Deducing RoW character groupings

[Chiberty]

I had already referenced this WoB earlier in this thread, but I somehow missed this important section of it.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

...

This decision made, I sat down and wrote Dalinar's flashbacks in their entirety. By the end of them, I was completely convinced these were the best paring for this book. That meant, as this was "his" book, I wanted Dalinar viewpoints to show up in all five parts of Oathbringer. You see, Stormlight Books have a kind of strange format. I plot them in this bizarre fashion that likely makes sense only to me. But I'll try to explain.

I split each book into five parts, which group together to form three chunks plotted like individual volumes of a trilogy--with a large, over-arching plot that ties into the five-book arc of the initial sequence, which in turn is half of the complete ten book arc. Each volume, then, has a complete trilogy's worth of arcs and climaxes for the primary characters (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar) while also having a self-contained flashback sequence, at least one secondary novelette about a character that hasn't had viewpoints so far, and a related short story collection. The "main character" for the book gets, beyond their flashback sequence, a role in each part of the story.

...

Stormlight Three Update #2 (Jan. 19, 2016)

Here, Brandon explains that the flashback characters will be in each of the five parts of their book, not including the flashbacks. Unless Brandon has changed his overall structure for Stormlight books since then, this seems to be a much clearer indication that Venli is indeed in Group 1.

He also says that the novelette/interlude main character will be someone that hasn't had viewpoints before, which narrows down the options for that slot a good amount. It is unclear whether someone like Rlain, who has had only one viewpoint so far, can be a candidate for this spot, so he remains a good option, but I think that this makes it much less likely to be, say, Moash or Taravangian.

[agrabes]

8 hours ago, ChickenLiberty said:

I had already referenced this WoB earlier in this thread, but I somehow missed this important section of it.

Here, Brandon explains that the flashback characters will be in each of the five parts of their book, not including the flashbacks. Unless Brandon has changed his overall structure for Stormlight books since then, this seems to be a much clearer indication that Venli is indeed in Group 1.

He also says that the novelette/interlude main character will be someone that hasn't had viewpoints before, which narrows down the options for that slot a good amount. It is unclear whether someone like Rlain, who has had only one viewpoint so far, can be a candidate for this spot, so he remains a good option, but I think that this makes it much less likely to be, say, Moash or Taravangian.

I think that's a valid conclusion, but also I think the reason you didn't include it earlier is because in RoW the flashbacks apparently only appear in Parts 3-5.  So for RoW, Sanderson must have changed it up at least a little bit compared to what he did for the first three books. 

I think it could go one of two ways:
1) Venli is in all parts because she's the flashback character and therefore she's Group 1.

2) Venli is in all parts that line up with her flashbacks.  So, I guess that would still make her probably Group 1.  Just maybe not appearing with a POV until Part 3?  Or maybe not with the main group until then?

 

I do wonder if there's something to the idea that Kaladin might be in Group 2 or 3, with a more personal arc in this book.  I agree with your point that it seems like Kaladin and Venli should be together.  But, it does say in your WoB 17 that each of the main characters will take have a book or two where they are less important.  I guess you could argue that in a way Kaladin was not super important in OB, though he still had a lot of page count.  OB was not his book to be the hero.  I have a hard time imagining Kaladin with a truly small page count though.

[Use the Falchion]

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

 

I do wonder if there's something to the idea that Kaladin might be in Group 2 or 3, with a more personal arc in this book.

I'm starting to think that way as well. I still think that Shallan and Adolin will be Group 2, but I can also see that being Kaladin and another character now, and the story Wit tells affecting Kaladin during a dark time, inspiring him to take that Fourth Oath. 

But if Kaladin is in Group 2, that would probably move Shallan and Adolin to Group 1 with Venli, Rlain, and maybe Navani? And from there it could be a journey into the Cognitive Realm in order to find The Sibling or something similar...hmm...that would also allow Kaladin to interact with Szeth and potentially Jasnah more, assuming both stay in Urithiru, and those dialogues would be fascinating...hmm...

[Chiberty]

 

5 hours ago, agrabes said:

I think that's a valid conclusion, but also I think the reason you didn't include it earlier is because in RoW the flashbacks apparently only appear in Parts 3-5.  So for RoW, Sanderson must have changed it up at least a little bit compared to what he did for the first three books. 

