Deducing RoW character groupings

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

We have information indicating that most of them will start together before splitting off.

Yes. And that is the reason I am questioning any information gotten from chapters 1 to 8 (at least) used for sorting people into groups. We have no idea how Brandon viewed the "common starting section" when he made his diagramm.

17 hours ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

2 - This is mostly a Windrunners problem, so Kaladin has the leader must find a solution. I don't think Dalinar is in charge of all 10 orders recruitment.

3 - The Coalition's envoy is most likely Kaladin. The leader of the Windrunners would be the best option to successfully convince the honorspren to start bonding humans again and in OB he managed to convince the ship captain to help then instead of taking Syl to the stronghold.

In conclusion i think Shallan and Adolin are in group 1 with Kaladin, not group 2.

The problem with that reasoning is that sending Kaladin means sending Sylphrena, too. Yet the last time they were in Shadesmar she had a bounty on her. I guess the Radiants will be quite reluctant to take her to Shadesmar, let alone anywhere near Lasting Integrity.

In addition, an officer delegates tasks to the people most suited to carrying them out.

[On a tangent - there is a war going on. For at least the Windrunners and Stoewards talking about generic leaders is kind of misleading. They are military branches of the Knights Radiant. Calling them officers is simply honest]

[Chiberty]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. And that is the reason I am questioning any information gotten from chapters 1 to 8 (at least) used for sorting people into groups. We have no idea how Brandon viewed the "common starting section" when he made his diagramm.

There are two problems with this:

1. Quote

   Group Three...(Though these characters have roles in Part One, they have no viewpoints.)

   This was included in the visual outline diagram Brandon made. It means that Part 1 viewpoint characters are not in Group 3.
2. No information from chapters 1-8 was used anyway. 

   Quote

   I wasn't talking about the SDCC reading when I said Shallan would be a Part 1 PoV. I was talking about the preview chapters on Tor.com. Shallan is definitely a Part 1 PoV:

   

    

@Kuram

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

...

The characters will be mostly isolated doing their own thing in three separate plot lines, interwoven in the narrative, but with little interaction between them.

...

Stormlight Book Four Updates (June 20, 2019)

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Chiberty

[+Oltux72]

11 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

There are two problems with this:

1. This was included in the visual outline diagram Brandon made. It means that Part 1 viewpoint characters are not in Group 3.
2. No information from chapters 1-8 was used anyway.

Well, you are comparing a diagramm made quite some time ago to a book after multiple edits.

[Pathfinder]

21 hours ago, Chiberty said:

 

I wasn't talking about the SDCC reading when I said Shallan would be a Part 1 PoV. I was talking about the preview chapters on Tor.com. Shallan is definitely a Part 1 PoV:

I guess what I am trying to say, to hopefully clarify my earlier post is given this piece of information that Isilel provided, coupled with the part one mention, how does this now apply? Which Isilel and Harbor offered possible alternatives to. Hopefully that helps. 

[Chiberty]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, you are comparing a diagramm made quite some time ago to a book after multiple edits.

Yes, that is true, which means small inaccuracies are to be expected, but I don't really understand how that is relevant to what I said. What I said doesn't assume that there aren't any small inaccuracies. "0" could mean "1," and "couple" could mean "few," or other things like that.

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess what I am trying to say, to hopefully clarify my earlier post is given this piece of information that Isilel provided, coupled with the part one mention, how does this now apply? Which Isilel and Harbor offered possible alternatives to. Hopefully that helps. 

The new information doesn't technically apply in any new ways. The new information is just strong additional evidence that those five characters are not in Group 3, and that Shallan and Adolin are indeed in a group together. That is all stuff--as I explain in my original post--that we had evidence towards before. As for the alternative that the groups might be swapping in the middle of the book:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

...

The characters will be mostly isolated doing their own thing in three separate plot lines, interwoven in the narrative, but with little interaction between them.

...

Stormlight Book Four Updates (June 20, 2019)

There are also other things against that in the update 5.

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

The new information doesn't technically apply in any new ways. The new information is just strong additional evidence that those five characters are not in Group 3, and that Shallan and Adolin are indeed in a group together. That is all stuff--as I explain in my original post--that we had evidence towards before. As for the alternative that the groups might be swapping in the middle of the book:

I will attempt to clarify one more time and then leave it be so I am not beating a dead horse.

 

1. My original discussion with you was not whether or not Shallan and Adolin would or would not be grouped together. It was to say that the information presented (at the time of our discussion) does not intrinsically mean they are grouped together. They can certainly be revealed to be (and have been) to be together, and still not negate my point. I am not implying your statements are ludicrous, I am using hyperbole in this case to illustrate the point I am attempting to make. If you said the oranges will taste sweet and juicy because their color is orange. Then we take a bite out of them finding out they are sweet and juicy, does not mean it confirms the reason is because of the color. Unfortunately I have not had the chance to cover all your posts with the degree i should so I have chosen to refrain from commenting on them till I can. 

