Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bliev said: Heterosexual relationships are the backbone of every one of Brandon's books. All of them. That is simply not true. The only series with a romantic relationship of any kind as a central pillar is Mistborn era 1. 39 minutes ago, Honorless said: You have problem a problem with one gay person liking you, on a virtual platform, who's not even a real person? Your comment regarding gay adoption rights, just wow, gay parents exist you know? And their kids are doing just fine "i am campaigning against gay discrimination - well that is good. go do it where there's actual need" - first of all, you and people like you are creating this need Whoa, let's slow down, take a deep breath, and keep in civil. I understand how this is a sensitive subject, but I am sure King of Nowhere meant no disrespect. I only have a little bit of understanding of your point if view, but King raised some legitimate points some of which I agree with. I have a very similar cultural/religious background to Brandon and I understand his struggles with this topic. I'd even guess I have a similair number of gay friends/associates. My belief, not because of doubt but rather sympathy, is that he just couldn't do a good job. Edited February 18, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5 1
+Bliev she/her Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: That is simply not true. The only series with a romantic relationship of any kind as a central pillar is Mistborn era 1. Whoa, let's slow down, take a deep breath, and keep in civil. I understand how this is a sensitive subject, but I am sure King of Nowhere meant no disrespect. I only have a little bit of understanding of your point if view, but King raised some legitimate points some of which I agree with. I have a very similar cultural/religious background to Brandon and I understand his struggles with this topic. I'd even guess I have a similair number of gay friends/associates. My belief, not because of doubt but rather sympathy, is that he just couldn't do a good job. Almost every book has a central romantic heterosexual relationship. Elantris (arranged heterosexual marriage!). Warbreaker (arranged heterosexual marriage?!). Shallan/Adolin (arranged heterosexual marriage!?). Dalinar/Navani. Even Taln/Ash is imbued with heteronormativity. The speculation on Jasnah's relationships and Kaladin's disappointments in love are all over. It's all heterocentric. If you can't see it, it's because it's essentially neutral to you, but I assure you that when that is not your status quo, the lack of other types of relationships on "screen" are very noticeable. I would also encourage us that while we are empathetic to Brandon who does seem to try more than some authors do and has not been afraid to respond to questions on this front which shows courage that other authors often do not, we don't make excuses either. Brandon has never been friends with a teenage Skaa. He's never seen a Koloss. He's never been a god. But he writes them in authentic and touching ways because he works at his skill, observes the world around him, reads voraciously, and asks questions. If he wants to do this, he can. Gay writers write heterosexual relationships all the time. Women writers write men. Edited February 18, 2020 by Bliev 5
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Bliev said: Almost every book has a central romantic heterosexual relationship. Elantris (arranged heterosexual marriage!). Warbreaker (arranged heterosexual marriage?!). Shallan/Adolin (arranged heterosexual marriage!?). Dalinar/Navani. Even Taln/Ash is imbued with heteronormativity. The speculation on Jasnah's relationships and Kaladin's disappointments in love are all over. It's all heterocentric. If you can't see it, it's because it's essentially neutral to you, but I assure you that when that is not your status quo, the lack of other types of relationships on "screen" are very noticeable. My point is only that none of those relationships take a narrative forefront in the story as a whole. I can understand the argument for warbreaker but that really wasn't romantic for most of the time and was a secondary plot. Edit: to clarify elantris and warbreaker have relationships as plot hooks. All the SA ones are pretty minor subplots (though Shalodin does get some fleshing g out. I don't think any of those count as "backbone". Edited February 18, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5 1
+Bliev she/her Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: My point is only that none of those relationships take a narrative forefront in the story as a whole. I can understand the argument for warbreaker but that really wasn't romantic for most of the time and was a secondary plot. I think we disagree on this. The main plot of Warbreaker is driven by Siri's marriage to the god-king in place of Vivenna. We also get a relaitonship between Blushweaver and Lightsong that persists throughout. Regardless, though (and back to the point), there are so many centrally placed heterosexual relationships throughout Brandon's books that you can try and delineate between "romantic" and "non romantic" marriages and argue that a main character's arranged marriage is secondary to the plot. It's not a knock on romance! I read LOTS of romance (which is a place where you can really easily find a lot of fun queer and straight writers, actually, that write all kinds of relatable relationships along the spectrum of sexuality), so it's pretty clear to me when things are not very diverse in this area. 3
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bliev said: I think we disagree on this. The main plot of Warbreaker is driven by Siri's marriage to the god-king in place of Vivenna. Agree to disagree 4 minutes ago, Bliev said: Regardless, though (and back to the point), there are so many centrally placed heterosexual relationships throughout Brandon's books that you can try and delineate between "romantic" and "non romantic" marriages and argue that a main character's arranged marriage is secondary to the plot. Yes we got of topic. But part of that is there simply are more straight people than not straight people. At this point I'm tempted to go through all the books and hammer out the ratio.
