Spook was right.

[Pathfinder]

So posting these WoB in reference to Karger regarding how hemalurgy damages the person spiked and the person spiked from. As per Brandon, spiking someone (receiving a spike) warps them. They will never be the same. They will not pass abilities on to their children, but it will warp their children as well. It is a very bad thing to do to a pregnant woman. Now I don't believe in the "beyond" or an afterlife, but I come into the teleporting conundrum for me. The type that breaks you down into data, sends you someplace, and then rebuilds you. Again, for myself forgetting an afterlife, if I do not know for a fact that what is rebuilt on the other end is me, then I don't want to do it. Same would stand with getting spiked just before death. It messes up the "soul". It is observable. The person is messed up, and will fade faster. That leads to ethical issues, especially if used on criminals. Would that constitute as cruel and unusual punishment? Again that is all with treating as if there is no after life. Now lets treat it as the individuals do believe in an after life. It would seem like a chunk of the person's soul was ripped off, and they could spend all of eternity torn apart suffering. That I think is going to give people pause. And this is all with using hemalurgy as intended, and correctly. This has nothing to do with whether the person is an expert or playing around. It is a function of the process. Even if you spike a gold compounder who could heal their soul back and regain their feruchemy (which is possible) it still leaves scar tissue. The "soul" regrown isn't the original. Who knows the results from doing that over and over? Regarding keeping a piece of a loved one? Personally I would rather go the cognitive shadow route where the person could theoretically watch over me and guide me, than the idea I am horribly tearing off a piece of them. And I say horribly, because that is the word Brandon used. So I know and acknowledge Scadrial doesn't know these facts yet, but I think it is in the realm of possibility for them to find out, and I think that would change their view on it rather quickly. All WoB stating what I wrote above are shown below:

 

Brandon Sanderson

The Mechanism of Hemalurgy

The Blessings and the workings of Hemalurgy gave me some trouble as I designed the second and third books of this series. On one hand, I liked the way Hemalurgy worked by stealing powers from Allomancers or Feruchemists and giving them to other people. However, if I was going to limit myself to sixteen metals and be able to steal both Allomancy and Feruchemy, that meant I needed a mechanism to determine which power got stolen. If, for instance, you drove a pewter spike into a person who was both an Allomancer and a Feruchemist, then how would that spike know which power to suck out and grant to the one who would gain it?

As I was toying with how this would work, I realized that I needed to work the kandra and the koloss into this as well. Only, it was ridiculous to assume that the Lord Ruler would kill Allomancers to make koloss. There weren't enough Allomancers, for one thing—plus it would be foolish to lose the power of an Allomancer to gain an inferior tool in a koloss.

So that meant koloss had to be made out of regular people, not Allomancers or Feruchemists. Suddenly I had another set of abilities that Hemalurgy had to be able to steal—the basic pieces of Preservation inside the souls of all men.

Hence the decision that where the spike was placed in the receiver, and how it was used to kill a person, influenced how the power was shaped. Now a pewter spike could steal any of a number of powers, based on how it was used. And regular people could be used instead of Allomancers—however, when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used.

My rationale for this is that if the spike is pulling out the pure power of Preservation—part of the power of all creation—and twisting it, it would change the body of the recipient greatly. Twisting them through use of the twisted power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 17, 2009)

 

 

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

 

Questioner

The people on Scadrial have innate Investiture from Preservation. If someone from another planet, say Roshar, were to get Allomancy, from Hemalurgy or Feruchemy, would that person have to have Stormlight as well as the metal in order to do their--

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. They would just need the metal if you were Hemalurgically getting the ability. Remember, Hemalurgy is basically ripping off a piece of someone else's soul and stapling it to yours. Short circuiting the soul, so to speak... All the pieces of the soul you would need, it is giving you. It has dangerous ramifications, but you wouldn't need Stormlight also.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

 

Moogle

Why can non-Scadrians use Hemalurgy? Don't they need Ruin's sDNA, like Allomancers need Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy is built to be able to be used by anyone. It's about taking and breaking. Ruin doesn't care who does such things

#NookTalks Twitter Q&A with Barnes & Noble (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

 

 

Moderator

Is there such a thing as… voluntary Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Voluntary Hemalurgy? Yes.

Moderator

...Where you can give a power to someone through those sorts of means.

Brandon Sanderson

Through any means, or through Hemalurgic means?

Moderator

Er, explain what you mean by that question. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

In Nalthis, you are giving up your power voluntarily to someone else.

