the way of kings Should Jasnah killed the 4 men in The Way Of Kings?

[Pathfinder]

Again my comments are meant to add context. See below:

 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? Deliberate and calculating for sure, but vengeful? She could have turned only the air around their legs to molten lead or find many more horrrible ways to kill them. Nor did she go there first chance she had to clean out the vermin. No, she did it on the occasion she had a lesson to teach. She cared little about those killed in the mean time.

She shows just an incredible haughtiness even disdain for common people, not vengeance.

(Scadrial)

  Reveal hidden contents

I am reminded of Harmony treating Wax.

Most street criminals are men. Just a matter of statistics. This may simply be overinterpretation.

And so were the Ghostbloods. Jasnah could not leave witnesses. The moment she entered that street these criminals were dead men walking. That raises the question whether they were observed anyway.

Again, the point of the exercise was not a lesson. Jasnah would have taken the action regardless whether Shallan entered her life or not (if the formatting is screwy, bold, or blue, it is because I am copying from my older thread "Jasnah More Than Meets the Eye" where I quote every instance regarding Jasnah to promote discussion)

Jasnah leaned back, watching the city pass. “I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty’s hospitality. He doesn’t realize how much trouble he could face for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those …” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before. What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it? “Regardless,” Jasnah continued, “tonight’s actions came about because I chose this path, not because of anything I felt you needed to see. However, the opportunity also presented a chance for instruction, for questions. Am I a monster or am I a hero? Did I just slaughter four men, or did I stop four murderers from walking the streets? Does one deserve to have evil done to her by consequence of putting herself where evil can reach her? Did I have a right to defend myself? Or was I just looking for an excuse to end lives?”

 

Jasnah was not concerned with witnesses because (list form because they are fun for me):

1. Shallan was a witness. Jasnah did not threaten, coerce, or take any action whatsoever to prevent Shallan from running straight to the authorities. 

2. Like the murderers, Jasnah at no point made any effort to conceal her identity. She walked the length and was observed entering that location and that alley by multiple individuals (as per Shallan. I would post the quote, but then the list would become rather hard to read. If you like, I can add that later. Just ask). 

3. She is the only individual not associated with the ardents with a soulcaster. A soulcaster she is open and notorious about owning and using. It would not take rocket science to link her to those individual's deaths. 

2 hours ago, Goatbringer said:

Vengeful doesn't necessarily mean 'torture someone until they beg for death' - being vengeful can mean that Jasnah knows that these men needed taking care of and she did it. She just happened to coincide this with a lesson for Shallan. I feel like we also need more information from her perspective to know whether or not this is a 'dealing with the vermin first chance she gets' kind of thing - who's to say that Jasnah hadn't been doing these kind of nighttime forays cleaning up the streets like Bruce Wayne for weeks while she was in Kharbranth? We can only see Shallan's perspective on her time there, which is why I'm so desperate to see her interpretation of things since she is so unknowable most of the time. 

Also, I'm not saying that Jasnah isn't haughty, but I definitely don't look at this act as classism against the common people.

Although it is not conclusive, Jasnah presents a long list of information regarding the circumstances of those murderers, and also states that she feels she should be doing more with her soulcaster. So both of those combined, lends me to believe she researched the situation extensively before taking action (as we have seen her do so with Aesudean (I always screw up her name, the prior Queen), Shallan, Amaram, and so on). Once she was sure of everything she told Shallan, she took action. From her own lips, it appears this was the first, or among the earliest actions she has taken in this regard:

 

“The city watch,” Jasnah said, “has done nothing. Taravangian has sent them several pointed reprimands, but the captain of the watch is cousin to a very influential lighteyes in the city, and Taravangian is not a terribly powerful king. Some suspect that there is more going on, that the footpads might be bribing the watch. The politics of it are irrelevant at the moment for, as you can see, no members of the watch are guarding the place, despite its reputation.”

 

“If it helps you wrestle with your feelings, child, understand that I was trying to do good. I sometimes wonder if I should accomplish more with my Soulcaster.” 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Yolenlightweaver]

I recall when Wit tells Dalinar that he is actually a tyrant, and in another age he would fight against him, but maybe a tyrant is what Roshar needs. I feel like that lens is how we must view Jasnah's actions. It is true that killing people shouldn't ever be considered good, but is it just? We can't say the guard would take care of it since she already showed that they weren't doing anything, and if the justice system is not solid should justice  be taken into one's hands? If you say she shouldn't have done what she did, that is like saying that Vasher is also evil for killing the people he did with Nightblood. I think it is a different time and age with people trying to solve problems. It was probably harsher and more up front than it needed to be, but I don't think we can say she did wrong.