The Awakened Salad they/them Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 I think some people are missing the impact that strong representation can have. Representation (of any group, not just the LGBT community) isn’t just about spreading awareness to others, although that is a large part of it. Representation is also about giving people in said group a voice. A role model, someone to look up to. Someone who tells them they’re not broken. I cannot tell you how validating and wonderful that feels in words. To finally have someone that’s like you, who sees you, who understands you. Ranette and Drehy are tertiary characters. They barely have any screentime, and what we know about their characters is very limited. That’s it. We never see them interact with their partner, or do anything that would make the audience assume they’re not straight. The books have to outright tell us they’re gay, or we wouldn’t have picked up on it. And maybe for some, that’s fine, but for that little boy still hiding who he is, seeing a gay character just be shoved aside probably won’t feel all that great. It’ll send the message that he’s not as important. And I’m not at all saying this was Brandon’s intention. I don’t believe he’d purposely do that. But it does happen, intentional or not, and I think that Brandon has a responsibility to do better. So maybe Honorless is pushing for more representation not just because he feels the need to “make everything gay”, but because he knows the importance and impact that representation can have. Shoving the only two LGBT characters onto the sidelines doesn’t help, and it can just make those within the community feel ostracised. 10
+Bliev she/her Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 Just now, Elsecaller_17.5 said: Agree to disagree Yes we got of topic. But part of that is there simply are more straight people than not straight people. At this point I'm tempted to go through all the books and hammer out the ratio. I think the point, though, from my perspective anyways, is that the representation is skewed heavily in favor of heteronormativity. We all know it. We can justify it by Brandon's background, his lack of skill, or his desire not to get it wrong (all of which I think sells him short as an author), but it's definitively true. Fantasy is true creativity: you create a world that you want. And including people of varying sexual orientations has not been a key priority for him up to this point, which doesn't stand out or matter much to most straight folks, sure, but for others, lack of representation can be very jarring and a symbol of an authors' priorities and world-building. If someone can take the time to study world religions to create Shai's culture, to incorporate allusions to ancient texts and languages throughout one of the most epic world-building creations I've ever seen, then they can do better in terms of representation. I believe he can do it, and I believe he should. 5
Kidpen he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) Alright so there's a lot to unpack in this thread, and rest assured I will be unpacking it, but right now I only have enough time to say that I strongly disagree with lesbianism being a primary part of Ranette's character. (Edit: There was supposed to be another sentence here). Also she happens to be a lesbian. Low key before reading this thread I probably wouldn't have known who Drehy is at all so I can't comment on him. Edited February 19, 2020 by Kidpen
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 And for the record I would like to see more representation. Particularly existing characters coming out as not straight *cough* asexual jasnah *cough*. I just feel that were not giving Brandon enough credit for the effort he has put in.
Koloss17 She/They Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 26 minutes ago, The Awakened Salad said: I think some people are missing the impact that strong representation can have. Representation (of any group, not just the LGBT community) isn’t just about spreading awareness to others, although that is a large part of it. Representation is also about giving people in said group a voice. A role model, someone to look up to. Someone who tells them they’re not broken. I cannot tell you how validating and wonderful that feels in words. To finally have someone that’s like you, who sees you, who understands you. You know what, I never thought of that. I would have never picked up on such a thing and I feel that you are absolutely right on your point. I just read through books to escape life for a little bit and admire a world that cannot be. I would have never independently thought of the characters as a possible role model, but I think that makes sense. And with a lack of famous LGBT leaders or celebrities within our world, why not create some in another one? You have tipped my vote, @The Awakened Salad, and your point has struck true. I honestly think it might be hard for Brandon Sanderson to make a strong, prevelent LGBT character, but you have convinced me it will be worth the struggle. 8
+robardin he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) On 2/16/2020 at 1:14 PM, Karger said: The Black Tides of Heaven is good although it has some aspects I found a bit odd for lack of a better word. The entire Wayfarer series is awesome and has a great audible version if you like those. The first one is a long way to a small angry planet. Empress of Forever. Good overall I thought some of the plot was a bit heavy handed. I would recommend the Valdemar series of books by Mercedes Lackey, many of which include a gay main character - especially in The Last Herald-Mage, a prequel trilogy to the original set of books set in Valdemar (which themselves have "notable" characters who are openly gay, but not what you might call "main protagonists"). In the original Heralds of Valedmar series, there are "Heralds" who are kind of like the Knights Radiant of Roshar in that they gain power from being spiritually bonded by a supernatural Companion to help protect the realm of Valdemar, with different Gifts; but no "mage-gift" has been seen in hundreds of years, since the enormously powerful and now-legendary "Last Herald-Mage" of Vanyel Ashekvron. On 2/16/2020 at 5:00 PM, RShara said: Mercedes Lackey, The Last Herald Mage (Magic's Pawn, Magic's Promise, Magic's Price). Warning, though, it's pretty dark. I see someone else beat me to the rec! That prequel trilogy explores his life, which includes his being openly gay, and not in a token way. I am not gay myself and read these books as a teenager, and it was pretty eye-opening to gain that alternative POV on a number of fronts - as well as illuminating to see that in the end, love is love is love, regardless of orientation. (Including one-sided, unrequited, and abusive love [OK rape... like RShara said, it can get "pretty dark" at times], as well as true love.) If you read further in the series, the Mage Winds trilogy of book that are sequels (not prequels) to the original trilogy feature not only multiple gay protagonists, but IIRC, a gay antagonist. Or at least bisexually evil, shall we say. Edited February 18, 2020 by robardin 1
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) Earlier I alluded to the cultural and religious roadbumbs that Brandon faces and in the WoB I posted he did as well. I'm hesitant to go where I'm about to go because I don't want anyone to feel like I'm forcing ideas down their throat. And granted I am not Brandon. Nor have I ever discussed religion with Brandon. It anything in that vein. But if anyone wants a little clearer view into what Brandon's opinion might/probably is, and why it's a delicate situation with him that's taking sometime. Here. https://mormonandgay.churchofjesuschrist.org/ Again I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just think it will help everyone understand where Brandon is coming from. I mean he's said in WoB that his religion affects his writing so I think this valid. More justification I'm very nervous as to how this will go over. My LDS faith has been the biggest point of influence on my opinions in this matter. Brandon has said he is religious. Brandon might feel the same way I do. Please don't shoot me. Edited February 18, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5 1
