Speculation on the sibling and unmade

[Darontal]

Storm father is the piece of Honor

Nightwatch is the piece of Cultivation

Unmade were made and then unmade and the sibling is "sleeping."  What if the unmade were splinters of Odium like the Shards are splinters of Adonalsium?  Kinda like an evil Voltron.  That would be why the Stormfather doesn't want them to wake the sibling.  If those 10 pieces of Odium get together they would be a powerful manifestation of his will on Roshar

[Darkfinder]

There are only 9 unmade.

The unmade being splinters of odium is confirmed I think.

WeiryWriter

Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good guess

Edited July 19, 2020 by Darkfinder
Found WoB

[Koloss17]

My brother thought that that was likely the case. I feel that it would be a bit strange, because it would make sense for honor, but not odium. Odium’s shard number is ten, like some other shard’s number

mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Preservation’s is 16

Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

Endowment’s is 5

I think that each shard has their own number, so a splinter of odium making the tenth unmade would make sense for honor, but not odium. Also a splinter of odium that bonds with one of honor’s radiants doesn’t make too much sense.

but we have seen an unmade side with a radiant before, so it might make sense.

i think it fits some patterns but breaks others.

[+Bzhydack]

For all we know, Odium number will be 9, not 10. For example, he Has 9 Fused orders, he also Has 9 Surges. We also know about all 9 Unmade. They are:

1. Ba-Ado-Mishram

2. Ashertmarn

3. Nergaoul

4. Modelach

5. Sia-Anat

6. Yelig-Nar

7. Re-Sephir

8. Dai-Gonarthis

9. Chemoarich

And we saw 6 od them, hear about 2, only the last one is mistery.

And this is popular theory, but we have WoB that It is false. I don't have Time to search now, but maybe someone will.

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Bzhydack

[Honorless]

Currently the theory is that the Sibling is of both Honor and Cultivation. 

[SteelShaper]

On 7/17/2020 at 7:02 AM, Darkfinder said:

The unmade being splinters of sodium is confirmed I think.

If only they really were made of sodium, then we could just throw water on them and they'd burn up. #badchemistryjoke

But Darkfinder is right, it's confirmed that there are only 9 Unmade. 

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, SteelShaper said:

If only they really were made of sodium, then we could just throw water on them and they'd burn up. #badchemistryjoke

*visible groaning*

[Koloss17]

52 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

*visible groaning*

Just what is expected from a pun. @SteelShaper, you have succeeded. 

[SteelShaper]

5 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Just what is expected from a pun. @SteelShaper, you have succeeded. 

@Koloss17, it's my pleasure *bows*

If someone isn't cringing at your pun, then you're obviously not trying hard enough

[Koloss17]

8 hours ago, SteelShaper said:

@Koloss17, it's my pleasure *bows*

If someone isn't cringing at your pun, then you're obviously not trying hard enough

Exactly.

[Azarias]

On 17/07/2020 at 2:35 PM, Bzhydack said:

For all we know, Odium number will be 9, not 10. For example, he Has 9 Fused orders, he also Has 9 Surges. We also know about all 9 Unmade. They are:

1. Ba-Ado-Mishram

2. Ashertmarn

3. Nergaoul

4. Modelach

5. Sia-Anat

6. Yelig-Nar

7. Re-Sephir

8. Dai-Gonarthis

9. Chemoarich

And we saw 6 od them, hear about 2, only the last one is mistery.

And this is popular theory, but we have WoB that It is false. I don't have Time to search now, but maybe someone will.

 

I may be wrong, but aren't there 10 orders of voidbinding- the voidbinding chart, at least, seems to show this, which could suggest that odium's number is also ten.

My theory is that the reason why there are only nine unmade is that they came from 10 other spren, of which odium corrupted or 'unmade' nine- he probably didn't choose to leave out the tenth, I imagine he was prevented. The question remains- what were they originally?