So to sum up point 1. I at no point said Shallan and Adolin could not be together. I said the information presented at that time does not mean that is the only conclusion that could be derived. 

 

2. Still going along with not trying to prove Adolin and Shallan are or are not together, my question was how could Shallan be a PoV in part 1, and still be on the cover which for most of the books involved a scene from part 5, which group 2 would not be in. Isilel pointed out there would be multiple climaxes, of which one is in part 4, and the other is in the epilogue, which would account for Shallan being able to be in part 1, and still not being in part 5. Further it was mentioned that it could just be the result of everyone starting out in the same spot, and individuals have gotten PoVs before without having been mentioned in the original outline. All possibilities that would answer my question. 

So to sum up point 2. Again at no point am I arguing Shallan and Adolin could not be together. I was asking for a way to rationalize what I felt was two pieces of contradicting information. Which was provided, and I am appreciative of.

 

Hope that helps. Thanks!

Edited July 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[agrabes]

I personally think if we look at this it's showing at least a little evidence of my personal pet theory, which no one else really likes: Adolin isn't being counted as one of the characters in the Visualization charts.  I personally think there's evidence of this for OB, but don't want to repeat all that stuff from earlier.

We've got the title bar from the Tor preview chapters which says the Part One characters are Shallan, Kaladin, Navani, Venli, and Lirin.  Though, we don't know for sure what this means in the context of the visualization charts.  We know from what Sanderson has said that Group 1 will have four major characters and one very minor character.  So - the 5 characters named line up perfectly with Group 1: four major characters and one minor.

Where does this leave Group 2, Group 3, and Adolin?  My theory: Group 3 is Dalinar and Szeth.  We know Szeth is in jail.  We know that he and Dalinar both have a relatively minor role in RoW.  I think it's pretty highly likely that they are in Group 3. 

So, Group 2 leaves Jasnah, Adolin, and various slightly less important characters as possible members.  Jasnah and Adolin as a pairing just makes no sense at all.  There doesn't seem like a lot the two of them would need to do together.  My theory is that Group 2 is Jasnah and Renarin.  They will become closer together in RoW and have their own self-contained scholarly plot.  This leaves Adolin out of the named slots in Sanderson's outline as usual.  Adolin appears with Group 1, but is not counted as one of the POVs because as I theorized earlier he does not have his own plot.  So far, up through Oathbringer he has never advanced his own goals or come up with his own original ideas, with the exception of his "Dalinar is going insane" plotline in WoK.  He will still have a decent number of POVs though.  His role in the story is to show us what Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin look like from the outside.

Crackpot theory? Maybe. 

To tie it to the new info we've gotten in the past week:

Group 1: Shallan, Kaladin, Navani, Venli, and Lirin with Adolin as an unlisted hanger-on.  The main battle group working on the war and its problems.  With Kaladin temporarily sidelined and working as a surgeon, I expect Lirin to appear a lot with Kaladin as they work together as surgeons in the early part of the book.  Once Kaladin works through his issues, Lirin will stay behind in Urithiru.  Shallan and Adolin break off for a short time to do the mission to Shadesmar with Teft or another windrunner, but return to the main group by the end.  Navani leads the effort for fabrial development.  Venli does the expected and fully breaks away from Odium, creating a new component to the war.  Everyone ultimately works together against Odium in the main war effort.

Group 2: Jasnah and Renarin work on the mysteries of Urithiru and Renarin's corrupted spren, occasionally assisting Navani with Fabrial stuff.

Group 3: Dalinar and Szeth philosophizing across the bars of a jail cell.  Szeth tries to convince Dalinar to let him go fulfill his crusade idea.  Dalinar tries to convince Szeth that what he's done is wrong and he needs to atone for it and he needs to feel remorse.  Dalinar pops in on other groups when they cross paths to do Bondsmith stuff.

[Chiberty]

57 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I personally think if we look at this it's showing at least a little evidence of my personal pet theory, which no one else really likes: Adolin isn't being counted as one of the characters in the Visualization charts.  I personally think there's evidence of this for OB, but don't want to repeat all that stuff from earlier.

We've got the title bar from the Tor preview chapters which says the Part One characters are Shallan, Kaladin, Navani, Venli, and Lirin.  Though, we don't know for sure what this means in the context of the visualization charts.  We know from what Sanderson has said that Group 1 will have four major characters and one very minor character.  So - the 5 characters named line up perfectly with Group 1: four major characters and one minor.