[Goatbringer]

@Pathfinder - excellent breakdown. You are aptly named as the Lord of Book Quotes.

[GriffinMaze]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Not really. They are street bandits and presumably murderers. If they are arrested, tried and found guilty, they will be executed. Such is the law in that area. Or they will go free. Scaring them into changing their ways will hardly work.

She could have apprehended them

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, Goatbringer said:

@Pathfinder - excellent breakdown. You are aptly named as the Lord of Book Quotes.

Thanks!

1 hour ago, GriffinMaze said:

She could have apprehended them

Still would have led to their execution assuming they didn't have a way to get out of it:

 

The frail light of her cloaked Soulcaster reflected off metal in the hands of their stalkers. Swords or knives. These men meant murder. You didn’t rob women like Shallan and Jasnah, women with powerful connections, then leave them alive as witnesses. Men like these were not the gentlemen bandits of romantic stories. They lived each day knowing that if they were caught, they would be hanged.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Still would have led to their execution assuming they didn't have a way to get out of it:

Not necessarily.  Most legal systems as advanced as the Vorin one usually have some form of plea bargaining.  Even if that were true allowing the proper authorities to carry out punishment through legal means is often useful. 

[Nymeros]

Most definitely

I live in a "stand your ground" state with no duty to flee though so I'm biased.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Nymeros

[Pathfinder]

54 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not necessarily.  Most legal systems as advanced as the Vorin one usually have some form of plea bargaining.  Even if that were true allowing the proper authorities to carry out punishment through legal means is often useful. 

For myself, although Shallan is admittedly an unreliable narrator, I do not see it being plausible that Shallan would be in error of the basics of the legal system of Kharbranth. As a scholar, as well as simply a person living in a city, I would imagine she would have a basic understanding of what the process and penalty for murder is in that particular locale. Further, considering as per Sigzil, there are other nations with such inventive forms of execution as "has eyes of blue and red" or "the hog", I personally do not feel it would be a stretch that hanging would be the go to solution for a couple of murderers of affluent women (the path is well known and the shortest from the theater district, as well as notorious enough to reach the king's ears himself). So although I acknowledge it potentially, possibly could have plea bargaining (though I do not personally believe so myself), for myself at least, unless the murderers were still able to use their bribery or connections to get out of it completely, as per Shallan, I believe there is only one destination for these individuals. The hang man's noose. But to each their own. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Elsecaller_17.5]

@Pathfinder I agree on every point (and thank you so much for the quotes. 

Just one thing to add right now, it is undeniable that Jasnah's motivations were pure. Why? Because she said they were as Jasnah is the last person who would lie about that.

[first void]

I always have many points of view at once.

1. Removed threat with relativity little pain to them

2. If forced through justice system, they would most likely have been tortured

3. She is batman

4. I find it unlikely any of them had very close family, let alone kids.

5. She had semi planned the encounter.

6. She could have done countless non-lethal things to end it.

7. Roshar needs some form of public works program.

8. social reforms similar to the new deal? wars make jobs.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, first void said:

3. She is batman

I kinda hate batman but yes.

6 minutes ago, first void said:

4. I find it unlikely any of them had very close family, let alone kids.

Possible but it really could go either way.

7 minutes ago, first void said:

2. If forced through justice system, they would most likely have been tortured

I don't think we have any implication that that is common in Vorin lands and I highly doubt it is normal in karbranth a city known for its public works and lack of slaves.

[first void]

True for #2. I was thinking of medieval europe standards, so i forgot the difference of cultures. But #1 is more accurate than you would think. I take her knowledge and way of dealing with the situation to show that she has set out to stop these murders, as she has all pertinent information. She knows where and who they have been robbing. killing, and lures them out.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

1 hour ago, first void said:

3. She is batman

I want to disagree with you. I have a hard time doing so.

