Industrial Revolution

[TheWadehart]

On dear ol' mother Earth, the invention of the steam engine kicked off the industrial revolution.  So I had two questions. 

Does the existence of modern fabrials and the exploration thereof constitute the beginning of the Rosharan industrial revolution in and of itself or do they need to create a motor/engine? 

If they need to create a motor/engine what form would it take?  Would it be entirely some form of fabrial?  OR would it be a hybrid of physics and investiture (say a steam engine with the water heated by a heating fabrial) or something else entirely?  If you were the fabrial engineer how would YOU do it?

 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, TheWadehart said:

Does the existence of modern fabrials and the exploration thereof constitute the beginning of the Rosharan industrial revolution in and of itself or do they need to create a motor/engine? 

To your first point I have an entire topic on this. 

In summary I would say no.  Some kind of pump that can be produced cheaply and easily used (so probably not a fabrial) would get you started but it would take time before you got anything like industrialization. 

The other option is to get really really good at agriculture so you can raise a massive surplus of gemstones and make fabrails cheaply and easily in which case you bypass the need for an engine entirely.

1 hour ago, TheWadehart said:

If they need to create a motor/engine what form would it take?  Would it be entirely some form of fabrial?  OR would it be a hybrid of physics and investiture (say a steam engine with the water heated by a heating fabrial) or something else entirely?  If you were the fabrial engineer how would YOU do it?

Given unlimited gemstones to work with I would probably just use conjoined fabrials that automatically turn off and on at regular intervals.  Heating water is actually a really inefficient way of turning heat into mechanical energy.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Karger

[PiedPiper]

I think it could be argued that Navani's floating platforms, the heating fabrial, or the painrial could all qualify as sufficiently advanced technology to have kicked off the Rosharan Industrial Revolution. However, I'd say that Alethkar and Jah Keved are still in medieval times (or whatever the Rosharan equivalent is), because one of the hallmarks of said revolutions was advancement in technology outside of warfare. Inventions such as the steam engine, the spinning jenny, and the assembly line all were geared toward economic advancement, wheras all the inventions before then (gunpowder, seafaring technology, etc.) were made for exploration and conquest. When fabriologists start making gem-powered plows, and engineers start designing with iron and steel rather than wood and shalebark, I'd consider their industrial revolution underway. (Spanreeds were a huge step toward this, but could not constitute an entire movement alone.)

You could estimate that Azir, even though they have a republic rather than a monarch, is also still medieval based on the chapters in Oathbringer where Dalinar visits and the Viziers mention that their craftsmen were angry about having to till the fields. This gives us two very important pieces of information: the first is that their economy is still very dependent on merchants and artisans, which means that they have not yet moved to assembly line manufacturing; the second is that their farming methods are still very labor-intensive, which means they don't have things like plows or crop rotation systems. Both are highly indicative of a medieval society. I would guess that Azir's sister countries (Emul, Yezier, etc) are similar in this way, seeing as they're described as being puppet kingdoms of Azir, and any technology they could have come up with would certainly diffuse to Azir rapidly.

It could be argued that Thaylenah is industrializing: they have a very capitalist economy and a elective monarchy, both indicative of a more developed society (I used developed only in the economic sense; what is the average income, etc. There's a lot of baggage surrounding the term, but I use it here because it's the most descriptive.). They don't have the assembly line yet, but that did come later in Europe and America's industrial revolutions, so it could be not far off in the horizon. We can deduce similar conclusions about Kharbranth knowing that it's an eastern, if not world, capital for scholarship and medicine.

Shinovar is hard; we don't know too much about it. We do know, however, that farming is central to their society (see first Rysn interlude where they meet a farmer and Rysn learns that farmers are considered the most important members of Shin society.). Again, this indicates that farming is still a very labor-intensive endeavor, which means that, like Azir, they do not have any farming technology such as plows or crop rotation systems. We also know that the Shin religion is very important to their culture, and generally, as a country develops further economically, we begin to see more secularist and/or atheist movements (the why of this particular fact is a very long-winded explanation; I won't get into it right now). Both of these signify that Shinovar is almost definitely medieval.

The Reshi Isles and the Purelake are obviously not industrial. That's self-explanatory.

Liafor is interesting, because we know most fashion comes from there (see folio pages in OB). The fact that their society is not agriculture-focused could indicate that mechanization of farming and urbanization are underway. However, we know so little about Liafor that we can't reach such a conclusion with confidence. The same can be said of Tashikk and its information centers.

We have almost no information about any of the other Rosharan countries/regions, so I'll decline to analyze them at this moment.

The problem with Roshar is that since the Era of Solitude, everything's been so disconnected, so every country is at a different stage in their economic development. We also can't measure development by the same metrics as we would on Earth just because their planet is so storming different from ours, so it's entirely possible that the goals of Shinovar's religion align with those of economic development, so they'll be the first post-industrial country on Roshar. It's unlikely, because their religion discourages use of metal or stone, but my point is that  we just have no idea, and no way of knowing.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, TheWadehart said:

On dear ol' mother Earth, the invention of the steam engine kicked off the industrial revolution.  So I had two questions. 

Not quite true we had the steam engine over a thousand years before the industrial revolution, but it was never used as slaves where a cheaper option.

[SteelShaper]

2 hours ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

When fabriologists start making gem-powered plows,

What exactly would a plow on Roshar look like? Outside of Shinovar everything grows on bare rock. Would this be some kind of spinning array of sledgehammers?

[TheWadehart]

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not quite true we had the steam engine over a thousand years before the industrial revolution, but it was never used as slaves where a cheaper option.