Where does this leave Group 2, Group 3, and Adolin?  My theory: Group 3 is Dalinar and Szeth.  We know Szeth is in jail.  We know that he and Dalinar both have a relatively minor role in RoW.  I think it's pretty highly likely that they are in Group 3. 

So, Group 2 leaves Jasnah, Adolin, and various slightly less important characters as possible members.  Jasnah and Adolin as a pairing just makes no sense at all.  There doesn't seem like a lot the two of them would need to do together.  My theory is that Group 2 is Jasnah and Renarin.  They will become closer together in RoW and have their own self-contained scholarly plot.  This leaves Adolin out of the named slots in Sanderson's outline as usual.  Adolin appears with Group 1, but is not counted as one of the POVs because as I theorized earlier he does not have his own plot.  So far, up through Oathbringer he has never advanced his own goals or come up with his own original ideas, with the exception of his "Dalinar is going insane" plotline in WoK.  He will still have a decent number of POVs though.  His role in the story is to show us what Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin look like from the outside.

Crackpot theory? Maybe. 

To tie it to the new info we've gotten in the past week:

Group 1: Shallan, Kaladin, Navani, Venli, and Lirin with Adolin as an unlisted hanger-on.  The main battle group working on the war and its problems.  With Kaladin temporarily sidelined and working as a surgeon, I expect Lirin to appear a lot with Kaladin as they work together as surgeons in the early part of the book.  Once Kaladin works through his issues, Lirin will stay behind in Urithiru.  Shallan and Adolin break off for a short time to do the mission to Shadesmar with Teft or another windrunner, but return to the main group by the end.  Navani leads the effort for fabrial development.  Venli does the expected and fully breaks away from Odium, creating a new component to the war.  Everyone ultimately works together against Odium in the main war effort.

Group 2: Jasnah and Renarin work on the mysteries of Urithiru and Renarin's corrupted spren, occasionally assisting Navani with Fabrial stuff.

Group 3: Dalinar and Szeth philosophizing across the bars of a jail cell.  Szeth tries to convince Dalinar to let him go fulfill his crusade idea.  Dalinar tries to convince Szeth that what he's done is wrong and he needs to atone for it and he needs to feel remorse.  Dalinar pops in on other groups when they cross paths to do Bondsmith stuff.

I have already given my points against your theory about Adolin, so I'll just leave that be. However, I do have a separate point against this specific theory on the groupings. Brandon said that Group 2 will get viewpoints in Part 1. If all of the Part 1 PoVs were in Group 1, Group 2 wouldn't get any viewpoints there. Beyond that point, my original post goes into more depth.

@Pathfinder I had responded because I thought you were asking me a question. Are you saying that I interpreted it wrong and that your question was already answered? Sorry about any confusion there; intention is difficult to communicate through text.

[agrabes]

29 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

I have already given my points against your theory about Adolin, so I'll just leave that be. However, I do have a separate point against this specific theory on the groupings. Brandon said that Group 2 will get viewpoints in Part 1. If all of the Part 1 PoVs were in Group 1, Group 2 wouldn't get any viewpoints there. Beyond that point, my original post goes into more depth.

@Pathfinder I had responded because I thought you were asking me a question. Are you saying that I interpreted it wrong and that your question was already answered? Sorry about any confusion there; intention is difficult to communicate through text.

Yeah, fair enough about the Group 1/Group 2 thing.  But, the reverse side of it is also true.  Only 5 characters are listed, but there are a total of 7 between Groups 1 and 2.  So, if the listed characters are a mix of Groups 1 and 2 (which I agree is possible), then who are the other two characters?

Who knows how he chose to break it down.  It would make sense to me if he simply chose to list the 5 Group 1 characters since their plot arc is most important to the overall story and main arc of the whole book and left the Group 2 characters unlisted.  But, it would also make sense if he chose the 5 characters he felt were most significant in Part 1 regardless of their "Group".  Either way, Shallan and Adolin as Group 2 is still not confirmed.  For example, if you assume Adolin does count (which despite my theory, should probably be the default position) it's possible that Shallan and Adolin will be accompanied by Navani and Jasnah to Lasting Integrity, Lirin fading out or dying off early as the 5th Group 1, and with Kaladin and Venli staying behind as Group 2.  Maybe Jasnah is the minor Group 1 character who just exists to port them back and forth to Shadesmar at pre-arranged times, with Adolin, Navani, Shallan, and Venli, Kaladin and Lirin make up a philosophical Group 2 in Urithiru doing surgery for most of the book.  We probably know 5 of the 7 Group 1 and Group 2 characters, but that's it.