Moderator

Specifically in the context of Scadrial here.

Brandon Sanderson

I mean, can you not imagine a person who's like "Yes I am crazy and will give up my power to this…" you know?

Bystander

But don't the end results negate?

Brandon Sanderson

You can't imagine somebody who would do that? …I am absolutely sure that at some point even in creating Inquisitors there's somebody who would be like, "yes, I will give my life to the Lord Ruler." So, yes?

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

 

 

Questioner

Could you use Hemalurgy to steal Surgebinding?

Brandon:

Absolutely, you could steal Surgebinding with Hemalurgy. *crowd laughs* Booooo, you should be scared of that.

Salt Lake ComicCon FanX 2016 (March 26, 2016)

 

 

 

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do-- to recreate that with um... See I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that's okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bystander

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb--

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like-- It is not your original soul.

Bystander

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

*ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now* But that is what happens with most forms of Investiture in the first place.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

 

 

Questioner

Are Hemalurgic spikes fabrials? Is a body that has been spiked a fabrial? Are koloss and kandra also something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, actually.

Fabrial means specifically a bit of Investiture that has been trapped by a gemstone and then modified to do something else. Hemalurgy is its own thing--though there is a slight similarity. In most Hemalurgy, Investiture keyed to the Identity of someone (a bit of a soul) is ripped off, and then magically grafted onto someone else's soul. Not the same, though I can see the confusion.

Koloss and kandra are similar, though in this case, the soul is mostly just being distorted by using an Invested spike. In the cosmere, the body will attempt to match the soul, and so a twisted soul (Spiritual aspect of a person) can have profound effects on both mind and body.

FAQFriday 2017 (March 10, 2017)

 

 

 

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay cool.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

One does not have to kill someone with Hemalurgy to charge a spike, but it rips off a large part of the soul. The person would not be the same.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

 

 

Questioner

Have your ever thought about how your magic systems would affect a pregnant woman?

Brandon Sanderson

I have given thought to it.

Questioner

...Which system would you say would be safest as a pregnant woman?

Brandon Sanderson

I think Stormlight-- being Invested with Stormlight would be very safe. You would probably be better off than not. Hemalurgy would be very bad.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

 

 

 

Questioner

How does rewriting the Spiritual aspect work?

Brandon Sanderson

...So, it has ramifications through the other two Realms. It can happen. You've seen it happen.

Questioner

That's what happens with kandra, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, to an extent, yes.

Questioner

With the koloss?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, both of them. Hemalurgy is, like, sticking a piece of someone's spirit to another person's spirit and creating a Frankenstein's monster of spirits.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

 

Jack Eaton

Can Hemalurgy steal a Nahel bond? And if so, would that bond be unbreakable for as long as the spike was implanted.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a very dangerous and frightening thing in the cosmere, but it is possible--and the implications of it are something I intend to cover eventually in the books.

General Twitter 2018 (May 25, 2018)

 

 

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

If you have a series of Inquisitors, like a family of Inquisitors having children for generations over...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Would the Hemalurgy influence the sDNA of the children? Is that what you are asking? That is a hypothesis that has merit in the way the magic system works (grin). It is not a supposition to be discarded out of hand.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

 

 

Blainethetrain

Is the access to Allomancy and Feruchemy granted via Hemalurgy heritable?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

 

 

Questioner (on behalf of Yata)

When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson

If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours--

Questioner

The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die--

Brandon Sanderson

Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

Questioner

Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or--

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

[Karger he/him]

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I have a theory that a willing donor may mitigate some of those (due to intent being very important in the Cosmere), and having only one spike doesn’t seem to cause issues - otherwise I doubt Saze would have the Kandra give out Spike earrings. Vin’s Spike earring didn’t really cause her issues until Ruin started to get free.

The spikes Harmony gives out have basically no charge.  You are comparing a pinprick to a gut wound.  Saying Vin did not have issues is not something I think I have ever heard anyone say.  She clearly did.  Trust issues, and paranoia are the top two.  Also Vin was super preservation aliened.  I am not sure a small bit of ruin's investature would make much of a difference the way it would to an average person.

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I know that if I were in line to receive a spike I'd want the guy performing the procedure to be as knowledgeable as possible

If safety was your primary concern I would recommend not getting spiked at all.  Also many people exist who are stupider then you.  I even know some of them.  Mistaking your (in this case I am pretty sure correct) belief for a general consensus that all people(or even a majority) will likely follow is fallacious. 