[ConfusedCow]

          So the chapter where Jasnah kills those men (36 The Lesson) and the following chapter (37 Sides) where Kaladin and Lirin confront Roshone and Kaladin learns Lirin has been lying about the spheres are deliberately juxtaposed.  On the Shattered Plains, Kaladin hangs strung up before the highstorm in a delirious state and we the reader are offered these two chapters about morality and ethics to chew on while we await his fate.  The two chapters are structured in a similar manner, like Brandon was teaching a class.  They begin in a safe place, Hesina's Kitchen, the Bath House.  They travel towards a tense confrontation.  Then the ethics of the parent figure are revealed to be complicated and dubious.  Shallan and Kaladin each experience this as a sort of growing moment, a progress toward maturity.  Following the confrontation there is a period of reflection between the adult and child, and the chapter is concluded by the child making a choice in imitation of the parent.  Shallan choses to steal the soulcaster.  Kaladin chooses to become a surgeon and go by his full name.  

          The Juxtaposition is not meant to be entirely deconstructed.  As hoid says, the storytellers job is to raise questions not answer them.   Yet, these experiences are meant to be compared by the reader, even if only subconciously.  What are we to make of this comparison?   In many ways, Lirin's methods are more deceitful, his motives less pure. Yet, he does not kill (not even later when he could) and his acts inspire Kaladin to be a better person.  Jasnah's righteous anger and dazzling magic are stunning. Yet, in the end her actions seem more like theater.  Jasnah's casual priviledge and wealth seem almost nauseating besides Lirin's peaceful, desperate struggle for a handful of spheres.   What a mix of character traits?!  Lirin seems weak, duplicitous and genuine, Jasnah dazzling and horrific.   Most telling, however, might be that Shallan despite all Jasnah's wisdom is left confused and alone.  Brandon is teaching us the ideals of the Knight's Radiant in the Way of Kings.  When Kaladin turns away from the honor chasm, Brandon explains life before death.  Then Kaladin teaches the bridgeman to carry the bridge, putting himself the 'strongest' literally before the 'weakest'.  These two chapters are meant to teach journey before destination.   

[Greywatch]

I find myself silently, frequently comparing The Lesson to Adolin's murder of Sadeas. In terms of why I’m okay with it, it comes down to the fact that Sadeas and these men were not going to stop. They were not going to be convinced to change their minds. So though I don’t necessarily think what Jasnah did was ethical, I have to disagree with Shallan here because I do find Jasnah’s actions moral. Others may disagree, but it’s the reason I put them in the same category. 

Murder is wrong, but given the options available, what they did was the most moral thing to do. The system that Jasnah (and Adolin) exist in failed them by leaving them no other reasonable choice. As Jasnah says, murder is a legal definition. What they did was kill unethically. When the current fight is over, legal and social reform will be the best bet to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

Their societies, or at least Kharbranth, is not set up for a carceral or rehabilitative justice system. Even if Jasnah had spared them, we are explicitly told that hanging is a certainty for them.

The reader is given every indication that if Jasnah hadn’t killed them, the city’s justice system couldn’t have or wouldn’t have stopped them, leaving them free to continue murdering. 

We know that this group of men murdered every time they accosted someone. “On three separate occasions during the last two months, theatergoers who chose this route to the main road were accosted by footpads. In each case, the people were murdered.” So there isn’t confusion about whether these were thieves who left people alive at the end.

Does this count as self-defense? Yes. The fact that Jasnah is more powerful than these men is immaterial to the definition. They attacked first, without provocation. The fact that Jasnah had the power to do to them what they were going to do to the women doesn’t change the facts that they attacked first, and Jasnah defended.

Did Jasnah go out there with the intention to kill them? Yes, she said so straightforwardly. It was still self-defense, and Jasnah’s motive was to protect people. Jasnah’s belief is that they would have continued murdering; with the facts that the reader is given, I agree with her. I think she saved lives.

And this is a not part of my argument, but even Shallan is less bothered by the act than by the way Jasnah acts. “But it wasn’t the act itself so much as the cold callousness of it that bothered her.” This is something I have no problem with. Shallan frequently can’t read Jasnah, but that doesn’t mean an outwardly calm appearance means that she literally feels nothing about it. On the contrary, we’re shown afterwards that Jasnah feels very strongly about what she did. 