Nuatoma Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 This has been a very interesting thread that has really pointed me to some internal reflection. I of course enjoy Brandon's books and I haven't had the same frustrations as the OP due to me being me and him being him. Reading through what has been said, I can understand the points of readers wanting more representation. However, I trust Brandon will do what he feels best for his books. I also trust him to put his best effort into writing gay characters, which based on the wobs shared earlier in this post, he intends to do. I can understand him wanting to get it right, as there are people in real life that can relate and would want to be represented in a fair, accurate way. I remember a thread here after Oathbringer was released and somebody was super upset because Brandon didn't write Teft's drug addiction (another area Brandon doesn't have experience with) accurately enough. So with Brandon being unfamiliar with such a sensitive topic, I would trust him when he says he needs to take his time to make it real. Just my two cents. 2
+Bliev she/her Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: Earlier I alluded to the cultural and religious roadbumbs that Brandon faces and in the WoB I posted he did as well. I'm hesitant to go where I'm about to go because I don't want anyone to feel like I'm forcing ideas down their throat. And granted I am not Brandon. Nor have I ever discussed religion with Brandon. It anything in that vein. But if anyone wants a little clearer view into what Brandon's opinion might/probably is, and why it's a delicate situation with him that's taking sometime. Here. https://mormonandgay.churchofjesuschrist.org/ Again I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just think it will help everyone understand where Brandon is coming from. I mean he's said in WoB that his religion affects his writing so I think this valid. More justification I'm very nervous as to how this will go over. My LDS faith has been the biggest point of influence on my opinions in this matter. Brandon has said he is religious. Brandon might feel the same way I do. Please don't shoot me. I appreciate his LDS faith and background, and yours. But I will say this: if one seeks to justify the erasure of someone's identity, though religion or otherwise, then it's a signal that people with those identities are not valued readers. Thus it would be completely reasonable that they would take it as a sign that these books are not for them and we have to reckon with what we're actually saying when we say such things. We all have different backgrounds and teachings and beliefs. But when we tell people: "just be patient! I'm sure he'll include you later!" It can be wearying and frustrating and, yes, it sends a signal, even if you wish it didn't. 5
king of nowhere Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Honorless said: You have problem a problem with one gay person liking you, on a virtual platform, who's not even a real person? huh? i have no problems with anyone Quote Your comment regarding gay adoption rights, just wow, gay parents exist you know? And their kids are doing just fine yes, i am aware. and if their kids are doing just fine - something of which i am absolutely convinced - then there should be no problem whatsoever getting some hard data to showcase this, right? I don't understand why people on both sides of an argument make big claims, but when one proposes to collect some data to actually verify who is in the right he gets flak from both sides. Quote "i am campaigning against gay discrimination - well that is good. go do it where there's actual need" - first of all, you and people like you are creating this need seriously. just because i don't think people should read anything in a political light, and in fact they should try to not do it? Quote It's not about you knowing about someone's intimate details? Did the presence of any of the hetero couples bother you? Why should this? I'm not asking you to buy books featuring gay characters, you won't, I get it. and that's wrong again. i said that i wouldn't care about the sexuality of a character, meaning that i would have no problem reading a gay character. why you get from this that i would not buy books is beyond me. you are taking my criticism of your arguments as intolerance. Quote No I'm not shoe-horning any political agenda here, a person would not need your approval to want to be represented in media and express that A gay main character is what I'm asking for, I'm not sorry that someone rearing their heads up to ask an author that they've loved to write about people like them seems completely uncalled for to you The fact that anyone would write up such drivel, knowing that it could be up there for posterity, knowing that other people would see this... that just goes to show why I needed to write this in the first place and as i said in the first post i wrote in this thread, i'm sure there are plenty of gay authors who could do a better job at it. and once they have done it, the heterosexual authors will also have some good inspiration to know how to do it, and could start doing it better too. what i am against is the idea that brandon sanderson, personally, has to write such a character, when he specifically stated that he fears he wouldn't be able to do a good job at it. who knows, the man is great at doing research, and he has shown interest in the topic, and he has some gay friends who could help him. so perhaps one of those years sanderson will do a lot of research and then come up with a gay protagonist. great! but he shouldn't write a gay character because he has to. he shouldn't face flak on the sole base that he didn't do it enough. that's where you stop asking and you start shoehorning an agenda. now, perhaps i also am misreading you, just like you are misreading me. perhaps you were just expressing a wish and i read it as stronger than it was, and i reacted as if it was a demand, and then you reacted as if i was against including gay protagonists in general. so let me reiterate it in the hope of clarity: asking for more gay characters represented in the media is good. i fully support this proposition. demanding that a specific author includes a gay protagonist for the sole sake of being inclusive, even when the author has perfectly legitimate reasons to not want to do it, that is shoehorning an agenda. and that's what i oppose. 4
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 @Bliev I don't want to pretend these people don't exist and I certainly don't want to say they aren't valued, they are. But I've never met someone whose sexuality is a defining character trait. Its just a little heads up to "hey don't try and set him up with your friend." 2 hours ago, king of nowhere said: asking for more gay characters represented in the media is good. i fully support this proposition. demanding that a specific author includes a gay protagonist for the sole sake of being inclusive, even when the author has perfectly legitimate reasons to not want to do it, that is shoehorning an agenda. and that's what i oppose. Yes. (I know this is a double post but I cant figure out how to quote on an edit).