I think it could go one of two ways:
1) Venli is in all parts because she's the flashback character and therefore she's Group 1.

2) Venli is in all parts that line up with her flashbacks.  So, I guess that would still make her probably Group 1.  Just maybe not appearing with a POV until Part 3?  Or maybe not with the main group until then?

 

I do wonder if there's something to the idea that Kaladin might be in Group 2 or 3, with a more personal arc in this book.  I agree with your point that it seems like Kaladin and Venli should be together.  But, it does say in your WoB 17 that each of the main characters will take have a book or two where they are less important.  I guess you could argue that in a way Kaladin was not super important in OB, though he still had a lot of page count.  OB was not his book to be the hero.  I have a hard time imagining Kaladin with a truly small page count though.

 

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'm starting to think that way as well. I still think that Shallan and Adolin will be Group 2, but I can also see that being Kaladin and another character now, and the story Wit tells affecting Kaladin during a dark time, inspiring him to take that Fourth Oath. 

But if Kaladin is in Group 2, that would probably move Shallan and Adolin to Group 1 with Venli, Rlain, and maybe Navani? And from there it could be a journey into the Cognitive Realm in order to find The Sibling or something similar...hmm...that would also allow Kaladin to interact with Szeth and potentially Jasnah more, assuming both stay in Urithiru, and those dialogues would be fascinating...hmm...

@Use the Falchion, Wit's story will be told to a minor PoV in Group 1.

Before we had the Syl interlude, I had no idea what would really be going on with Group 1 since I thought that Kaladin's group wouldn't be staying at Urithiru. Now that we know a little of what's going on with Kaladin, I could definitely see him staying. That also solves the issue some people had about Navani leaving. The remaining question about that group would be how Venli fits in. Since Venli is extremely likely to be in Group 1, which seems likely to be at Urithiru, Venli might eventually come there in part 2 or 3, either as an infiltration or being imprisoned.

 

 

[Use the Falchion]

Just now, ChickenLiberty said:

 

 

@Use the Falchion, Wit's story will be told to a minor PoV in Group 1.

Before we had the Syl interlude, I had no idea what would really be going on with Group 1 since I thought that Kaladin's group wouldn't be staying at Urithiru. Now that we know a little of what's going on with Kaladin, I could definitely see him staying. That also solves the issue some people had about Navani leaving. The remaining question about that group would be how Venli fits in. Since Venli is extremely likely to be in Group 1, which seems likely to be at Urithiru, Venli might eventually come there in part 2 or 3, either as an infiltration or being imprisoned.

 

 

Gotcha thanks for the correction. 

Interesting idea about Venli and Group 1!

[Chiberty]

https://www.tor.com/2020/07/23/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-prologue-and-chapter-one/

This confirms Kaladin, Shallan, Navani, Venli, and Lirin as Part 1 PoVs. That should lock down Lirin as a minor Group 1 PoV.

https://www.comic-con.org/cciathome/2020/video/4lRDdxUy5iE

This has an explicit confirmation that Szeth will get some PoV chapters (maybe just one). It is still unclear if he is in Group 1 or 3.

[Karger]

Just now, Chiberty said:

This confirms Kaladin, Shallan, Navani, Venli, and Lirin as Part 1 PoVs. That should lock down Lirin as a minor Group 1 PoV.

All of this happens in Harthstone same as chapter 1.  This could be before they split up.

[Chiberty]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

All of this happens in Harthstone same as chapter 1.  This could be before they split up.

I'm not talking about the actual events; I'm referring to how those five are listed as the viewpoint characters at the beginning of Part 1, which will only include PoVs from Groups 1 and 2.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Chiberty

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

I'm not talking about the actual events; I'm referring to how those five are listed as the viewpoint characters at the beginning of Part 1, which will only include PoVs from Groups 1 and 2.

Sorry I mixed groups and parts.  I think it likely that Shallan group two.  Lirin probably is a minor part one unless it is Moash a prospect I hate.

[Pagerunner]

Before we get too carried away, I think it would be good to check the current methodology against a historical example.

As we all know, Oathbringer had a similar outline provided for us:

It was, of course, the focus of much speculation in its day.