Edited July 27, 2020 by agrabes

[Karger]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Where does this leave Group 2, Group 3, and Adolin?  My theory: Group 3 is Dalinar and Szeth.  We know Szeth is in jail.  We know that he and Dalinar both have a relatively minor role in RoW.  I think it's pretty highly likely that they are in Group 3. 

But Szeth only has around one PoV.  I do not think that sufficient for group membership.

18 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yeah, fair enough about the Group 1/Group 2 thing.  But, the reverse side of it is also true.  Only 5 characters are listed, but there are a total of 7 between Groups 1 and 2.  So, if the listed characters are a mix of Groups 1 and 2 (which I agree is possible), then who are the other two characters?

They may not have viewpoints in Part One.  We know that two of the G1 characters do not have major major roles.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Chiberty said:

 

@Pathfinder I had responded because I thought you were asking me a question. Are you saying that I interpreted it wrong and that your question was already answered? Sorry about any confusion there; intention is difficult to communicate through text.

It was a general question to anyone who fell into the category i stated which was:

Individuals that felt shallan was both a pov in part 1 (group 2) but also on the cover which would be part 5 (group 1 or 3). 

It wasn't specifically targeted at anyone in particular. 

My reason for responding to you is based on what i read from your response, you took my question as me trying to prove that shallan and adolin are not together, regardless which group they find themselves in. That me mentioning those seeming two pieces of contrary information was my way of saying they cannot be together. Which as i said was never my intention. 

Hope that helps!

 

On 7/26/2020 at 7:58 AM, Pathfinder said:

So i have a genuine question. First and foremost i am not trying to prove a point. As in i am not trying to prove shallan and adolin are in any group over any other group. Just taking two pieces information i noticed and curious how people would rationalize it. So here they are

 

1. A lot of people have said that the bulgarian cover of adolin and shallan confirmed they had to be together and that it is an image of a climatic scene at the end of the book. So that would mean they would have to be present in part 5

2. People have stated that adolin and shallan have to be in group two because its mentioned that she has a scene in part one. 

 

The image isilel just posted shows that:

1. Group two is in part one but not part five

2. Group three is not in part one but is in part five

 

So are shallan and adolin in group two, but thereby are not in the ending climactic scene? Or are they in group three, having the climactic final scene but only show up without view points in part one?

I have quoted myself. Hopefully seeing the post again will help. I tried to add it via edit but my phone wont let me paste it in.

[Chiberty]

36 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yeah, fair enough about the Group 1/Group 2 thing.  But, the reverse side of it is also true.  Only 5 characters are listed, but there are a total of 7 between Groups 1 and 2.  So, if the listed characters are a mix of Groups 1 and 2 (which I agree is possible), then who are the other two characters?

Who knows how he chose to break it down.  It would make sense to me if he simply chose to list the 5 Group 1 characters since their plot arc is most important to the overall story and main arc of the whole book and left the Group 2 characters unlisted.  But, it would also make sense if he chose the 5 characters he felt were most significant in Part 1 regardless of their "Group".  Either way, Shallan and Adolin as Group 2 is still not confirmed.  For example, if you assume Adolin does count (which despite my theory, should probably be the default position) it's possible that Shallan and Adolin will be accompanied by Navani and Jasnah to Lasting Integrity, Lirin fading out or dying off early as the 5th Group 1, and with Kaladin and Venli staying behind as Group 2.  Maybe Jasnah is the minor Group 1 character who just exists to port them back and forth to Shadesmar at pre-arranged times, with Adolin, Navani, Shallan, and Venli, Kaladin and Lirin make up a philosophical Group 2 in Urithiru doing surgery for most of the book.  We probably know 5 of the 7 Group 1 and Group 2 characters, but that's it.

A specific point against that is that Venli should be in Group 1:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

...

This decision made, I sat down and wrote Dalinar's flashbacks in their entirety. By the end of them, I was completely convinced these were the best paring for this book. That meant, as this was "his" book, I wanted Dalinar viewpoints to show up in all five parts of Oathbringer. You see, Stormlight Books have a kind of strange format. I plot them in this bizarre fashion that likely makes sense only to me. But I'll try to explain.

I split each book into five parts, which group together to form three chunks plotted like individual volumes of a trilogy--with a large, over-arching plot that ties into the five-book arc of the initial sequence, which in turn is half of the complete ten book arc. Each volume, then, has a complete trilogy's worth of arcs and climaxes for the primary characters (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar) while also having a self-contained flashback sequence, at least one secondary novelette about a character that hasn't had viewpoints so far, and a related short story collection. The "main character" for the book gets, beyond their flashback sequence, a role in each part of the story.

...

