physical Connection cut. But as is evident with Returned and Kelsier it is fully possible to Connect yourself back up to the Physical Realm and Elantrians do appear to require a Investiture to fuel themselves and remain alive CS’ don’t get fully reattached though. They just fake it really well. They’re ‘stapled on’ by some method (specifics vary). They don’t age, while Elantrians do (albeit quite slowly). Shadows in bodies do not die of natural causes (aside from being ‘killed’). Elantrians can die of illness. Shadows’ are also shapeshifters and cannot have children normally, while Elantrians can. A Shadow’s child will have some oddities, such as mild shapeshifting. An Elantrians child will be human (assuming both parents are human). And if a CS’ body dies, they still remain a Shadow. Elantrians would have to become a Shadow to remain after their Physical ties are cut. TLDR; CS’ are Cognitive Beings. Elantrians are Physical ones. There is a way to reverse the Shaod entirely, which is not the case for Shadows: Chris King Is there a way to reverse the Shaod? Brandon Sanderson Um-- *pause* There is a way to do basically anything. Chris King So it's kind of a RAFO? Will we ever find-- Brandon Sanderson No that's not what they asked, they asked if there is a way. Yes there is but how reasonable a way that is is very... vague...
+Oltux72 he/him Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 On 27.7.2020 at 11:11 PM, Hoid the Drifter said: "Dead, but alive," Kelsier said. "Like me?" "No." "Then what?" "Died, but did not." ...Uh, what is that supposed to mean? (Sel) Spoiler Elantris has a shard pool that Elantrians weiry of life dissolve themselves into, as they think of it. They are likely to appear in the Cognitive Realm. If they survive Sel's CR apparently the Ire makes them an offer.
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