Renarin Kholin he/him Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 Not sure I want to get mixed up in this discussion, but I am in a good position to understand both sides, so here goes. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, same as Brandon. I understand both the beliefs and the culture that makes him hesitant to write LGBT+ characters. In LDS culture, we typically have less interaction with LGBT people than most people do. I can see why he would want to wait until he has a better understanding of how to write them before having a main LGBT character. I understand that writing an LGBT person badly is worse than not writing them at all. As a side note, thank you @Elsecaller_17.5 for posting the link to the church's views on LGBT issues. At the same time, I think it could just be an excuse. Even being LDS, I have had a bit of exposure to LGBT people in my life. My uncle is gay. My sister is transgender. I'm sure Brandon has had enough interaction with LGBT people to be able to write them well. Personally, I would be quicker to forgive an honest blunder in writing an LGBT character than him not writing them. Brandon's work is continually amazing; I'm sure he could pull it off well. Finally, I have always thought that an LGBT character should be a well-developed character first, and LGBT second. I don't think of my uncle solely as "the gay uncle." I think of him as the fun uncle who is amazing on the piano, makes cool balloon animals, and used to play MarioKart with my siblings and I whenever he came to visit. I think that Brandon does this fairly well with Drehy, and not particularly well with Ranette. I remember Drehy as the quiet bridgeman who kind of just went along with the group, and then as a gay man (probably because I had already reread WoK and WoR before Oathbringer came out). Ranette, on the other hand, I barely remembered as a character (possibly because I was less invested in the Wax and Wayne series) before finding out she was lesbian. I appreciate that he tried though. 4
TheMothLord she/her Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 opinion from an actual straightn't. yes, i am a big proponent of more LGBTQ+ main characters, but I understand where brandon is coming from. I am also a mormon, and I've gone from not knowing gay people exist, to being pretty homophobic (but i swore i wasn't. spoiler alert: i w a s) to realizing that i would like a girlfriend as much as i'd want a boyfriend, maybe even more. as mormonism can be pretty homophobic, i usually wouldn't really trust a (straight) mormon to write a gay character, but it's clear that brandon is trying to walk a fine line between lack of representation and inaccurate representation. in conclusion: yeah i want a gay main character, but it probably won't happen for a while and im ok with that. 4
Koloss17 She/They Posted February 19, 2020 Posted February 19, 2020 As mentioned previously in the thread, Brandon is trying to be more LGBT inclusive, but he fears that he could do it wrong. He also has a gay friend, the inspiration for Drehy, so I think he’s just fine concerning mormonisms homophobia and his personal beliefs on the subject. 1
AonEne he/him Posted February 19, 2020 Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) On 2/16/2020 at 9:04 AM, Karger said: GLBT aware Oh, Brandon On 2/16/2020 at 11:21 AM, Honorless said: Though I will note that I'm looking for gay male protagonists here. Heart of Iron and the sequel by Ashley Poston. They’ve got four main characters/two couples, one’s straight and one’s gay. There are also gay/lesbian background couples. Besides that, the books are great in general, I recommend them to all of you. On 2/16/2020 at 1:49 PM, king of nowhere said: may i also point out that all love triangles i can think of involve a woman choosing between two men? i guess it's "empowering" to have the woman do the choosing between two men who just obediently take her crap, while showing a men able to pick a woman of his choice is considered demeaning. Yep, this is annoying. Beyond even just wanting a guy choosing between two girls - because that does sometimes stray uncomfortably close to actual historical prejudices - what about throwing a nonbinary person into the equation? What about making the love triangle about something other than sexual attraction? What about giving polyamory some love, pun intended? There’s just so much that could be changed here. 19 hours ago, Honorless said: Closer to home: remember the memes made in response to Dumbledore being gay? I haven’t been very involved in the Harry Potter fandom, but from what I’ve seen, most of the kickback against that was because JKR did it entirely to jump on the representation bandwagon without having to do any work. There’s a lot of evidence for this, and most people (including me) are angry at her for that, rather than for him being gay. I’d love him to be gay, but as it is I can’t believe he actually is because she never bothered to write it into canon...not even when she had chances to after her announcement. I agree with most people in that we desperately need representation, but not if that representation is being written solely to be representation. Or if you’re doing that, then at least don’t make it their entire character. 6 hours ago, king of nowhere said: on the other hand, how many couple do we see at all? i don't know, but i doubt it's more than a few dozens. among them was a transsexual (a former girl who became a man; by the way, am i supposed to call him a transsexual woman, or transsexual men?) (similarily, there are probably many more gays than you know in those books. perhaps the butler was, or one of the cooks, or some of the minor nobles who are never mentioned by name.) while worldbuilding is awesome, there is a limit to it. you only have so muh space in a book. we don't have enough space to be told the detailed tenets of survivorism, we don't have enough space to be told specifically about homosexuality, and we certainly don't have enough space to see a clash over it. again, i assume it comes down to our differences. for you, it is an important topic. if you want to be told one thing, it's how are homosexuals considered. but to most of us - especially to most of us who are not prejudiced - it's not even a topic at all. what do you think of lgbt right? - of course those guys have rights like anyone else. is there even anything to discuss? gay adoptions? - i would prefer to start with a small batch and gather some hard scientific evidence before greenlighting it, but i don't expect any problem gay culture? - is that even a thing? I assume every gay will have his own passions and interests like everyone else. Just like i reject the idea of masculine culture would you like to know more about gays? - what is there to know? I assume on the surface they are just like us, and on a deeper level they are just as individually diverse as anyone else. but if i want to know more, i ask my aunt i am campaigning against gay discrimination - well that is good. go do it where there's actual need you see, this reaction is pretty common among people i know. it's not that we have anything against lgbt. it's not that we are unaware of their exhistance. it's not even that we are insensitive to their