Stormlight Three Update #2 (Jan. 19, 2016)

Have you read my original post? I don't blame you if you didn't--it's long--but I make most of these points there, and it's easier for me to discuss if those points are directly addressed.

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

But Szeth only has around one PoV.  I do not think that sufficient for group membership.

Technically, Brandon said that Szeth has at least one PoV, which could mean more. Even if he does only get one, the minor group slots were described in a way that wouldn't preclude him from being in them.

@Pathfinder Yeah, I misunderstood. I agree with the point Isilel made about that.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Chiberty said:

Technically, Brandon said that Szeth has at least one PoV, which could mean more. Even if he does only get one, the minor group slots were described in a way that wouldn't preclude him from being in them.

I should say that I think Brandon would have had a more immediate account then "I know he has one," if he had formal group membership IE an important role.

[Chiberty]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I should say that I think Brandon would have had a more immediate account then "I know he has one," if he had formal group membership IE an important role.

Here's his exact wording:

Quote

Mrrobot112

Eshonai is flashback character [for Stormlight Four], but she is dead in the present. So...who will be main protagonists in the main timeline? Hope for Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin will be as important as they were in first three books)

Brandon Sanderson

Eshonai will still be the flashback character, and Venli will take a larger role to provide counterpart past/present. But, as always, you will find a focus on all five protagonists from this sequence. (I view them as Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Eshonai/Venli, Szeth.)

...

General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 5, 2018)

Quote

Stormlightning

How the heck is Nale's spren still with him? Is his spren as wacky as he is? Or is it dead, and he still carries it around?

Brandon Sanderson

Nale's spren is alive. The highspren... I would say "wacky" is probably a decent term for them. I would blame some of how Nale is acting more on the highspren. Obviously, it's partially being a Herald and all the things he's gone through, but they're all on board for this. So read that as you will.

Well, "all." The ones that are making Radiants of the Order are on board for it. You'll get to see Szeth interact with his just a little bit. There's not a ton of Szeth in this book, but you've got a few chapters. At least one, for sure. And he gets to interact with his spren, and you'll get a better picture of the highspren from that moment.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Chiberty said:

A specific point against that is that Venli should be in Group 1:

Have you read my original post? I don't blame you if you didn't--it's long--but I make most of these points there, and it's easier for me to discuss if those points are directly addressed.

I have read it a few different times, but I don't have it memorized.  It's hard to read and figure out exactly what all your arguments are about all possible topics.  I also feel like a lot of the conclusions you've reached are based on fairly weak evidence.  I don't think that's your fault, it's just that there's not much solid information out there for any of us to go on and you're trying to work with what you've got.  I mostly come to this thread because I think it's fun to speculate about this stuff and talk back and forth with other people who are interested.  So, I respect the work you've put in, but I don't take it as gospel.  I'm just going to engage in direct conversation about what I'm interested in and what topics people are talking about recently.  If it's something you've already covered and I've missed it, either copy/paste your original argument back at me if you're interested in discussing it or just ignore me and move on with stuff you'd rather talk about.  I won't be offended and hopefully I don't bother you too much that way either.

Just for example, I consider the WoB you quoted about why Venli should have a POV in all parts of the book to be pretty weak evidence.  That WoB is from 2016, prior to the release of OB.  Sanderson has changed his approach to these kinds of things in each book, at least slightly.  For example, in OB, Dalinar (21%) did not have nearly the page count that Kaladin (33%) or Shallan (31%) had in their respective books.  Adding in flashbacks, he gets closer but still lags behind.  In RoW, Sanderson chose to make both Eshonai and Venli as flashback characters while he had always before had only one character.  We know that in 2016 he had not yet made that decision.  If he had chosen to stick with only Eshonai flashbacks, would Eshonai have made an appearance in each Part?  That seems pretty unlikely.  There are a ton of factors in the equation there that mean you can't just take that quote as straight up gospel truth.  Now, I will also say I do believe Venli is most likely in Group 1.  But we don't know that as a fact.  We know she has a large role in this book.  I think it's plausible that she could be group 2, with additional POVs coming in the Interludes.  Her POVs were split between the main story and interludes in OB so it's reasonable they might be again, though again to be fair, it's less likely.  Right now there isn't an obvious choice of who would be the main through line interlude character.  Always before it's been someone who is kind of a frenemy and future ally to our main heroes with Szeth, Eshonai, and Venli.  I'm not sure who fits the bill this time around, other than Venli.  Maybe it will take a turn and go to Moash who is a one time friend moved to frenemy-ish and likely future full fledged enemy long term.