A thousand! I thought is was more like 60.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, TheWadehart said:

A thousand! I thought is was more like 60.

if I recall correctly some greek or egyptian dude with too much time on his hands put it together during the hellenistic period.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Frustration

[PiedPiper]

27 minutes ago, SteelShaper said:

What exactly would a plow on Roshar look like? Outside of Shinovar everything grows on bare rock. Would this be some kind of spinning array of sledgehammers?

Not all of Roshar is bare rock -- Kaladin's hometown was a farming town, and I believe he mentioned soil when talking about pulling worms to make sure the plants grow. I don't have the chapter number, but I'm not going to try to find it. It's not worth it.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, TheWadehart said:

A thousand! I thought is was more like 60.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

if I recall correctly some greek or egyptian dude with too much time on his hands put it together during the hellenistic period.

Quote

An aeolipile (or aeolipyle, or eolipile), also known as a Hero's engine, is a simple, bladeless radial steam turbine which spins when the central water container is heated. Torque is produced by steam jets exiting the turbine, much like a tip jet^[1] or rocket engine.^[2] In the 1st century AD, Heron of Alexandria described the device in Roman Egypt, and many sources give him the credit for its invention.^[3][4]

The aeolipile which Heron described is considered to be the first recorded steam engine or reaction steam turbine.^[5] The name – derived from the Greek word Αἴολος and Latin word pila – translates to "the ball of Aeolus", Aeolus being the Greek god of the air and wind.

Predating Heron's writings, a device called an aeolipile was described in the 1st century BC by Vitruvius in his treatise De architectura; however, it is unclear if it is the same device or a predecessor, as he does not mention rotating parts.^[6]

1 hour ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

Not all of Roshar is bare rock -- Kaladin's hometown was a farming town, and I believe he mentioned soil when talking about pulling worms to make sure the plants grow. I don't have the chapter number, but I'm not going to try to find it. It's not worth it.

Not what they were doing.  The plants still grew on rock.  They spread the seed on the rock with a kind of paste made of a mixture of seeds and sap.

Quote

Lavis is grown on hillsides across Roshar.

Lavis fields are typically planted in the seasons following the Weeping, when the highstorms are weaker.^[2] A mixture of lavis seeds and stumpweight sap is spread across the hillsides. As the dark brown polyps begin to grow, they have to be wormed. Farmers must carefully go over each polyp searching for worm burrows. The worms like sugar, so they can be removed by inserting a reed tipped with sugar into the burrow and pulling it out when the worm latches on. Once the worm is removed, the polyp can be patched with crem. Each field can take weeks to check and it is important to check repeatedly for worms since any worm that is missed results in the loss of the entire polyp. The crop can be fertilized during the worming process.^[4]

Mature lavis polyps are filled with grains suspended in a sandy material. They are broken open, and the grain is separated from the grit and typically dried for storage.^[1]

There are different strains of lavis. The variety grown in Hearthstone has polyps that grow larger than a man's head and mature in about four months.^[2] There are smaller, heartier strains that can thrive in regions where the highstorms are stronger.^[5] It is also grown around the warcamps on the Shattered Plains.^[6]

When the Highstorm stops happening, the farmers of Tashikk started planting lavis, tallew and clema during their rest-period.^[7] Kaladin also comments on this when he travels back to Hearthstone.^[8]

Hatham's farmers have so far failed to cultivate lavis in Urithiru.^[9]

 

 

[Frustration]

Thanks for finding that @Karger.

[Karger]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Thanks for finding that @Karger.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Karger

[+Bzhydack]

While worming Lavis still be nessesry, I think mechanical/fabrial seeders or harvesters will be possible to make. Even worming machine can be possible to make, while still should be operate manualy for every polip.

Of course, on Roshar is more possibilities. Regrowth fabrials can be used for speeding up plants growth, maybe some augmenters too. Heating fabrials can be used for farming in bad terrain, as well as attractors.

Heaters can be vewry, very usefull in all kind of industry, where heat is needed.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Of course, on Roshar is more possibilities. Regrowth fabrials can be used for speeding up plants growth, maybe some augmenters too. Heating fabrials can be used for farming in bad terrain, as well as attractors.

All of those seem rather costly for an average farmer.

[+Bzhydack]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

All of those seem rather costly for an average farmer.

For now. But with more, easier axesable fabrials, their price will be lower.

This is also something what can be done on large scale, by prince, city, or some richman. Convert large amount of unaxesable ground into farms.

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

For now. But with more, easier axesable fabrials, their price will be lower.

This is also something what can be done on large scale, by prince, city, or some richman. Convert large amount of unaxesable ground into farms.

My calculations indicate that the second may be possible but not the first(see posted topic above).  You also still have to worry about highstorms.  Farming seems to require good protection from them(not to mention the everstrom)

[+Bzhydack]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

My calculations indicate that the second may be possible but not the first(see posted topic above).  You also still have to worry about highstorms.  Farming seems to require good protection from them(not to mention the everstrom)

Of course, but this is something Rosharans are able to deal with.

And im wondering about plants modified by soulcasting and/or regrowth. Literaly GMO.

[Karger]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

Of course, but this is something Rosharans are able to deal with.

They are not massively and dynamically expanding agriculture.  Subsistence level farming does not require you to be able to increase yields the way industrial farming does.

[thejopen27]

It's not an industrial revolution if the population doesn't abandon farming and country life for the city and industrial jobs. The industrial revolution wasn't from individual technology, it was from the mass production of goods. Roshar has technology that is highly complex, requires skilled labor, and specialized knowledge. It's a technological revolution, not an industrial one.

Roshar is in the midst of a peasant/slave revolt, not an urban revolution. Alehtkar was in the early stages of the Russian revolution when all of a sudden the Haitian revolution broke out. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by thejopen27

[StanLemon]

I think it would be more Renaissance than Industrial Revolution