[thejopen27]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:50 AM, Yolenlightweaver said:

I recall when Wit tells Dalinar that he is actually a tyrant, and in another age he would fight against him, but maybe a tyrant is what Roshar needs. I feel like that lens is how we must view Jasnah's actions. It is true that killing people shouldn't ever be considered good, but is it just? We can't say the guard would take care of it since she already showed that they weren't doing anything, and if the justice system is not solid should justice  be taken into one's hands? If you say she shouldn't have done what she did, that is like saying that Vasher is also evil for killing the people he did with Nightblood. I think it is a different time and age with people trying to solve problems. It was probably harsher and more up front than it needed to be, but I don't think we can say she did wrong.

I wonder if in the original Dragonsteel (where Dalinar was first written) Hoid did oppose Dalinar who was a tyrant.

[GriffinMaze]

On 6/23/2020 at 1:21 PM, Pathfinder said:

Still would have led to their execution assuming they didn't have a way to get out of it:

 

That's fine, it still was never her decision to make or her sentence to execute.

 

We are all going to die one day, so it's ok for someone to kill someone because they are going to die regardess?

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, GriffinMaze said:

That's fine, it still was never her decision to make or her sentence to execute.

 

We are all going to die one day, so it's ok for someone to kill someone because they are going to die regardess?

So first and foremost, I would like to clarify that it was not my intention to portray the false equivalency of "person will die anyway, so it is ok for me to kill them". Also I do not think that was Jasnah's rationale either. 

Now that I covered what I didn't intend to say, here is what I did intend to:

We are supremely advantaged in this case. Normally we would no where near this level of information. Normally (this is not political, and is not meant to reference any real life occurance) we wouldn't know for certain how the interaction came to be. We don't know the true motivations of the parties involved. We don't know the full account of the actions nor the thoughts behind them. We try to reconstruct it, but at the end of the day, we just weren't present. With this case, we do have all that information. We know:

 

1. These are career murderers and have killed multiple people in the exact same way multiple times before

2. These individuals were going to kill Jasnah and Shallan. Not only due to Shallan's impression of them, but because the individuals did in fact approach Jasnah with lethal intent, and attempted to strike Jasnah first. Only then did Jasnah touch the assailant and kill him. So we know for a fact what the murderers were intending to do and actively doing

3. The law has failed the city and its people. Even the King himself has been unable to get the guards to do their duty

4. the murderers have connections in high places. Places that supersede the king of the city. 

5. We know the penalty of the actions these individuals have already taken, and continue to take

 

So why is the "legal" result of these individuals important in regards to Jasnah's actions? Because apparently it wasn't even the King's decision to execute the individuals because the legal system as it stood was corrupt. The murderers with things as they stood were not going to see justice. As things stood, the murderers were not going to stop. As things stood there is no faith in a system to properly prosecute if the system cannot even properly protect and serve (again solely regarding this issue in the book. Not discussing current events). So Jasnah claimed responsibility and all it is heir to because as we see, no one else could. And they tried. The highest authority in the city tried. Multiple times. So for myself when it is "no one's place" to carry out the law, I feel Jasnah was justified in doing so herself. This probably can come off as trivializing it, since this concerns people's lives (though it is not my intention), but when there is something that threatens people's lives, and the powers that be do nothing, then it becomes a choice. To watch and pretend, or to act and fix it. I think based on the information provided, Jasnah was unable to fix it within the legal structure of the city. So she acted outside it. I totally recognize and respect that people can view that choice in various lights and opinions. I respect yours. I just hold my own. 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Pathfinder

[ConfusedCow]

What of the fact that Jasnah was born into wealth and priviledge?  She has all the spheres she could ever need, thanks to lots of heartless brutal killing by her father and uncle.  Jasnah seems unbound by legal consequences or even concerns.  She certainly won't be brought to justice for her 'crimes'.  The difference between Jasnah and those murdering theives is more a matter of success and clothing style than morality.  Perhaps, those thugs were justified in murdering her.  Alright, I exaggerate for effect.  I like Jasnah.  Still who is she to judge others crimes, especially without giving them a chance to speak in their defense, especially as a kind of political favor?  Tell me honestly that the casual killing of weak, desperate people by powerful, rich people doesn't  always turn your stomach.  

Edited June 25, 2020 by ConfusedCow

[Pathfinder]

Regarding context: (added quotes regarding the murderers. text is in blue and bold because I am copying from my thread "Jasnah, More than Meets the Eye")

 

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

What of the fact that Jasnah was born into wealth and priviledge? 