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

nobody knows enough about Hemalurgic practices to ensure that one is getting the desired attributes

Unless they have read Spook's book which presumably explains everything that one needs to know.

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Children under a certain age will not be able to use medallions. So that is where many hospitals will look for people willing to donate those abilities.

Only the absolute youngest of children will not be able to use medallions and they will not be able to use normal metaminds or burn metals either.

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So posting these WoB in reference to Karger regarding how hemalurgy damages the person spiked and the person spiked from

Thanks! 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

The spikes Harmony gives out have basically no charge.  You are comparing a pinprick to a gut wound.  Saying Vin did not have issues is not something I think I have ever heard anyone say.  She clearly did.  Trust issues, and paranoia are the top two.  Also Vin was super preservation aliened.  I am not sure a small bit of ruin's investature would make much of a difference the way it would to an average person.

Just saw this. To add, Vin had a greater distrust and hatred for the mist because of the spike in her ear. Found that WoB while pulling up the rest. Will need a moment to find it again. Will edit when I get it. 

 

edit: here it is

 

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eight

Killer Mists

The mists kill now. That was a major plot point from book two, so I hope you haven't forgotten it.

Not only was it necessary for the mythology of the world—as will be explained—it was a necessary shift for Vin's personality. This series is about, as I've stated before, the concepts of trust, betrayal, and faith. The mists are the one thing Vin thought she could trust, but now they have turned against her. How she deals with that is a big part of this book.

If you watch throughout the book, Vin has a stronger reaction against the mists than other characters. True, they're worried about the way it's killing people, but Vin is bitter—almost hateful. This is partially because she feels betrayed, but another factor is the taint of Hemalurgy—and therefore Ruin's touch—in her blood.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (July 14, 2009) Edited January 29, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I know that if I were in line to receive a spike I'd want the guy performing the procedure to be as knowledgeable as possible,  and a license would reassure me greatly. 

Hemalurgy has two parts:

1. - Creating a spike (which requires a piece of the right kind of metal going through the heart(?), plus the intent to make a spike)
2. - Placing the spike in one of the right bind points that would work with that kind of spike

The second part is where the lore would be, as Sazed as Harmony reflects in the chapter heading (Ch. 43) of The Hero of Ages: "The art that is unique to Hemalurgy, however, is the knowledge of where to place the spikes."

I would assume that failing in Part 1 would render Part 2 irrelevant: the existence of hemalurgy does not mean that someone putting an ordinary, non-hemalurgic bit of metal into their earlobe (a well-documented bind point) would have any effect other than keeping an earring in.

And, we have a WoB that the intent is necessary for Part 1, but not Part 2 - that a "spike gun" is possible, where a weapon loaded with hemalurgic spikes (created with Intent) that then fired the spikes into the right locations would have the hemalurgic effect forced on the target. (A spike creating dart gun would also work... Eeek.)

What we haven't really seen illustrated is what the effects of putting a hemalurgic spike in the wrong bind point would be, or if the same spike placed in a different point would have different effects. Imagine if putting a hemalurgic spike in the wrong place killed you or warped you instead of, or in addition to granting power? If Vin accidentally jabbed someone accidentally with her earring pin at a random place on the body? It seems very likely it could do something bad. Maybe like those monsters Wax and TenSoon saw in the kandra Homeland in Shadows of Self.

So yeah. I would want a hemalurgist to know what they were doing...

4 hours ago, Agent34 said:

I'm kind of surprised this was only brought up once. Hemalurgy might have wonderful outcomes for society but ultimately you'd be causing a decline in the mental stability of whoever receives a spike even without an eldritch horror invading your mind.

At this point (since we're talking about after Spook wrote "his little book") it'd be Harmony being able to talk to you, not Ruin, so calling Him an "eldritch horror" is a little insulting!

The "mental instability" introduced by hemalurgy, the hole in one's Spiritweb made to allow another bit of Spiritweb from the donor to be jammed in, is a one-time cost (per spike), one that doesn't seem so bad for a small number of spikes. Vin loses and replaces her earring multiple times without ill effect, and I would assume she's not tearing her Spiritweb each time she inserts it so much as reusing the hole that was already there from the first time she put it in.

Edwarn and Telsin both have three spikes each and don't seem very different than what they would otherwise have been as people. Though I guess Harmony could, if he wanted to, pester them non-stop with mental whisperings, it appears He does not.