On 17/07/2020 at 0:56 PM, Darontal said:

Storm father is the piece of Honor

Nightwatch is the piece of Cultivation

Unmade were made and then unmade and the sibling is "sleeping."  What if the unmade were splinters of Odium like the Shards are splinters of Adonalsium?  Kinda like an evil Voltron.  That would be why the Stormfather doesn't want them to wake the sibling.  If those 10 pieces of Odium get together they would be a powerful manifestation of his will on Roshar

Contrary to what @Darontal said, I doubt the unmade are the same as the sibling, as we know (I think, someone tell me if that is just speculation) that the sibling is the third spren that can make a bondsmith, the spren of Urithiru. Therefore, the unmade being the same as the sibling is unlikely, not only because that would mean one of the bondsmiths bonds with a spren of odium, but also because then we would have 12 spren capable of bonding with bondsmiths (the stormfather, nightwatcher, sibling, and the nine unmade), when we know that there can only ever be three bonsmiths at once.

I think that, perhaps, the unmade were originally the dawnshards. Link to where this theory is discussed: 

Despite that sidetrack, I think that the sibling must be something different from the unmade

Edited July 20, 2020 by Azarias

[+Bzhydack]

55 minutes ago, Azarias said:

I may be wrong, but aren't there 10 orders of voidbinding- the voidbinding chart, at least, seems to show this, which could suggest that odium's number is also ten.

It was 9 Orders of Fused. Oathbringer, start of Chapter 121. They dont have Bondsmiths eqivalent.

[Azarias]

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

It was 9 Orders of Fused. Oathbringer, start of Chapter 121. They dont have Bondsmiths eqivalent.

While there are 9 orders of fused- its not confirmed that they were using voidbinding. The voidbinding chart (attatched) shows ten different orders, equivalent to the 10 orders of knights radiant 

 

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, Azarias said:

While there are 9 orders of fused- its not confirmed that they were using voidbinding. The voidbinding chart (attatched) shows ten different orders, equivalent to the 10 orders of knights radiant 

If they are not using voidbinding, what they are using? Voidbinding is Odium power, now you just tell that Cognitiwe Shadows created by Odium are not using Odium Power - what doesnt make sence.

Also, 10 is number of Honor. 10 is also number of Rosharan System.

[Azarias]

18 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

If they are not using voidbinding, what they are using? Voidbinding is Odium power, now you just tell that Cognitiwe Shadows created by Odium are not using Odium Power - what doesnt make sence.

Also, 10 is number of Honor. 10 is also number of Rosharan System.

I'm new here, so I'm sorry if there's some sort of online consensus about this, but the coppermind says:

The abilities demonstrated by the Fused have so far been typical of Surgebinding, but it may be that their powers may be related to, or be a manifestation of, Voidbinding, or "Voidish Surges". It is currently unknown what system the abilities they have demonstrated fall under, and they might even belong to a yet unnamed system. If the observed abilities are not Voidbinding, it is possible the Fused might still have access to the system.

It also says:

The only ability currently confirmed to be related to Voidbinding is Renarin's ability to see the future. Though it is not known precisely how they are related, the Voidbinding chart was referenced as part of the confirmation.

While I agree that the powers of the fused are linked to odium's power, I think that it is more likely that it is odium 'hacking' or gaining use of surgebinding, rather than a completely separate magic system. I think that voidbinding might have more to do with Renarin's abilities, and perhaps the voidspren. 

[+Bzhydack]

14 minutes ago, Azarias said:

While I agree that the powers of the fused are linked to odium's power, I think that it is more likely that it is odium 'hacking' or gaining use of surgebinding, rather than a completely separate magic system. I think that voidbinding might have more to do with Renarin's abilities, and perhaps the voidspren. 