plight - though perhaps we underestimate it because we take our attitude for granted too much. we are just not particularly interested in learning about a complete stranger's intimacy - which is what the whole argument boils down to, for us. 2) don't trust the mentally ill. Most of them are worldhoppers, or they are receiving some vision from a shard. Okay, there’s a ton to work through here, so I’ve numbered it according to paragraphs. A lot of it I didn’t include, either because it was irrelevant or because it left me literally speechless. Haha what? You’re looking at the cosmere and all the literal hundreds of characters in it, almost all of whom have either shown a distinct preference for hetero relationships whether or not they are in one themselves, and you’re saying there are only a dozen or so relationships? What? I’m just genuinely confused here. You’d call him a man. Or, in this case since you’re using his gender identity as a part of the discussion, a trans or transgender man. I don’t think anyone really uses the term transsexual anymore. (Side note, trans people don’t ‘become’ the other gender. They simply are the other gender. Not all of them know it from the start, and that’s okay.) That doesn’t count and will never count as representation. You can headcanon someone all you like, I encourage it in fact, but it’s not representation until there’s confirmation by the author either on the page or off. Preferably on, for obvious reasons. Saying “oh, any of these people could be gay, why don’t you just assume that” is an excuse meant to satisfy people. Whether you intended it or not, it comes off as trying to push the real issues away and placate people with scraps, and that doesn’t work. I think you’re overestimating how hard it is to do that. Wouldn’t be too difficult for Brandon to slip something in about a couple getting sneered at on the streets, or someone during the investigation of the church in SOS to note that there’s a gay couple in there, that’s a bit surprising for a Surviorist church, or any number of lines that could be quickly placed. Maybe that kid from the mob Wax scattered could say something derisive about it along with other Pathian tenets. Easy. See, that’s not good. It’s not as bad as hatred and homophobia, but indifference can lead into that type of thing very quickly. I’m not asking that you jump up and excitedly join a cause or anything, but not caring can often be just as bad as being homophobic. If more people actively cared about more things, the state of the world would be better. The reason why LGBTQIA+ rights are still being discussed is because there are many people in this world who don’t acknowledge them or who actively work against them. I’m glad you recognize that we have rights, but not everyone does. Are you talking about a gay couple adopting a kid? Like, is there something else to ‘gay adoptions’? I don’t understand how that is possibly a problem. Do you have something against adopting kids? Gay culture is 100% a thing, just like American culture or black culture or like...literally any group ever lol. You put a bunch of people together with something in common and you have a culture based around that. It shocks me that I even have to explain this to people - but yes, there is very much a gay culture. And a culture for everything else. That’s what culture is. There’s a lot more to know and I doubt your aunt knows all of it. I’m not incredibly up-to-date on even American LGBTQ+ history, much less other countries, and same goes for the current happenings. Nor am I an expert in certain aspects of sexuality or gender. It’s a topic just like anything else, and I don’t expect everyone in the world to learn about everything - I’m certainly not going to - but there is absolutely more to know. There is need here. The lack of LGBTQ+ rep in books shows that. See 5. Also, who in the world said anything about intimacy? If you mean physical, nobody’s talking about that. But intimacy can also be romantic or platonic, and if you don’t have a problem with those when straight cis people engage in them, you shouldn’t for anyone else either. (Also that just really doesn’t have much to do with the argument at all, from what I’ve seen.) I get that this is a joke, but...really? You wrote don’t trust the mentally ill in your signature and decided that was perfectly fine? 4 hours ago, Koloss17 said: He just doesn’t have enough experience with the LGBT community. I can see where you’re coming from, but this excuse simply doesn’t work because of one thing: the internet. Brandon’s talked before about how he looked at atheist forums to be able to write Jasnah. If at any point in time he ever wants to read writings from, talk to, offer a rough draft of a character to, or otherwise engage with anyone of any sexual or gender orientation, all he has to do is some internet searching (it’s not even difficult, and you pretty much always have options). If he wants more beta readers who are gay, there’s nothing stopping him but himself. 3 hours ago, The Awakened Salad said: I think some people are missing the impact that strong representation can have. Representation (of any group, not just the LGBT community) isn’t just about spreading awareness to others, although that is a large part of it. Representation is also about giving people in said group a voice. A role model, someone to look up to. Someone who tells them they’re not broken. I cannot tell you how validating and wonderful that feels in words. To finally have someone that’s like you, who sees you, who understands you. YES, SALAD, EXACTLY THIS. You put it so well. A+++. 2 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: *cough* asexual jasnah *cough* Yes hello I have heard the words of my headcanon and I have arrived 1 hour ago, king of nowhere said: huh? i have no problems with anyone yes, i am aware. and if their kids are doing just fine - something of which i am absolutely convinced - then there should be no problem whatsoever getting some hard data to showcase this, right? I don't understand why people on both sides of an argument make big claims, but when one proposes to collect some data to actually verify who is in the right he gets flak from both sides. You said the first thing you thought was “oh, come on” when a gay character flirted with you. That kinda sorta counts as a problem... If you’re absolutely convinced, then why is there a need for evidence? What even is the debate here? Why would a couple deciding to adopt someone be subject to this based on something mostly unrelated to raising a child? You wanting statistics shows distrust and disbelief. Again, you may not mean to convey that, but you do. Unrelated to the topic, but is English your first language? If so, could you perhaps follow the Shard’s rule about using good grammar? It can get confusing. If it’s not your first language, don’t worry about it. 1 hour ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: But I've never met someone whose sexuality is a defining character trait. Hello, it’s nice to meet you! My sexuality is not my only defining trait, but it is an important one to me. As another person who’s part of the LDS church and who used to be a homophobe but isn’t one anymore, I have nothing against Brandon. I do hold him to his word; he said he would write LGBTQ+ main characters, that he wanted to, and I cheer that on. HOLY CRAP, THIS THREAD GETS BIGGER FAST. I’m just over here trying to write this one post and I’ve been ninjaed like a dozen times Edited February 19, 2020 by AonEne Typo 8