[Pathfinder]

So just two quick things

15 minutes ago, robardin said:

The "mental instability" introduced by hemalurgy, the hole in one's Spiritweb made to allow another bit of Spiritweb from the donor to be jammed in, is a one-time cost (per spike), one that doesn't seem so bad for a small number of spikes. Vin loses and replaces her earring multiple times without ill effect, and I would assume she's not tearing her Spiritweb each time she inserts it so much as reusing the hole that was already there from the first time she put it in.

So the WoB I posted in a prior post says Vin was "tainted by hemalurgy". The other WoB show for me that hemalurgy itself is bad. True Harmony is in charge now, but Harmony also does not want hemalurgy perpetuated or used. So he certainly thinks there is an issue with it outside his own influence. 

 

edit: oh! also the pathian earring is due to it being out for so long it lost most of its charge. hemalurgic spikes have a half life. they eventually reach a point where they no longer lose power, but it is far far far far diminished

Quote

Edwarn and Telsin both have three spikes each and don't seem very different than what they would otherwise have been as people. Though I guess Harmony could, if he wanted to, pester them non-stop with mental whisperings, it appears He does not.

Telsin does in fact act differently. We see her when she is younger versus as an adult. Wax frequently comments on how cold and angry she acts. That it is unsettling to everyone else in the group. This is different than the way she acted when she was younger in the flashback. As to Edwarn, I don't think we see enough of him to fully know. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Quantus he/him]

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

Hemalurgy has two parts:

1. - Creating a spike (which requires a piece of the right kind of metal going through the heart(?), plus the intent to make a spike)
2. - Placing the spike in one of the right bind points that would work with that kind of spike

The second part is where the lore would be, as Sazed as Harmony reflects in the chapter heading (Ch. 43) of The Hero of Ages: "The art that is unique to Hemalurgy, however, is the knowledge of where to place the spikes."

I would assume that failing in Part 1 would render Part 2 irrelevant: the existence of hemalurgy does not mean that someone putting an ordinary, non-hemalurgic bit of metal into their earlobe (a well-documented bind point) would have any effect other than keeping an earring in.

Both steps require the Knowledge of specific Bind-points.  It just happens that a significant number of them are clustered on and around the Heart.  You can hit the wrong bind point and steal something unintended.  Using application specific spikes makes this a bit less of a danger by filtering out most of the options, so the danger is greatest with Atium which gets 100% of it's selection from the Bind Point since it can steal ANY Power or Trait.  

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

   

[+robardin he/him]

31 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So just two quick things

So the WoB I posted in a prior post says Vin was "tainted by hemalurgy". The other WoB show for me that hemalurgy itself is bad.

What I take the meaning of "Vin was tainted by hemalurgy" to indicate is how the mists of Preservation were repelled by her while she had her earring in, because it was a spike.

It does not mean that Vin was forever changed by ever having used hemalurgy, i.e., that her "spiritual hole" where the spike had fit in had changed her nature permanently, because the mists are once again attracted to her once her spike was removed. Similarly, when Spook pulls free his spike for A-pewter, Ruin just disappears from his perspective; he wasn't "permanently torn" spiritually by the act of having been spiked the one time, otherwise he'd at least hear Ruin as much as someone who was naturally mentally unstable (pre-spike Zane or Vin's mother).

Of course, it IS still "Ruin's power" and it does still operate by killing and spiritually tearing the donor, which Sazed the personality within Harmony would find abhorrent. The question is how much it (still) warps or mentally affects the recipient of a spike after the Catacendre.

I would think that Ruin now being incorporated into Harmony might modulate things like the way Inquisitors and koloss were driven so powerfully to kill, in terms of how having three spikes may or may not be influencing Telsin's or Edwarn's POVs versus what they were before or would have been without them (they were in the Set before acquiring them, so their ruthlessness was already there). If Allomancer Jak's accounts are to be believed (....Er, as I wrote that I literally laughed out loud, but bear with me...), the "full koloss" of Era 2, the koloss-blooded people who accepted the spikes, are not quite the rage-filled kill machines they were in Era 1.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

Welp, Brandon "hemalurgy always hurts you" ends the debate for me (but I don't think it will end in world) I was operating under the assumption that a single spike could benefit without major side effects. Evidently I was wrong.

I still think medallions need hemalurgy, but I think hemalurgy will be discarded as soon as possible.