Shes used that wealth and privilege to attempt to change society for the better. She has advocated for equal rights, and against separation. 

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She has all the spheres she could ever need, thanks to lots of heartless brutal killing by her father and uncle. 

And she has used those funds to try to improve the culture, as well as try to save the world from the apoclypse.

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Jasnah seems unbound by legal consequences or even concerns. 

Like all the other highprinces, and quite the number of lighteyes. She is using her position of power to try to make a better world. 

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She certainly won't be brought to justice for her 'crimes'. 

Never said she would. 

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The difference between Jasnah and those murdering theives is more a matter of success and clothing style than morality. 

Actually the difference is the murderers have been murdering innocent people on their way home from a theater show. Jasnah researched the situation extensively to be certain who she was carrying out her own judgement on. An they were most certainly not innocent. 

 

On three separate occasions during the last two months, theatergoers who chose this route to the main road were accosted by footpads. In each case, the people were murdered.

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Perhaps, those thugs were justified in murdering her. 

As I said, we are supremely privileged in this case because we know that is not the case. They are career killers. The have killed at three prior instances in the same location, the same way. The scene also shows the individuals trapping both women (so if they were some how justified in killing Jasnah, what about Shallan?). The scene shows all the men armed with lethal bladed weapons. And finally and most crucially, the murderer struck with his weapon first. So given this is now the fourth time this has occurred, as well as Jasnah picked that day at random (she had been intending to for awhile, and took the opportunity to do so), those individuals were not planning to kill Jasnah specifically. They were staking out the area for an innocent to kill and rob. 

 

On three separate occasions during the last two months, theatergoers who chose this route to the main road were accosted by footpads. In each case, the people were murdered.

The frail light of her cloaked Soulcaster reflected off metal in the hands of their stalkers. Swords or knives. These men meant murder. You didn’t rob women like Shallan and Jasnah, women with powerful connections, then leave them alive as witnesses.

Noise from behind. Shallan turned with a start to see several dark forms crowding into the alley. 

Other shadows were moving in front of them, from the far side of the alley. They grew closer, grunting, splashing through foul, stagnant puddles.

There were four men around them. 

The men grunted at the glare, but shoved their way forward. A thick chested man with a dark beard came up to Jasnah, weapon raised. She calmly reached her hand out—fingers splayed—and pressed it against his chest as he swung a knife.

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Alright, I exaggerate for effect. 

That is what is supremely privileged regarding this screen. There isn't exaggeration, because we are afforded all the information we could need. 

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I like Jasnah.  Still who is she to judge others crimes, especially without giving them a chance to speak in their defense, especially as a kind of political favor? 

What defense? As indicated earlier, Jasnah extensively researched this location and the crimes. These are career criminals. They have murdered 3 times before. They attempted murder on her person at no provocation from her. (see the earlier quotes)

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Tell me honestly that the casual killing of weak, desperate people by powerful, rich people doesn't  always turn your stomach.  

The murderers were not:

 

1. weak. they had weapons and have used them before

2. desperate. they had enough money and connections to bribe the guards to not arrest them or patrol the area

3. by rich people. A rich person was potentially helping them accomplish their goals

 

“The city watch,” Jasnah said, “has done nothing. Taravangian has sent them several pointed reprimands, but the captain of the watch is cousin to a very influential lighteyes in the city, and Taravangian is not a terribly powerful king. Some suspect that there is more going on, that the footpads might be bribing the watch. The politics of it are irrelevant at the moment for, as you can see, no members of the watch are guarding the place, despite its reputation.”

 

So their deaths do not turn my stomach. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Pathfinder

[ConfusedCow]

          Yes, they were criminals. Yes, they attacked first.  That does not add up to a death sentence.  Jasnah had other options, whether or not she considered them. There are unknowns, whether or not we admit them.  Killing people in dark alleys is not the way to build a better world.  The truth is that Jasnah's killing, comes not as a dispassionate lesson, or a search for justice, or even as a favor to Taravangian.  She kills because she hurts, deep pains in her past.  While I ache for her, this does not make killing now okay.  I do not know how she can find healing and peace, but I wish it for her.

[first void]

Another viewpoint: They are dead. This is now fact, and as such is unchanging. To dwell on what might have been is pointless

Yet another view: The contributions of Shallan and Jansah to society far outweighs the contribution of two crooks. 