So all this is to say that there's no strong evidence that Adolin and Shallan are the two characters that make up group two.  There's proof they will go together on a mission to Shadesmar with at least one other person who may or may not be one of the listed characters from the groups, if the Amazon blurb is accurate.  I think it's reasonable to assume both are in the same group based on that and I think it's reasonable to say they're not in Group 3.  But they could easily still be in Group 1, especially if my theory about Adolin is correct.  I don't think the characters who are in the same "group" have to always be together throughout the book.  For example in WoR, you would probably say that Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, and Kaladin were in the same "group" but Shallan and Kaladin had their extended sequence off together after the assassination attempt on Dalinar.  The mission to Shadesmar could be similar.  It's also easily possible that the rest of Group 1 would accompany them to Shadesmar.

2 hours ago, Karger said:

But Szeth only has around one PoV.  I do not think that sufficient for group membership.

They may not have viewpoints in Part One.  We know that two of the G1 characters do not have major major roles.

We have established that Group 3 is significantly less important than the other two groups, so I think one character from that group could have only a few POVs.  I think Szeth is too important to the overall story and to what is likely to happen in SA5 to be so far out of the picture that he isn't in any of the groups or a major interlude character.  Szeth may only have one or two POVs, but I think he'll be on screen more often through Dalinar POVs.  My somewhat unpopular theory is that Sanderson doesn't base the list of who makes it on his outlines on POV page count.  He bases it on plot importance and character development for a particular character.  Basically, his outline is about how he accomplishes the things he is trying to accomplish in the book.  If you look back at the outline for OB it doesn't make sense at all if you compare page count and appearance in various parts of characters vs. his outline.  So, this is why (imo) Szeth may have relatively few of his own POVs in RoW but will achieve significant character development and will be setting things in motion that are important for the overall plot of the series, mostly seen through Dalinar's eyes.  His importance to the overall series plot and the character development he will experience qualify him for an individually named character slot (imo).  

For the G1/G2 characters, also a fair point.  I guess there are three possibilities for how the names were chosen - list only group one as they are the "lead" group, list only the most important POVs regardless of group, or list only characters who actually have POVs in that part regardless of group.  

[Chiberty]

20 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I have read it a few different times, but I don't have it memorized.  It's hard to read and figure out exactly what all your arguments are about all possible topics.  I also feel like a lot of the conclusions you've reached are based on fairly weak evidence.  I don't think that's your fault, it's just that there's not much solid information out there for any of us to go on and you're trying to work with what you've got.  I mostly come to this thread because I think it's fun to speculate about this stuff and talk back and forth with other people who are interested.  So, I respect the work you've put in, but I don't take it as gospel.  I'm just going to engage in direct conversation about what I'm interested in and what topics people are talking about recently.  If it's something you've already covered and I've missed it, either copy/paste your original argument back at me if you're interested in discussing it or just ignore me and move on with stuff you'd rather talk about.  I won't be offended and hopefully I don't bother you too much that way either.

Just for example, I consider the WoB you quoted about why Venli should have a POV in all parts of the book to be pretty weak evidence.  That WoB is from 2016, prior to the release of OB.  Sanderson has changed his approach to these kinds of things in each book, at least slightly.  For example, in OB, Dalinar (21%) did not have nearly the page count that Kaladin (33%) or Shallan (31%) had in their respective books.  Adding in flashbacks, he gets closer but still lags behind.  In RoW, Sanderson chose to make both Eshonai and Venli as flashback characters while he had always before had only one character.  We know that in 2016 he had not yet made that decision.  If he had chosen to stick with only Eshonai flashbacks, would Eshonai have made an appearance in each Part?  That seems pretty unlikely.  There are a ton of factors in the equation there that mean you can't just take that quote as straight up gospel truth.  Now, I will also say I do believe Venli is most likely in Group 1.  But we don't know that as a fact.  We know she has a large role in this book.  I think it's plausible that she could be group 2, with additional POVs coming in the Interludes.  Her POVs were split between the main story and interludes in OB so it's reasonable they might be again, though again to be fair, it's less likely.  Right now there isn't an obvious choice of who would be the main through line interlude character.  Always before it's been someone who is kind of a frenemy and future ally to our main heroes with Szeth, Eshonai, and Venli.  I'm not sure who fits the bill this time around, other than Venli.  Maybe it will take a turn and go to Moash who is a one time friend moved to frenemy-ish and likely future full fledged enemy long term.

So all this is to say that there's no strong evidence that Adolin and Shallan are the two characters that make up group two.  There's proof they will go together on a mission to Shadesmar with at least one other person who may or may not be one of the listed characters from the groups, if the Amazon blurb is accurate.  I think it's reasonable to assume both are in the same group based on that and I think it's reasonable to say they're not in Group 3.  But they could easily still be in Group 1, especially if my theory about Adolin is correct.  I don't think the characters who are in the same "group" have to always be together throughout the book.  For example in WoR, you would probably say that Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, and Kaladin were in the same "group" but Shallan and Kaladin had their extended sequence off together after the assassination attempt on Dalinar.  The mission to Shadesmar could be similar.  It's also easily possible that the rest of Group 1 would accompany them to Shadesmar.