I should add that I believe in the tenacity of the soul. I don't think anything you could do to the soul could permanently damage it. In the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms definitely. But in the the sceme of the beyond, no.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

What I take the meaning of "Vin was tainted by hemalurgy" to indicate is how the mists of Preservation were repelled by her while she had her earring in, because it was a spike.

It does not mean that Vin was forever changed by ever having used hemalurgy, i.e., that her "spiritual hole" where the spike had fit in had changed her nature permanently, because the mists are once again attracted to her once her spike was removed. Similarly, when Spook pulls free his spike for A-pewter, Ruin just disappears from his perspective; he wasn't "permanently torn" spiritually by the act of having been spiked the one time, otherwise he'd at least hear Ruin as much as someone who was naturally mentally unstable (pre-spike Zane or Vin's mother).

Of course, it IS still "Ruin's power" and it does still operate by killing and spiritually tearing the donor, which Sazed the personality within Harmony would find abhorrent. The question is how much it (still) warps or mentally affects the recipient of a spike after the Catacendre.

I would think that Ruin now being incorporated into Harmony might modulate things like the way Inquisitors and koloss were driven so powerfully to kill, in terms of how having three spikes may or may not be influencing Telsin's or Edwarn's POVs versus what they were before or would have been without them (they were in the Set before acquiring them, so their ruthlessness was already there). If Allomancer Jak's accounts are to be believed (....Er, as I wrote that I literally laughed out loud, but bear with me...), the "full koloss" of Era 2, the koloss-blooded people who accepted the spikes, are not quite the rage-filled kill machines they were in Era 1.

So totally respect how you see it. Just explaining my own interpretation of it. I took that WoB where Brandon said Vin felt "bitter - almost hateful" due to the taint of hemalurgy. For myself grafting a part of someone's very being onto another is going to change you. To me, you certainly aren't the same person you were without it. As to modulating Ruin. Harmony is a king of two separate kingdoms. Yes it is one shard, but it still is Ruin and Preservation with two diametrically opposed intents. Ruin is still (to me) Ruin. Ruin strives for entropy. Breaking down. Its inherent in the power hemalurgy. There is always a power loss. No matter what. To clarify what I mean by taint, or corruption I think is separate from control Ruin exerts. What I am saying is hemalurgy period deteriorates/changes the person. Doesn't matter (to me) whether Ruin is guided by Ati trying to end the world, or Harmony trying to maintain it. The very nature of the power breaks things down. And the very nature of grafting a persons "soul" changes you. Brandon says hemalurgy always hurts. 

As to koloss, Sazed changed them so they breed true. You get a koloss born which are the ones with the grey skin. Since spikes have a half life like isotopes. They weaken greatly at first, then little by little it slows down till they stabilize at a certain massively reduce level. The koloss reuse those spikes and pass them down so they do not make new spikes by killing anyone. Because those spikes are so much weaker than the originals, subsequent generations of koloss have a greater capacity for thought, but at the same time are not as strong and rage filled. But koloss still end up warped and twisted, as per the WoB I posted earlier. 

Basically its not the holder of ruin that determines whether the person using hemalurgy is "changed" or "corrupted" or whatever other word can be used. It is built into the power. Stapling a person's "soul" to yourself or others turns it into a frankenstein like monster. You are putting a person's "essence" where it should not be and forcing your "sou" to accept it. 

35 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Welp, Brandon "hemalurgy always hurts you" ends the debate for me (but I don't think it will end in world) I was operating under the assumption that a single spike could benefit without major side effects. Evidently I was wrong.

I still think medallions need hemalurgy, but I think hemalurgy will be discarded as soon as possible.

I should add that I believe in the tenacity of the soul. I don't think anything you could do to the soul could permanently damage it. In the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms definitely. But in the the sceme of the beyond, no.

I agree that ultimately medallions are good and hopefully it will be able to be switched to exclusively. Hemalurgy on the other hand I feel there are very big problems with. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Just saw this. To add, Vin had a greater distrust and hatred for the mist because of the spike in her ear. Found that WoB while pulling up the rest. Will need a moment to find it again. Will edit when I get it. 

 

edit: here it is

 

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eight

Killer Mists

The mists kill now. That was a major plot point from book two, so I hope you haven't forgotten it.

Not only was it necessary for the mythology of the world—as will be explained—it was a necessary shift for Vin's personality. This series is about, as I've stated before, the concepts of trust, betrayal, and faith. The mists are the one thing Vin thought she could trust, but now they have turned against her. How she deals with that is a big part of this book.