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted February 19, 2020 Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, The Dude That Wore White said: opinion from an actual straightn't. yes, i am a big proponent of more LGBTQ+ main characters, but I understand where brandon is coming from. I am also a mormon, and I've gone from not knowing gay people exist, to being pretty homophobic (but i swore i wasn't. spoiler alert: i w a s) to realizing that i would like a girlfriend as much as i'd want a boyfriend, maybe even more. as mormonism can be pretty homophobic, i usually wouldn't really trust a (straight) mormon to write a gay character, but it's clear that brandon is trying to walk a fine line between lack of representation and inaccurate representation. in conclusion: yeah i want a gay main character, but it probably won't happen for a while and im ok with that. I relate a lot here. Homophobia is a huge problem that exists, if not in the church, certainly in its members. My own siblings are terrifyingly homophobic. But it's because I know this issue exists that I am so proud of Brandon for doing what he has. I truly respect as someone who presents LGBT people to Mormon culture. 47 minutes ago, AonEne said: Hello, it’s nice to meet you! My sexuality is not my only defining trait, but it is an important one to me. Yah, in hindsight that was insensitive. Sorry. Edit: where did @Honorless go? Edited February 19, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5 1
AonEne he/him Posted February 19, 2020 Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: Yah, in hindsight that was insensitive. Sorry. You’re fine, just wanted to point it out. I will also say, in defense of the LDS faith, that while it officially disapproves of homosexuality, the policy is still to love and accept everyone. My seminary class was talking about this on Friday (that class was so short, wish we could have talked more - I was waiting for a chance to say something the whole time ) and the teacher specifically said that while the church doesn’t want people to be in samesex relationships because it goes against what God says will lead to the highest realm of heaven and happiness, we shouldn’t treat gay people badly and they themselves are fine, just so long as they don’t act on their urges. I generally have a different view from them on this topic, but I will say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does love and accept everyone. The individual members are individual people who will do their own thing, but God wants us to love everyone. And I agree, I’m proud of Brandon for representing LGBTQ+ at all. He definitely has a long way to go, but he’s done more than some and promised even more than that, so I’m willing to wait for him to get it right. Edit: Wait, @Honorless, looking at your tags - is pan officially part of the acronym now? Edit edit: @Elsecaller_17.5 it’s like six in the morning for him, I believe. (Sorry we kept you up late, sule ) Edited February 19, 2020 by AonEne
king of nowhere Posted February 19, 2020 Posted February 19, 2020 3 hours ago, Bliev said: I would also encourage us that while we are empathetic to Brandon who does seem to try more than some authors do and has not been afraid to respond to questions on this front which shows courage that other authors often do not, we don't make excuses either. Brandon has never been friends with a teenage Skaa. He's never seen a Koloss. He's never been a god. But he writes them in authentic and touching ways because he works at his skill, observes the world around him, reads voraciously, and asks questions. If he wants to do this, he can. Gay writers write heterosexual relationships all the time. Women writers write men. the difference is, nobody in the world has been a skaa, or a koloss, or a god. so brandon cannot do those things wrong. on the other hand, plenty of people are gay, and some of them can be very touchy about it. for the same reason brandon stated that he prefers to do something in his worldbuilding to skew what would be realistic in our world, to force things to be a bit different, specifically because then nobody can say he wasn't accurate enough: Quote https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394-dragoncon-2019/#e12892 One of the things I like to do in my books is, I like to have fantastical versions of things that happen in our world, right? And this gives me a way I can look at history. I can read the accounts of, you know, what it's like to run a ladder, change it to suit my own desires and kind of have a bit more expertise where I can say, "In this situation, this is what they're doing." It allows people who know their medieval history to say, "Oh, that's cool," but also, at the same time, suspend their disbelief, right. Like, if you're a medieval historian and you're reading about actual siege warfare, I have to get it really right, or I'm gonna kick you out of the story. But if, instead, they're running bridges, it allows a lot of the mystique for medieval historians to say, "Oh, this is a different tactic, so we can't say one hundred percent what people would've done in that situation. I can enjoy the story too." And as long as I get enough right, that does that. 3 hours ago, The Awakened Salad said: I think some people are missing the impact that strong representation can have. Representation (of any group, not just the LGBT community) isn’t just about spreading awareness to others, although that is a large part of it. Representation is also about giving people in said group a voice. A role model, someone to look up to. Someone who tells them they’re not broken. I cannot tell you how validating and wonderful that feels in words. To finally have someone that’s like you, who sees you, who understands you. (...) you know what, you make lots of sense and i see your point. I guess my needs there are slightly different there so i don't realize it. my attitude of "those things are not what define a person, so you should avoid thinking of them too much" works well on a personal level (especially for the whole "don't define them based on their sexuality" pitfall), lbut it leaves some open issues if applied on a society-wide level. still, while i understand more the need for stronger representation in the media (i'm always surprised that they are not more represented; i tend to expect that if roughly 5% of people are gays, then also 5% of writers, filmmakers, showmen and other similar people are gays, and they should produce a relevant amount of ccontent showing their point of view, but it's clearly not happening). but i stand my points that nobody should feel obliged to write an inclusive character, and that brandon may not be the most appropriate writer to do it. not because of mormonism, but because he doesn't have enough exposure to the lgbt community. and yes, he certainly has the capacity to write lgbt characters with enough research (will it be any more removed from his experience than an atheist?). but