Thing is, they are granted by Voidspren. We know from Songs that in the past Forms of Power and Fused was all granted by Odium and see as Voidbinding. Roshar seems to have main Magic System, very similar to use no matter witch Shard is source of Investiture. We see this even with Parshendi, when they Bond with different Spren (Voidspren or lesser Spren) in the same way. Even Unmade works similar - for example, Yelig-Nar simply granted Surges to the Host.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Bzhydack

[agrabes]

Something I think is important is that you need to take the charts printed in the books with a grain of salt.  They are confirmed to be representations of in world knowledge, which may not be accurate to the "true" way things work.  We know the human scholars think that everything is based on a system of 10, which is why they would make a chart with 10 things on it for Voidbinding.  But, if you look at the number of Unmade, we know there are 9.  So, we have at least one point of evidence that Odium bases his systems on the number 9.  There's a good chance the Voidbinding chart is wrong or inaccurate.

 

Quote

Argent

Recently, somebody came up with a very clever theory about the meaning of The Way of Kings endsheet, and I liked it very much. I suspect you want to keep most of that a secret, but maybe you can answer this also vague question - is there another chart, in-world, similar to the ones on frontsheet and endsheet, that we haven't seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm afraid that the first one is RAFO territory. Let me point out that most charts in Cosmere books are human attempts at understanding the world. There are fundamental principles to them, but also human groupings and perspectives worked in.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Sept. 29, 2016)

 

On 7/17/2020 at 6:56 AM, Darontal said:

Storm father is the piece of Honor

Nightwatch is the piece of Cultivation

Unmade were made and then unmade and the sibling is "sleeping."  What if the unmade were splinters of Odium like the Shards are splinters of Adonalsium?  Kinda like an evil Voltron.  That would be why the Stormfather doesn't want them to wake the sibling.  If those 10 pieces of Odium get together they would be a powerful manifestation of his will on Roshar

Could you clarify what you mean here?  What is the reason the Stormfather doesn't want the Sibling woken up?  Are you arguing that the Sibling is actually the Unmade?

[Azarias]

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Thing is, they are granted by Voidspren. We know from Songs that in the past Forms of Power and Fused was all granted by Odium and see as Voidbinding. Roshar seems to have main Magic System, very similar to use no matter witch Shard is source of Investiture. We see this even with Parshendi, when they Bond with different Spren (Voidspren or lesser Spren) in the same way. Even Unmade works similar - for example, Yelig-Nar simply granted Surges to the Host.

I don't have a direct quote for this, but I am fairly sure we have WoB saying that there are 3 (or thirty) different magic systems on roshar, depending on how you look at it- surgebinding, voidbinding and fabrials. The two we know most about- surgebinding and fabrials- are very different, and so we could speculate that voidbinding will be equally different from both (with the obvious connections- such as spren and gems). Moreover, the thirty magic systems that he said there were can be divided up into 3 magic systems with ten parts (1o being roshar's number as you have already said). 10 orders of surgebinding and voidbinding (as shown by the charts), and we can then assume 10 types of fabrials. 

[Azarias]

Quantumplation (paraphrased)

I haven't read Way of Kings yet, but I've read Warbreaker and Mistborn, and the thing I like most about them is the Magic systems.  Will Way of Kings have multiple magic systems?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Depending on how you count it, Stormlight Archive will have 3 or 30 different magic systems.

Footnote: Part of me wants to say he said "3, 10, or 30 different magic systems", but I can't remember for sure.
Towers of Midnight Cambridge signing (Nov. 7, 2010)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

6 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Something I think is important is that you need to take the charts printed in the books with a grain of salt.  They are confirmed to be representations of in world knowledge, which may not be accurate to the "true" way things work.  We know the human scholars think that everything is based on a system of 10, which is why they would make a chart with 10 things on it for Voidbinding.  But, if you look at the number of Unmade, we know there are 9.  So, we have at least one point of evidence that Odium bases his systems on the number 9.  There's a good chance the Voidbinding chart is wrong or inaccurate.

Maybe there are some inaccuracies, but my interpretation of what is said here seems to suggest that there are indeed 10 forms of voidbinding, and it is accurate in that respect

[+Bzhydack]

3 minutes ago, Azarias said:

I don't have a direct quote for this, but I am fairly sure we have WoB saying that there are 3 (or thirty) different magic systems on roshar, depending on how you look at it- surgebinding, voidbinding and fabrials. The two we know most about- surgebinding and fabrials- are very different, and so we could speculate that voidbinding will be equally different from both (with the obvious connections- such as spren and gems). Moreover, the thirty magic systems that he said there were can be divided up into 3 magic systems with ten parts (1o being roshar's number as you have already said). 10 orders of surgebinding and voidbinding (as shown by the charts), and we can then assume 10 types of fabrials. 