If you watch throughout the book, Vin has a stronger reaction against the mists than other characters. True, they're worried about the way it's killing people, but Vin is bitter—almost hateful. This is partially because she feels betrayed, but another factor is the taint of Hemalurgy—and therefore Ruin's touch—in her blood.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (July 14, 2009)

If you read the full post, you’d see that I said ‘before Ruin started to get free.’

Also, all those spikes were acquired unwillingly and with great pain. Intent matters. A willing donor and a painless death would probably change some of the effects.

And since infants can’t use medallions, you’d need a spike to give them access to Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical gold.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If you read the full post, you’d see that I said ‘before Ruin started to get free.’

No problem. Sorry about that. Though Vin struggled throughout the books prior to Ruin's release with feelings of being a tool of destruction and death

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also, all those spikes were acquired unwillingly and with great pain. Intent matters. A willing donor and a painless death would probably change some of the effects.

One of the WoB I posted earlier mentions that Brandon confirms there were individuals that willingly sacrificed themselves for the lord ruler to use spikes to create inquisitors. He called them crazy. Also multiple WoB I mentioned state hemalurgy messes up the "soul". For me, i read that as it does not matter how willing the donor, or how anesthetized the person is in the physical realm, it does not negate the damage done to the person's "soul" on both ends, donor and receiver. 

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And since infants can’t use medallions, you’d need a spike to give them access to Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical gold.

Based on the WoB I read, I think that is a very very bad idea. Grafting someone's soul onto yourself messes up your own enough as an adult. Imagine as a child. 

[Karger he/him]

22 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And since infants can’t use medallions, you’d need a spike to give them access to Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical gold.

Infants also can't tap metalminds or burn metals so the point is moot.

[NameIess]

49 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

No problem. Sorry about that. Though Vin struggled throughout the books prior to Ruin's release with feelings of being a tool of destruction and death

Ruin was still able to influence people prior to being released. For example, he made Vin feel attached to the earring, so that she wouldn't throw it away.

[StanLemon]

I think the cons too greatly outweigh the pros. One, it damages the recipient, no matter how careful you are. Two, you still have to spike the person while they are alive and while I personally am ok with medically assisted suicide, I think it should be done as humanely as possible and spiking doesn't strike me as that. And three, once the knowledge of Hemalurgy becomes public, it opens a floodgate of abuse.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Infants also can't tap metalminds or burn metals so the point is moot.

There is instinctive burning and tapping. We’ve seen both, but primarily burning. Allomantic pewter can definitely be burned instinctively so an infant could burn it.

@Pathfinder As I said earlier, the people who believe in the soul probably won’t do it. Someone who believes they cease to exist after death is far more likely to try.

I think a temporary patch to allow an infant to use Pewter (Allomantic pewter spikes are removable) allowing them to survive, would be worth the risk.

Vin’s struggles are perfectly normal; not everything can be blamed on the Spike. She spent her life running around, being abused, and threatened with abandonment. That would mess up anyone, spike or no spike!

[Karger he/him]

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There is instinctive burning and tapping. We’ve seen both, but primarily burning. Allomantic pewter can definitely be burned instinctively so an infant could burn it.

That is a special skill.  Sazed is surprised Vin can do it.  However if everyone can instinctively tap or burn then they can use medallions the same way.  Spikes are not necessary.

12 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Vin’s struggles are perfectly normal; not everything can be blamed on the Spike. She spent her life running around, being abused, and threatened with abandonment. That would mess up anyone, spike or no spike!

We have author confirmation that this was not all just natural.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is a special skill.  Sazed is surprised Vin can do it.  However if everyone can instinctively tap or burn then they can use medallions the same way.  Spikes are not necessary.

Sazed wasn't sure if she was used to allomancy to burn instinctively yet. On the other hand, Elend started instinctively burning within seconds of becoming Mistborn.

Also you're assuming with that statement that spikes aren't involved with medallions which lots of people doubt.

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

We have author confirmation that this was not all just natural.

I am fairly certain that Vin was being whispered to by Ruin. Constantly hearing her brothers voice in her head? Ruin was able to exert some influence over spiked people while imprisoned, at least enough to control Marsh, so influencing Vin wouldn't be a problem.

[Karger he/him]

18 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Sazed wasn't sure if she was used to allomancy to burn instinctively yet. On the other hand, Elend started instinctively burning within seconds of becoming Mistborn.

Elend is hardly an average Mistborn.