he should not feel forced to do so. 20 minutes ago, AonEne said: Okay, there’s a ton to work through here, so I’ve numbered it according to paragraphs. A lot of it I didn’t include, either because it was irrelevant or because it left me literally speechless. You’d call him a man. Or, in this case since you’re using his gender identity as a part of the discussion, a trans or transgender man. I don’t think anyone really uses the term transsexual anymore. (Side note, trans people don’t ‘become’ the other gender. They simply are the other gender. Not all of them know it from the start, and that’s okay.) That doesn’t count and will never count as representation. You can headcanon someone all you like, I encourage it in fact, but it’s not representation until there’s confirmation by the author either in the page or off. Preferably on, for obvious reasons. Saying “oh, any of these people could be gay, why don’t you just assume that” is an excuse meant to satisfy people. Whether you intended it or not, it comes off as trying to push the real issues away and placate people with scraps, and that doesn’t work. I think you’re overestimating how hard it is to do that. Wouldn’t be too difficult for Brandon to slip something in about a couple getting sneered at on the streets, or someone during the investigation of the church in SOS to note that there’s a gay couple in there, that’s a bit surprising for a Surviorist church, or any number of lines that could be quickly placed. Maybe that kid from the mob Wax scattered could say something derisive about it along with other Pathian tenets. Easy. See, that’s not good. It’s not as bad as hatred and homophobia, but indifference can lead into that type of thing very quickly. I’m not asking that you jump up and excitedly join a cause or anything, but not caring can often be just as bad as being homophobic. If more people actively cared about more things, the state of the world would be better. The reason why LGBTQIA+ rights are still being discussed is because there are many people in this world who don’t acknowledge them or who actively work against them. I’m glad you recognize that we have rights, but not everyone does. Are you talking about a gay couple adopting a kid? Like, is there something else to ‘gay adoptions’? I don’t understand how that is possibly a problem. Do you have something against adopting kids? Gay culture is 100% a thing, just like American culture or black culture or like...literally any group ever lol. You put a bunch of people together with something in common and you have a culture based around that. It shocks me that I even have to explain this to people - but yes, there is very much a gay culture. And a culture for everything else. That’s what culture is. There’s a lot more to know and I doubt your aunt knows all of it. I’m not incredibly up-to-date on even American LGBTQ+ history, much less other countries, and same goes for the current happenings. Nor am I an expert in certain aspects of sexuality or gender. It’s a topic just like anything else, and I don’t expect everyone in the world to learn about everything - I’m certainly not going to - but there is absolutely more to know. There is need here. The lack of LGBTQ+ rep in books shows that. See 5. Also, who in the world said anything about intimacy? If you mean physical, nobody’s talking about that. But intimacy can also be romantic or platonic, and if you don’t have a problem with those when straight cis people engage in them, you shouldn’t for anyone else either. (Also that just really doesn’t have much to do with the argument at all, from what I’ve seen.) I get that this is a joke, but...really? You wrote don’t trust the mentally ill in your signature and decided that was perfectly fine? well, thanks for putting in the time to answer, and you make good points. and yes, i got a bit carried away in that post... anyway, some comments 1) i meant changed sex, not gender. but yeah, you got me. 3) you are right, i didn't consider that. but again, there are a lot of other issues that could be introduced in a similar way. there is also the risk that if a random survivorist kid makes a random throwaway derisive comment to hint at that aspect of worldbuilding, some readers may mistake it as a genuine opinion from the author. which sound ridiculous - when the rold ruler says that the stronger should be made dominant, nobody takes it as a genuine opinion from the author - but inclusion is a hot topic, and hot topics tend to get people to react passionately. 4) I try to be nice to everyone, in general. I would not put up with people being homophobic, or racist. as a techer, whenever homosexuality is mentioned i tell my kids that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality on the premise that adult people can do whatever they want among themselves anyway and considerations of individual freedom, and that i was apalled to discover that there are still so many troglodytes (i use this specific term) still living in the middle age culture-wise. and granted, i rarely had to give this speech, because i very rarely heard homophobic speech. I donate money regularly to avaaz, a platform launching internet campaigns for social causes, including lgbt rights, for which i signed many petititions. WHAT MORE SHOULD I DO? 7) damnation, i'm so stupid. of course if there is a thing like nerd culture, then of course there is a thing like gay culture. again, i'm looking at the tree and not the forest. then again, i don't like much the concept because I believe strongly in individual differences (and the whole "if you like this, then you probably also like that" don't work much on me; i don't fit much any mold, which further reinforced my opinion on the uselessness of molds... even when they actually have a purpose). but yeah, anyway, i should have seen it coming. 10 by "intimacy" i mean generally "things you don't discuss with strangers". which include almost anything about romance. it was about the "we need to be told that those characters are dating a same-sex person", but well, i generally am told about the relationships of my friends in the same way. for most of my friends i've never met their s.o. so i don't see anything special in that we are told that, for example, ranette has a girlfriend instead of seeing the two being intimate on screen. 