When Oathbringer was released, here were the "POV names" in each Part and set of Interludes:

Quote

Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin
    Puuli * Ellista * Venli
Shallan * Jasnah * Dalinar * Bridge Four
    Kaza * Taravangian * Venli
Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin
    Venli * Mem * Sheler
Adolin * Shallan * Kaladin * Dalinar * Navani * Szeth * Taravangian * Venli
    Venli * Rysn * Teft
The Knights Radiant * Ash * Navani * Adolin * Taravangian * Yanagawn * Palona * Vyre * Wit

If we try to take these characters and work them backwards, things don't quite line up. Here's what I can best determine, working backwards:

Quote

Primary Main Character: Dalinar
Secondary Main Character 1: Kaladin?
Secondary Main Character 2: Shallan?

Tertiary Character 1: Navani
Tertiary Character 2: Adolin
Tertiary Character 3: Jasnah
Tertiary Character 4: Szeth

Novelette One: Venli
Novelette Two: Bridge Four
Short Story Collection: other Interludes

There are some problems. The secondary main characters are obviously Kaladin and Shallan. But both of them appear in Part Four, where there originally wasn't supposed to be one of them. I've got Kaladin as the pink one because he was largely absent there, with Bridge Four taking that viewpoint.

And then for the Tertiary characters, I'm pretty confident about them, but there are some mysteries.

• Tertiary character 3 is supposed to be absent from Part 5, but my four proposed characters are either Knights Radiant or explicitly included.
• Tertiary character 1's supposed to have viewpoints in Parts 2 and 4, but no tertiary characters do in the actual book.
• Venli, the novelette 1 character, doesn't show up on Part Four in the visual outline.

So everything doesn't quite work backwards to the outline. Because it's a tool to help structure and plan the book, but the book doesn't need to be completely and entirely beholden to the structure. Things will change around during writing, of course. And for characters like Taravangian and Yanagawn and Palona, everybody can get random chapters without being included in the outline when that particular point of view works best for the book and the overarching story.

So, all that to say, yes, Lirin is one of the five Part 1 POV characters, but that doesn't necessarily fit him into one of the nine "viewpoint" characters. We already have at least two of them not getting POVs in this part, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that three of them aren't in and that Lirin is one of these "accessory" POVs, like we got a ton of at the end of OB.

And, sure, there has never been an accessory viewpoint in Part 1 of any Stormlight book. And that will be true, right up until it's not.

[Chiberty]

52 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Before we get too carried away, I think it would be good to check the current methodology against a historical example.

As we all know, Oathbringer had a similar outline provided for us:

It was, of course, the focus of much speculation in its day.

When Oathbringer was released, here were the "POV names" in each Part and set of Interludes:

If we try to take these characters and work them backwards, things don't quite line up. Here's what I can best determine, working backwards:

There are some problems. The secondary main characters are obviously Kaladin and Shallan. But both of them appear in Part Four, where there originally wasn't supposed to be one of them. I've got Kaladin as the pink one because he was largely absent there, with Bridge Four taking that viewpoint.

And then for the Tertiary characters, I'm pretty confident about them, but there are some mysteries.

• Tertiary character 3 is supposed to be absent from Part 5, but my four proposed characters are either Knights Radiant or explicitly included.
• Tertiary character 1's supposed to have viewpoints in Parts 2 and 4, but no tertiary characters do in the actual book.
• Venli, the novelette 1 character, doesn't show up on Part Four in the visual outline.

So everything doesn't quite work backwards to the outline. Because it's a tool to help structure and plan the book, but the book doesn't need to be completely and entirely beholden to the structure. Things will change around during writing, of course. And for characters like Taravangian and Yanagawn and Palona, everybody can get random chapters without being included in the outline when that particular point of view works best for the book and the overarching story.

So, all that to say, yes, Lirin is one of the five Part 1 POV characters, but that doesn't necessarily fit him into one of the nine "viewpoint" characters. We already have at least two of them not getting POVs in this part, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that three of them aren't in and that Lirin is one of these "accessory" POVs, like we got a ton of at the end of OB.

And, sure, there has never been an accessory viewpoint in Part 1 of any Stormlight book. And that will be true, right up until it's not.