18 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Also you're assuming with that statement that spikes aren't involved with medallions which lots of people doubt.

And we have zero actual evidence of.  It is a workable theory that someone proposed but it is not by any means definitive.  If another method to gain the benefits exists then this entire argument becomes fairly pointless.   I am not going to assume that something is true without evidence just because of a lot of other people do.  That is a particularly problematic way of thinking particularly in the digital age.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

22 minutes ago, Karger said:

And we have zero actual evidence of.  It is a workable theory that someone proposed but it is not by any means definitive.  If another method to gain the benefits exists then this entire argument becomes fairly pointless.   I am not going to assume that something is true without evidence just because of a lot of other people do.  That is a particularly problematic way of thinking particularly in the digital age.

I was addressing your statement that "spikes are not necessary" something your willing to state as fact without proof. At least I qualified my statement.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Llstml said:

Ruin was still able to influence people prior to being released. For example, he made Vin feel attached to the earring, so that she wouldn't throw it away.

True, but he wasn't focused on her 24/7 and then there is the thing about her brother that I will reply to later in this post

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There is instinctive burning and tapping. We’ve seen both, but primarily burning. Allomantic pewter can definitely be burned instinctively so an infant could burn it.

Well Elend instinctfully burned lerasium making him a stronger mistborn than Vin, and having a greater connection to Preservation. So I am not sure we can assume that stands for everyone, including infants.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@Pathfinder As I said earlier, the people who believe in the soul probably won’t do it. Someone who believes they cease to exist after death is far more likely to try.

To clarify, I acknowledge at this stage Scadrial does not have the knowledge of the cognitive realm to make these informed decisions. However, if they gain the knowledge (either via travel to the cognitive realm, or speaking to Harmony, or via a Worldhopper), I see it becoming an ethical issue even if you do not believe in the soul and the beyond. We know the cognitive self exists briefly after the physical body expires. We know it is capable of speech and reasoned thought. We know it can feel pain. And finally via WoB we know it is torn up and disappears faster because of hemalurgy. So the ethical question becomes, at what point do "you" cease legally to be alive? When the physical body expires only? Is your cognitive self not legally you? Because if it is, then you just committed cruel and unusual punishment to an inmate against his or her wishes. Regardless what happens to that cognitive self afterwards. Whether it goes to a "beyond" or discorporates into investiture, or returns to some cosmic cycle like in buddism (all Brandon mentioned he wanted to keep open to whoever believed whatever). You can believe you cease to exist after death, and still reason the cognitive self that sticks around a bit longer is still you, and that cognitive self is suffering after a chunk of it has been ripped away. I don't have to believe in an afterlife or god to not want the end of my life to be filled with pain. Just because I believe I will not longer exist after death, does not mean I want those moments before non-existence to be suffering. 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think a temporary patch to allow an infant to use Pewter (Allomantic pewter spikes are removable) allowing them to survive, would be worth the risk.

So removal of spikes are not necesarily that easy,. They would leave scarring on the infant due to the self trying to force the soul to align with what was grafted on them, and finally there is the risk to (especially with an infant) of the trauma of removing a spike would kill the infant. In Vin's case the purpose of the spike was only to provide a link to Ruin and increase her bronze seeking a negligible degree. Once you get to pewter powers, you are dealing with parts of the core body (shoulders, chest, etc). Removing pewter's ability and leaving a hole in a child's body? I think it would be very difficult for the child to survive. That is not an ear piercing by any means. 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Vin’s struggles are perfectly normal; not everything can be blamed on the Spike. She spent her life running around, being abused, and threatened with abandonment. That would mess up anyone, spike or no spike!

Of course it would. But we also have statements from the author saying being spiked does in fact affect you. We have words from the author that the spike did in fact affect Vin. So sure she had a horrible childhood, but to me that does not preclude the influence of the spike from hemalurgy alone (forgetting Ati). We have the author say hemalurgy itself is bad. We have him saying its evil even. 

53 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Also you're assuming with that statement that spikes aren't involved with medallions which lots of people doubt.

So I know I was not part of the conversation, and I am not joining this part, just clarifying my own stance on it. If spikes are not involved in medallion creation, then I feel hemalurgy should stop. if spikes are involved in medallion creation then now that we have medallions and medallions can be use to create more medallions, then I do not see the reason to continue hemalurgy. 