Final view: This was development Shallan needed.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

6 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Tell me honestly that the casual killing of weak, desperate people by powerful, rich people doesn't  always turn your stomach.  

Always, not at all. This situation is an obvious example. If you want a real world example, you could logically apply that same statement to the U.S. military taking out terrorists. I dont have any problem with that either.

2 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Yes, they were criminals. Yes, they attacked first.  That does not add up to a death sentence.

Their intent to murder, rape, and rob countless victims if they are not stopped (and without Jasnah they wouldn't have been) does add up to a death sentence. An immediate death sentence, given the circumstance.

2 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

The truth is that Jasnah's killing, comes not as a dispassionate lesson, or a search for justice, or even as a favor to Taravangian.  She kills because she hurts, deep pains in her past.

I just disagree. All of those had a role to play, but as I said earlier she is not one to lie about her motivations. She said the main motivation was to help King T/ deliver justice. I am inclined to believe her.

[Pathfinder]

So first and foremost, my responses are not meant in a sarcastic or snarky way. I know I am beating a dead horse by saying context, but again that is the reason for the responses.

 

15 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

          Yes, they were criminals. Yes, they attacked first.  That does not add up to a death sentence. 

In many countries in the real world, as well as many countries in Roshar, it does. The fact that they were career killers and the crimes were recent/close together shows a high likelihood that if they attempt similar practices, the intent can be inferred as to what their desired result will be. The implements they were holding are important because whereas a bat, or pipe could be seen as having other functions, and have been used in a lethal manner at the spur of the moment or the intent be misconstrued, having the career killers brandishing swords and daggers whose only purpose is to kill confirms the intent clearly. Lethal weapons means lethal intent. Finally initiating the attack also confirms the intent which is supported by the implement used, supported by the criminal history. All of these confirm and validate the intent of lethal harm. Which by numerous real world countries and countries in Roshar, means lethal defense is allowable. 

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Jasnah had other options, whether or not she considered them.

I respect that you believe that. Personally I disagree. I believe based on the context of the situation, and the specific information we are privileged to know, the crimes would not have ended, nor would the killers be punished if she tried any other way. 

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There are unknowns, whether or not we admit them.

There are always unknowns. 1% chance of something is still a chance, but it does not mean it is reasonable to base decisions on it. There are a whole host of possibilities that could be. But I believe based on the context and the information we are privileged to know, those possibilities are remote, and not ones that are actionable. The information we have however, I believe is actionable. 

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Killing people in dark alleys is not the way to build a better world.

True. But it is a way to stop a criminal enterprise in a city where Jasnah is unable to stop it within the city's legal system. It is a way that she did supplementary to the main way she builds a better world which is through advocating the change in the laws across the globe. Using her money and influence to inspire people of all ages, races, and creeds to be treated equally and have equal opportunity to pursue their passions. 

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  The truth is that Jasnah's killing, comes not as a dispassionate lesson,

Because it was never originally intended as a lesson. It would have occured with or without Shallan

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or a search for justice, or even as a favor to Taravangian.

as she said:

those men are off the street. The people of this city are that much safer. The issue that Taravangian has been so worried about has been solved, and no more theatergoers will fall to those thugs. How many lives did I just save?

understand that I was trying to do good. I sometimes wonder if I should accomplish more with my Soulcaster

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She kills because she hurts, deep pains in her past.

Her actions with Aesudean and Amaram dispute this. Both instances she had plenty of opportunity and cause to kill them both due to "deep pains in her past". Yet in both instances she waited, and investigated further. Turns out in both instances, it would have actually been better had she gone through with killing them. Shallan when seeing Amaram first at Urithiru becomes enraged, but then thinks to herself that Jasnah would have advised and cautioned her to wait, take a step back, and find out more information. 

 

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  While I ache for her, this does not make killing now okay.

I too sympathize with her history and eagerly look forward to learning more about Jasnah in the back five. But I do not see anywhere in the information provided where Jasnah or I used her history as license and validity for her actions with the four murderers. She already listed rather extensively the circumstances that caused her to come to her conclusion. 

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  I do not know how she can find healing and peace, but I wish it for her.