I get that the outline might not hold 100%, but there has been a notable accessory viewpoint in Part 1 of a Stormlight book: Cenn. He was not included in the list at the beginning of that part, and if Lirin were to only get chapter 1, the two situations would be very similar, and it would be strange that that list was handled differently for two situations that are almost the same. Of course, it's all still speculation, but we should be finding out soon now that preview chapters are being released.

Edit: Also, by "we already have at least two of them not getting POVs in this part," you mean 4, right? 9 - 5 = 4

Edited July 24, 2020 by Chiberty

[IcaroRibeiro]

On 17/04/2020 at 11:22 PM, IcaroRibeiro said:

My guesses (or rather my wishes tbh)

Group 1: Navani, Venli and Kaladin (main POV), Rlain (minor POV) 
Group 2: Shallan, Adolin, Renarin
Group 3: Dalinar, Jasnah

Interlude Character: Moash

Group 1 will focus in the war in eastern Roshar specially but not only Alethkar, with Kaladin and Navani together at start and Venli and Rlain joining the group further

Group 2 will have Shallan, Adolin and Renarin will look for the Unmade whatever it takes place, Shallan will further act as a double agent. They are bringing Renarin because of his Spren that is related with Sja-nat. That's why their arc is narrowed focused, they won't even appear in the book climax for what it seems. I bet their arc in a cliffhanger after part 4 and only be back in SA5

Group 3 will have Dalinar and Jasnah, take place mainly in Urithiru (and cities connected by Oathgates) and it's probably going to be about politics and getting some Oathgates back, with the focus on western Roshar such as Rira, Iri and Babatharnam. Szeth will advace for not look for Shinovar yet

Moash is the antagonist POV we have in each book. He's narrative is very important to see Odium's side of the Book and will complement Group 1 arc

So based on part 1 the POV characters are:

- Kaladin
- Shallan
- Navani
- Venli
- Lirin

As group 3 are POV only in parts 3 and 5, those are our current options based on the historically possible POV characters throughout the story so far:

- Dalinar
- Szeth
- Jasnah
- Adolin

 

In my opinion, the chapters published today strongly support my prediction. Though I'm changing Jasnah as the character grouped alongside with Dalinar, I'll bet in Dalinar and Szeth as group 3 POV characters

Group 2 main character are Shallan and someone (probably Adolin, as Renarin will wait until the 2nd SA arc)

And Group 1 characters are Venli, Navani, Kaladin and yes I still believing in Rlain. Why? Because it's an arc focused in two things:

- The Singers and Humanity aliance.

- Discovery of fabrials as tools to make humanity stood a chance against Odium army  

Kaladin is the human who befriended the singers, and Navani is the queen mother of Roshar strongest human nation, however I still believe in Venli as the truly main character in this book, with Navani being the second most important character

[Pagerunner]

8 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

I get that the outline might not hold 100%, but there has been a notable accessory viewpoint in Part 1 of a Stormlight book: Cenn. He was not included in the list at the beginning of that part, and if Lirin were to only get chapter 1, the two situations would be very similar, and it would be strange that that list was handled differently for two situations that are almost the same. Of course, it's all still speculation, but we should be finding out soon now that preview chapters are being released.

Edit: Also, by "we already have at least two of them not getting POVs in this part," you mean 4, right? 9 - 5 = 4

None of the accessory viewpoints in Way of Kings (which are Cenn, Gaz, and Teft) get mentioned on the Part pages. It started in Words of Radiance, where the usual large-fantasy-series-POV-creep started to happen.

And I did skip a few steps in my math. Going off the visualization, Part 1 contains Group 1 (5 characters) and Group 2 (2 characters), while Group 3 (2 characters) is not present. So what I meant to say was, out of the seven viewpoint characters appearing in Part 1, at least two of them don't have POV chapters.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

None of the accessory viewpoints in Way of Kings (which are Cenn, Gaz, and Teft) get mentioned on the Part pages. It started in Words of Radiance, where the usual large-fantasy-series-POV-creep started to happen.

And I did skip a few steps in my math. Going off the visualization, Part 1 contains Group 1 (5 characters) and Group 2 (2 characters), while Group 3 (2 characters) is not present. So what I meant to say was, out of the seven viewpoint characters appearing in Part 1, at least two of them don't have POV chapters.

Ah, I didn't realize that. In that case, the likelihood definitely shifted less than I first thought.