Yeah, my original post is somewhat confusing, but I didn't mean to come across like I want you to memorize the post--that would be bad. Honestly, I don't even remember all of the points I made in there. There have been a lot of times I've been discussing things in this thread and somebody will convince me on a certain point, and I'll have to look back through my own post to remember why I made the placements I did. Really, the only reason I mentioned that I've covered most of these points in that post is because it's difficult for me to remember my arguments from there, and it will take new a lot longer to respond if I don't know what I'm looking for. 

About the OB update information being weak evidence, that could very well be true. I'm not trying to take these quotes and present them as absolute truth; I just want to find what the most likely combination is using as much information that I can find. Looking through all of my points, the main weak spot I could find regarding Adolin and Shallan's placement in Group 2 is the assumption that the Group 2 PoVs will both get more than just a viewpoint "here and there," especially in the climax. The "strong" evidence I found for the different points is just strong relative to the rest. If we were going off of concrete evidence only, all we would have to use is the information we've gotten during the late drafts of the book. Really, this is all just speculation, albeit with a lot of references (as many as could find). I don't mean to present it as absolute at all. 

[Jace]

Looks like group 1 is Kaladin Venli Navani Dalinar and Lirin

Group2 is most likely Adolin and Shallan

 

[Harbour]

Looks like it settled then.

Part 1 seems like majorly covering Hearthstone (up till chapter 8 at least) with a bits of Shallan PoVs from warcamps, where she is with Adolin. Then they will all meet and Dalinar will send them two in Shadesma, so Part 2 would be Shadesmar with Shallan and Adolin.

[Chiberty]

Just now, Harbour said:

Looks like it settled then.

Part 1 seems like majorly covering Hearthstone (up till chapter 8 at least) with a bits of Shallan PoVs from warcamps, where she is with Adolin. Then they will all meet and Dalinar will send them two in Shadesma, so Part 2 would be Shadesmar with Shallan and Adolin.

The groups all start together. The first chunk of the book isn't going to tell us much about the groups.

[Isilel]

This post of Sanderson's on reddit offers some more clues about groupings:

So, it seems more or less confirmed that PoV-wise Shallan and Adolin are in part 2 and 4 and Dalinar and Szeth in 3 and 5. Lift has an interlude and it is a bit unclear where Jasnah's few PoVs will fit in and whether Renarin has any. Sanderson also previously said on reddit that Moash would get an intelude as well - which, hopefully, means that he won't be the "interlude novella" character. This character is the remaining mystery and, personally, I hope that it is Rlain or a new singer.

I have felt rather uncomfortable for some time that we mostly got the singer side of the conflict in OB through human PoVs of Kaladin and Moash and how either or both where suggested for leading the non-Fused singers or even the Fused(!) to some new destiny. This strongly reminds me of the blockbuster Hollywood movies that are set outside the US, but habitually put an American, or at least a white person in the lead role, because the studios feel that the audience would be unable to relate otherwise - i.e. "Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise, that film with the Chinese Great Wall and Matt Damon, etc. Yes, we had Venli too, but she didn't actually interact or bond with the new singers. So, I really hope that this ostensibly Singer-focussed book doesn't follow suit.

[agrabes]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

This post of Sanderson's on reddit offers some more clues about groupings:

So, it seems more or less confirmed that PoV-wise Shallan and Adolin are in part 2 and 4 and Dalinar and Szeth in 3 and 5. Lift has an interlude and it is a bit unclear where Jasnah's few PoVs will fit in and whether Renarin has any. Sanderson also previously said on reddit that Moash would get an intelude as well - which, hopefully, means that he won't be the "interlude novella" character. This character is the remaining mystery and, personally, I hope that it is Rlain or a new singer.

I have felt rather uncomfortable for some time that we mostly got the singer side of the conflict in OB through human PoVs of Kaladin and Moash and how either or both where suggested for leading the non-Fused singers or even the Fused(!) to some new destiny. This strongly reminds me of the blockbuster Hollywood movies that are set outside the US, but habitually put an American, or at least a white person in the lead role, because the studios feel that the audience would be unable to relate otherwise - i.e. "Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise, that film with the Chinese Great Wall and Matt Damon, etc. Yes, we had Venli too, but she didn't actually interact or bond with the new singers. So, I really hope that this ostensibly Singer-focussed book doesn't follow suit.