I wish it for her too, and given how far she progressed as an Elsecaller whose entire schtick is self improvement/betterment, I believe she has and will continue to grow. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[ConfusedCow]

        Ah Pathfinder, we have locked antlers a bit haven't we.  I generally like to paint a broad picture and let others fill in the details, but perhaps a close line by line analysis will speak to you.  Let us consider Jasnah's motivations, because on this question morality turns.  Why did Jasnah kill in that alleyway? 

        Jasnah tells us but as always actions speak louder than words.  Jasnah with emotionless eyes claims "I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty's hospitality.  He doesn't realize how much trouble he could face for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those ... "(WOR 549).  So Jasnah's explanation of her motivation is that she was doing Taravangian a political favor.  I don't doubt that this is true, but it also cannot be her real motivation.  A princess killing thieves as a kind of political favor? Plus, it doesn't really help Taravangian.  It doesn't make him a stronger king or ward off Jasnah's enemies.  If Jasnah wanted to do Taravangian a favor she had plenty of other, better means at her disposal.  Jasnah is setting Shallan an academic exercise and not being not entirely genuine about its purpose or her opinion.  "She [Jasnah] wasn't necessarily advocating ideas because she believed them; she just wanted to push Shallan" (WOR 543).

        In our quest to find Jasnah's motivation, let us pause to consider why she wants Shallan to study the ethics here.  Jasnah claims "There will be times when you must make decisions that churn your stomach, Shallan Davar. I'll have you ready to make those decisions" (WOR 549).  Jasnah is not refering to a hypothetical future or some neccesary quality of scholars.  Jasnah is focused on her goal.  She is talking about when she asks Shallan to join her in killing all of the parshmen.  She wants to test whether Shallan has the mindset to join her in that terrible task.  Jasnah's stomach churns at the thought and she wants to debate the matter with Shallan so she can be certain in her convinction.  Perhaps she even wants to be talked out of it or forgiven.  

        What motivations are left?  Self defense? that's a legal argument not a motivation for deliberately creating that situation.  Jasnah's quest for social justice, building a better Kharbranth?  Doubtful, there are better ways she could do this. She could pressure the city guard to reform for example, so that when she leaves other thieves don't just move in.  Alternatively, she could with soulcasting give generously to people in poverty.  Either would be more effective in the long term than vigilantism.  Recall that Jasnah thinks big.  Big problems, big solutions, she doesn't waste time.  Perhaps Jasnah had some arcane motive.  She could have wanted to test her soulcasting?  Or investigate Shallan's loyalty and powers.  Perhaps she believed those thieves to be operating for the ghostbloods or some other secret sect.  All these are possible but unlikely and hardly exonerating. 

          Consider the theater of the act.  They walk towards the theater district.  Jasnah wears a "beautiful dress of violet and gold" (WOR 543).  Jasnah deliberately witholds her purpose and raises the tension, "How foolish would you say it is for us to come here, ..." (WOR 545).  All the while she waxes philosophically about religion and youth, while the night air blows in her hair.  She even gives herself an audiance.  Jasnah is in her element. She is enjoying herself.  She feels good, freshly bathed, relaxed, teaching, contemplating killing.  Yes, she is "hard and grim" (WOR 546) in the actual moment, but Jasnah enjoyed this.  Why?

          "..."Besides, men like those ..." There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.  What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. " (WOR 549) Then later "I sincerely wanted those men gone."  This fleeting glimpse of emotion which Jasnah quickly silences, reveal more than all of Jasnah's eloquent philosophy.  Jasnah is the victim of some horrible abuse, probably sexual in nature.  Note how Jasnah's play casts her as a victim lashing out at her assailants.  She does not simply stalk these men down and jump them.  She enjoyed this because it is emotionally cathartic to kill these men.  She is rewriting her own history.  Jasnah's trauma is probably both her best and worst reason for killing.  It is the most emotionally appealing but the least logically forgivable. Here is the real moral question here. Is violence as vengeance for abuse justified?  I hesitate to answer.  I have no personal experience with abuse.  I do not truly understand the pain it leaves behind.  I think, no.  While I sympathize with Jasnah's murderous fury, even forgive it, I cannot condone it.  Shallan could do worse than repeat Hoid's words to her "Accept the pain, but don't accept that you deserved it. (OB 855) " 

This turned into a really long post.  Thank you for reading it. I enjoy this discussion.  Also, considering this made me think that Taravangian might have been trying to recruit Jasnah to the Diagram?!

        

Edited June 27, 2020 by ConfusedCow