Maybe Surge Fabrials are 10, but other Fabrials are not. Is much more. The other magic system will be Old Magic - and this is not 10based at all, but binar.

5 minutes ago, Azarias said:

Maybe there are some inaccuracies, but my interpretation of what is said here seems to suggest that there are indeed 10 forms of voidbinding, and it is accurate in that respect

Sugesstion... We have conformation from Oathbringer that is 9 forms. We even clearly know witch Order dont have equivalent.

BTW, futuresight can be granted not only by Odium. We know that every Shard has it, and can grant to his Investiture users. We also know that Cultivation is very good at it, so it is possible  that Cultivation-related spren can give this ability. For Truthwachers, more specificly.

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, Azarias said:

Maybe there are some inaccuracies, but my interpretation of what is said here seems to suggest that there are indeed 10 forms of voidbinding, and it is accurate in that respect

They say 10 levels of voidbinding in the ars arcanum so you may be right.  Perhaps there are ten but Odium blocks his followers from using one?

Edited July 20, 2020 by Karger

[agrabes]

5 minutes ago, Azarias said:

Quantumplation (paraphrased)

I haven't read Way of Kings yet, but I've read Warbreaker and Mistborn, and the thing I like most about them is the Magic systems.  Will Way of Kings have multiple magic systems?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Depending on how you count it, Stormlight Archive will have 3 or 30 different magic systems.

Footnote: Part of me wants to say he said "3, 10, or 30 different magic systems", but I can't remember for sure.
Towers of Midnight Cambridge signing (Nov. 7, 2010)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Maybe there are some inaccuracies, but my interpretation of what is said here seems to suggest that there are indeed 10 forms of voidbinding, and it is accurate in that respect

Yeah - could be that there are 10 forms of voidbinding.  But, I don't think it's certain.  That's a pretty old quote.  He's said additional things since then that kind of indicate the 30 number may be outdated.  For example, he's said that the number 9 is tied to Braize the same way that 10 is tied to Roshar.  It could easily be that he just threw out the concept of 3/10/30 as a high level concept and maybe his original vision 10 years ago, but it may not be the final plan.  That statement would require 10 surgebinding types, 10 voidbinding types, and 10 fabrial types.  Like - is it likely there are 10 forms of fabrials?  I don't know that it's all that likely.  Maybe, but it doesn't seem to fit with what we know about fabrials.  I think more recent and specific information he's put out implies there are probably 9 forms of voidbinding.  

[Azarias]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yeah - could be that there are 10 forms of voidbinding.  But, I don't think it's certain.  That's a pretty old quote.  He's said additional things since then that kind of indicate the 30 number may be outdated.  For example, he's said that the number 9 is tied to Braize the same way that 10 is tied to Roshar.  It could easily be that he just threw out the concept of 3/10/30 as a high level concept and maybe his original vision 10 years ago, but it may not be the final plan.  That statement would require 10 surgebinding types, 10 voidbinding types, and 10 fabrial types.  Like - is it likely there are 10 forms of fabrials?  I don't know that it's all that likely.  Maybe, but it doesn't seem to fit with what we know about fabrials.  I think more recent and specific information he's put out implies there are probably 9 forms of voidbinding.  

Fair enough- I was just going off the information I had seen, but if there is something more recent that says otherwise I can accept that. Btw- I too questioned the 10 fabrials- to be it seems like we will see a lot more that 10

[Hoid the Former Drifter]

If the Fused can use the same powers as surgebinding, It probably is voidbinding. Odds are that Odium's spren is the tenth voidbinding order. (Just like the stormfather, aka honor's splinter, is Dalinar's spren.)