Thanks for posting that.  It does seem like Group 2 is almost certainly Shallan/Adolin, much as I fought against the idea.  Group 3 is very likely Dalinar/Szeth but not confirmed.  In theory, I suppose it could be Dalinar/Venli with Szeth as a hanger-on with no POVs.  Probably not likely though.  Dalinar is confirmed to be not Group 1 or 2.

Group 1 I think Kaladin and Navani are now confirmed.  Lirin could be one of the spots, but might not be.  Venli is most likely Group 1.  So 1-2 spots are still open and will probably be taken up by a more minor character.

 

As to your other comment - I'll just say I don't think anything like that is happening here at all.  There's no indication that Kaladin or Moash will be leading singers or fused.  There might be some fan speculation about it, but it's not in the books themselves.

[Isilel]

The plot thickens - Szeth isn't one of the PoVs, he only gets an Interlude:

So, who is? Not Lift, not Moash (he also gets an Interlude, hopefully only the one and isn't our interlude novella PoV), not Szeth... So, Jasnah or Renarin? Rlain, maybe?  I kinda hope for him to be an Interlude novella PoV, though. There was also this WoB that Ash and Taln won't get any PoVs in RoW:

Somebody new, perhaps, like Mink?

BTW, concerning Venli's flashbacks, I have kinda hoped that the compelling thing about them would be the insight into Listener history and society and hidden nuggets of critical information derived from that, as well as the introduction and/or fleshing-out of other notable Listener characters. Not everybody needs to have some horrible secret in their past to have compelling flashbacks. Venli's present is horrible enough, even though her actions that led to it aren't a mystery. So, I am a little concerned now.

OTOH, if the second PoV of the  sub-plot that includes Dalinar is Rlain, then it is very likely that it will deal with the escaped Listeners. I have suspected that positioning of that secondary plot in the same parts of the book that also contained Venli's/Eshonai's flashbacks implied that the 2 would be closely connected even when I thought that Szeth would be the second PoV in it. Not sure how Jasnah would fit in, though, if she is the second PoV instead.

[Chiberty]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

The plot thickens - Szeth isn't one of the PoVs, he only gets an Interlude:

One of the 9 PoVs in Brandon's outline was expected to only get an interlude.

[agrabes]

10 hours ago, Chiberty said:

One of the 9 PoVs in Brandon's outline was expected to only get an interlude.

True- but I wouldn't expect Szeth to be Group 1 since he's imprisoned by Dalinar during the book.  Or at least, starts off imprisoned.  More likely Szeth just didn't make the list.  Though I admit, it's also just my preference too - I don't particularly like the way Szeth never really had to prove himself to be accepted by the group in OB.  You can kind of forgive it because there wasn't much choice then, but now they do have other choices.  It would feel lame to have him as a tag-along in the main plot group, somehow accepted to be part of the most critical mission without proving himself yet.

This probably puts Group 3 as Jasnah/Dalinar politics plot?

Traditional Lineup:

Group 1 - Navani, Kaladin, Venli, ???, 1 POV ? (Main fight + Fabrial Research)

???= Renarin? Rlain? Teft? Malata? 

1 POV? = Lirin? Herdazian General?

Group 2 - Shallan, Adolin (Mission to Shadesmar)

Group 3 - Dalinar, Jasnah (Politics)

Not Counted - Szeth, Ash, Taln, Lift

 

Controversial Lineup:

Group 1 - Navani, Jasnah, Shallan, Renarin, 1 POV? (Fabrial Research Team, Including Field Mission to Shadesmar.  Adolin hangs with this group and gets some POVs but wasn't counted in the list due to not being a major player in the Research Team.  Actual fighting plays secondary role vs. technology war)

Group 2 - Kaladin, Venli (Kaladin - Diplomatic Mission to "Listener" Remnants for Character Growth + Main Fight)

Group 3 - Dalinar, ??? (Politics + Main Fight)

Not Counted - Szeth, Adolin, Ash, Taln, Lift

Edited September 11, 2020 by agrabes

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

True- but I wouldn't expect Szeth to be Group 1 since he's imprisoned by Dalinar during the book.  Or at least, starts off imprisoned.  More likely Szeth just didn't make the list.  Though I admit, it's also just my preference too - I don't particularly like the way Szeth never really had to prove himself to be accepted by the group in OB.  You can kind of forgive it because there wasn't much choice then, but now they do have other choices.  It would feel lame to have him as a tag-along in the main plot group, somehow accepted to be part of the most critical mission without proving himself yet.

He's not imprisoned by Dalinar, Dalinar told him to go to prison, presumably at Urithiru, which also happens to be what seems like the most likely location for Group 1 right now. Nobody has to accept him to go on a critical mission; he could just stay at Urithiru.