11 oh, please. i put there to not trust the mentally ill specifically in cosmere books, and specifically because there are so many plot-critical characters masquerading as one of them. "be wary about that random homeless guy asking the main character a coin, there's a good chance he's actually a spy in disguise". i hope you were joking and not trying to hold it against me Quote You said the first thing you thought was “oh, come on” when a gay character flirted with you. That kinda sorta counts as a problem... oh, i see how that could get misinterpreted. no, wasn't a problem the flirting. the problem was the mathematics. mass effect has, like, as many homosexual romantic interest as straight ones. it was "come on, there are more gays or bisexuals than straight people, what are the odds?". i thought it was clear, it clearly wasn't. Quote If you’re absolutely convinced, then why is there a need for evidence? What even is the debate here? Why would a couple deciding to adopt someone be subject to this based on something mostly unrelated to raising a child? You wanting statistics shows distrust and disbelief. Again, you may not mean to convey that, but you do. ok, for this i have to open a tangent, because it's NOT related to adoptions or to anything else but i feel it's very important. I am a scientist, and I was taught and shown times and again that there is ALWAYS need for evidence. And there is ESPECIALLY need for evidence when you are absolutely convinced of something. Because the more you are convinced of something, and the more you are likely to ignore or disregard evidence to the contrary. in fact, strongly believing in a certain result is enough to disqualify one from conducting many tests, because there is a risk of inconscious bias. And so, me wanting something to be true - a large part of society wanting it to be true - is specifically the reason i would like so badly to collect evidence over it instead of taking it by faith. on the plus side, if we had this data and it would show what we expect, we could have one more argument against the haters. not that the evidence would affect my opinion. as i believe in individual differences over social groups, even if a significant statistical anomaly was proven, it would be no reason to judge someone over it. It's like, it's statistically proven that most crimes are committed by single men between age 20 and 30, but this does not make me a criminal and arresting all single men would be exceedingly dumb. and so it would be equally dumb to judge an individual case according to a general tendency of a group, even when that tendency is proven, which is not the case. and this is also part of the speeches i give to my kids when the subject is raised. Quote Unrelated to the topic, but is English your first language? If so, could you perhaps follow the Shard’s rule about using good grammar? It can get confusing. If it’s not your first language, don’t worry about it. well, my long-winded post did mention the use of the word omertà in my native italian language... 2
Honorless he/him Posted February 19, 2020 Author Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: That is simply not true. The only series with a romantic relationship of any kind as a central pillar is Mistborn era 1. Whoa, let's slow down, take a deep breath, and keep in civil. I understand how this is a sensitive subject, but I am sure King of Nowhere meant no disrespect. I only have a little bit of understanding of your point if view, but King raised some legitimate points some of which I agree with. I have a very similar cultural/religious background to Brandon and I understand his struggles with this topic. I'd even guess I have a similair number of gay friends/associates. My belief, not because of doubt but rather sympathy, is that he just couldn't do a good job. Are you only judging by certain criteria? Plot relevance? Screentime? How much it affected these couples' character arcs? If Vin & Elend count to you, then why don't Siri & Susebron, Sarene & Raoden? Shallan and Adolin do count, as do Dalinar and Navani, Wax and Steris. They fulfill the criteria I listed. As I originally stated in response to Pathfinder, I'm aware of his overcoming his past biases and striving towards more. I do like him for it, there's no disagreement here Edited February 19, 2020 by Honorless 3
AonEne he/him Posted February 19, 2020 Posted February 19, 2020 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: the difference is, nobody in the world has been a skaa, or a koloss, or a god. so brandon cannot do those things wrong. on the other hand, plenty of people are gay, and some of them can be very touchy about it. Touchy is perhaps not the right word, it implies oversensitivity when people have a right to be sensitive about this. But you have a good point about no one being a skaa, koloss, or god. 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: ...he certainly has the capacity to write lgbt characters with enough research but he should not feel forced to do so. In most cases I’d agree with this, but since Brandon himself has said he will - and has talked before about how he holds both explicit and implicit promises by the author in high regard - I do think he is obligated to live up to what he has said, at the least. 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: ...some readers may mistake it as a genuine opinion from the author. which sound ridiculous - when the rold ruler says that the stronger should be made dominant, nobody takes it as a genuine opinion from the author - but inclusion is a hot topic, and hot topics tend to get people to react passionately. That is possible, true. I hope most people wouldn’t take it that way, but some might. I’d like to think most of the Sanderfandom knows Brandon better than that. 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: WHAT MORE SHOULD I DO? Well, everything you just said makes it sound like you do care. What I’m talking about is when people are completely indifferent, because that get worse very quickly. 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: then again, i don't like much the concept because I believe strongly in individual differences (and the whole "if you like this, then you probably also like that" don't work much on me; i don't fit much any mold, which further reinforced my opinion on the uselessness of molds... even when they actually have a purpose). Yeah, it’s definitely true that fewer people will fit into every part of a culture. 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: i put there to not trust the mentally ill specifically in cosmere books, and specifically because there are so many plot-critical characters masquerading as one of them. "be wary about that random homeless guy asking the main character a coin, there's a good chance he's actually a spy in disguise". i hope you were joking and not trying to hold it against me I can’t think of any characters at the moment who have masqueraded as mentally ill people. And no, I wasn’t joking - again, I understand that you were, but I worry about it being taken out of context. *shrugs* 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: mass effect has, like, as many homosexual romantic interest as straight ones. it was "come on, there are more gays or bisexuals than straight people, what are the odds?". Oh, I see. I read a book like that once. Granted, the book was also pretty badly written. 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: Because the more you are convinced of something, and the more you are likely to ignore or disregard evidence to the contrary. in fact, strongly believing in a certain result is enough to disqualify one from conducting many tests, because there is a risk of inconscious bias. on the plus side, if we had this data and it would show what we expect, we could have one more argument against the haters. That makes sense, I hadn’t thought of that. Good points. 17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: well, my long-winded post did mention the use of the word omertà in my native italian language... *facepalms* Good job forgetting that already, Ene. My bad.
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