[Lccaseiro58]

20 hours ago, Chiberty said:

https://www.tor.com/2020/07/23/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-prologue-and-chapter-one/

This confirms Kaladin, Shallan, Navani, Venli, and Lirin as Part 1 PoVs. That should lock down Lirin as a minor Group 1 PoV.

https://www.comic-con.org/cciathome/2020/video/4lRDdxUy5iE

This has an explicit confirmation that Szeth will get some PoV chapters (maybe just one). It is still unclear if he is in Group 1 or 3.

Of the Part 1 PoVs only Venli is not at Hearthstone and according to last year SDCC reading we know she's at Kholinar. So she's most likely group 2 with some other characters.

Group 1 should be Kaladin, Shallan and Navani, the PoVs with bigger word count and Lirin with a smaller word count.

 

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

Of the Part 1 PoVs only Venli is not at Hearthstone and according to last year SDCC reading we know she's at Kholinar. So she's most likely group 2 with some other characters.

Group 1 should be Kaladin, Shallan and Navani, the PoVs with bigger word count and Lirin with a smaller word count.

 

The PoV characters do not start out split into groups, so that doesn't tell us anything. See the bottom my original post for all of the WoBs we have about the groups.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Chiberty said:

The PoV characters do not start out split into groups, so that doesn't tell us anything. See the bottom my original post for all of the WoBs we have about the groups.

I checked your page and I don't know which WoB you mean.

[Chiberty]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

I checked your page and I don't know which WoB you mean.

Here's the one I was talking about right there:

Reddit update 5

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

Here's the one I was talking about right there:

Thanks.

[Pagerunner]

The amazon synopsis has been updated, and it's got some bits for the character grouping discussion:

Quote

After forming a coalition of human resistance against the enemy invasion, Dalinar Kholin and his Knights Radiant have spent a year fighting a protracted, brutal war. Neither side has gained an advantage, and the threat of a betrayal by Dalinar’s crafty ally Taravangian looms over every strategic move.

Now, as new technological discoveries by Navani Kholin’s scholars begin to change the face of the war, the enemy prepares a bold and dangerous operation. The arms race that follows will challenge the very core of the Radiant ideals, and potentially reveal the secrets of the ancient tower that was once the heart of their strength.

At the same time that Kaladin Stormblessed must come to grips with his changing role within the Knights Radiant, his Windrunners face their own problem: As more and more deadly enemy Fused awaken to wage war, no more honorspren are willing to bond with humans to increase the number of Radiants. Adolin and Shallan must lead the coalition’s envoy to the honorspren stronghold of Lasting Integrity and either convince the spren to join the cause against the evil god Odium, or personally face the storm of failure.

Since Shallan is a Part 1 POV, I think that locks her and Adolin down as our Group 2.

[Karger]

HA!  I was right.  Adolin and Shallan are going to Lasting Integrity!  "does victory dance"  I hope they stop at a cryptic city along the way.  I also agree with Page's assessment.  They are pretty obviously group two.  I think that also makes Kaladin and the Urithiru crowd group one.

[Chiberty]

14 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The amazon synopsis has been updated, and it's got some bits for the character grouping discussion:

Since Shallan is a Part 1 POV, I think that locks her and Adolin down as our Group 2.

Not only that, but with Shallan and Adolin as the definite Group 2, Kaladin, Navani, and Venli are confirmed as Group 1 alongside that, being the other "major" Part 1 PoVs. Those key predictions seem to have held up pretty well.

@Karger Venli with the Urithiru crowd... interesting. I can't wait to see how that happens.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Chiberty

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

@Karger Venli with the Urithiru crowd... interesting. I can't wait to see how that happens.

Couldn't she and Timbre be group three?  Also we know that Dalinar can contact her and that she will probably defect eventually.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Karger

[Chiberty]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Couldn't she and Timbre be group three?  Also we know that Dalinar can contact her and that she will probably defect eventually.

There are multiple reasons she wouldn't be in Group 3, but the main one is that Group 3 doesn't get viewpoints in Part 1, but Venli does.

[Karger]

35 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

There are multiple reasons she wouldn't be in Group 3, but the main one is that Group 3 doesn't get viewpoints in Part 1, but Venli does.

So perhaps Venli's participation will be over stormphone?  Or she will defect much faster then we expect?  Or she will transfer back and forth using willshaper abilities?