51 minutes ago, Llstml said:

I am fairly certain that Vin was being whispered to by Ruin. Constantly hearing her brothers voice in her head? Ruin was able to exert some influence over spiked people while imprisoned, at least enough to control Marsh, so influencing Vin wouldn't be a problem.

Vin didn't always hear her brother's voice in her head. Remember he only died around the time of Camon's crew. But her brother was very much alive and traveled with her for many a year raising her. Years Ruin wouldn't be the brother's voice in her head. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

True, but he wasn't focused on her 24/7 and then there is the thing about her brother that I will reply to later in this post

Well Elend instinctfully burned lerasium making him a stronger mistborn than Vin, and having a greater connection to Preservation. So I am not sure we can assume that stands for everyone, including infants.

To clarify, I acknowledge at this stage Scadrial does not have the knowledge of the cognitive realm to make these informed decisions. However, if they gain the knowledge (either via travel to the cognitive realm, or speaking to Harmony, or via a Worldhopper), I see it becoming an ethical issue even if you do not believe in the soul and the beyond. We know the cognitive self exists briefly after the physical body expires. We know it is capable of speech and reasoned thought. We know it can feel pain. And finally via WoB we know it is torn up and disappears faster because of hemalurgy. So the ethical question becomes, at what point do "you" cease legally to be alive? When the physical body expires only? Is your cognitive self not legally you? Because if it is, then you just committed cruel and unusual punishment to an inmate against his or her wishes. Regardless what happens to that cognitive self afterwards. Whether it goes to a "beyond" or discorporates into investiture, or returns to some cosmic cycle like in buddism (all Brandon mentioned he wanted to keep open to whoever believed whatever). You can believe you cease to exist after death, and still reason the cognitive self that sticks around a bit longer is still you, and that cognitive self is suffering after a chunk of it has been ripped away. I don't have to believe in an afterlife or god to not want the end of my life to be filled with pain. Just because I believe I will not longer exist after death, does not mean I want those moments before non-existence to be suffering. 

So removal of spikes are not necesarily that easy,. They would leave scarring on the infant due to the self trying to force the soul to align with what was grafted on them, and finally there is the risk to (especially with an infant) of the trauma of removing a spike would kill the infant. In Vin's case the purpose of the spike was only to provide a link to Ruin and increase her bronze seeking a negligible degree. Once you get to pewter powers, you are dealing with parts of the core body (shoulders, chest, etc). Removing pewter's ability and leaving a hole in a child's body? I think it would be very difficult for the child to survive. That is not an ear piercing by any means. 

Of course it would. But we also have statements from the author saying being spiked does in fact affect you. We have words from the author that the spike did in fact affect Vin. So sure she had a horrible childhood, but to me that does not preclude the influence of the spike from hemalurgy alone (forgetting Ati). We have the author say hemalurgy itself is bad. We have him saying its evil even. 

So I know I was not part of the conversation, and I am not joining this part, just clarifying my own stance on it. If spikes are not involved in medallion creation, then I feel hemalurgy should stop. if spikes are involved in medallion creation then now that we have medallions and medallions can be use to create more medallions, then I do not see the reason to continue hemalurgy. 

Vin didn't always hear her brother's voice in her head. Remember he only died around the time of Camon's crew. But her brother was very much alive and traveled with her for many a year raising her. Years Ruin wouldn't be the brother's voice in her head. 

I think some people will take it the other way; a piece of my soul will continue to exist after the rest has dissipated. Prior to donating you would have to be informed of all potential side effects - including that one.

Allomantic pewter spikes go in the shoulders, and can be removed without killing the person. Yes, it will scar. So will my three year olds trache, when it’s removed. Would it have been better for her to die than be scarred? Considering the alternative is for the child to never have a chance to live, I think the risks (and the scars) are worth it.

Regarding instinctive burning:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Burning metals by instinct, by the way, is something I had to add to the book for scenes like this. I had to be able to have characters be able to heal quickly–in a relative sort of way–so that I could keep the pacing where I wanted it. That meant long term, quick healing, if that makes any sense. I made it possible for an Allomancer's body to use metals–particularly pewter and tin–when they needed them.

 

I knew I had a source for this! It’s the annotations, which I read AGES ago. I love the Arcanum. It makes finding these things much easier.

The closest I can find to Hemalurgy (as in the system itself, not the users) being evil is that it was conceived as the evil system in the Allomantic, Feruchemic, Hemalurgic trinity. Which is not the same as saying it’s evil. If you have a WOB staying otherwise, please post it.

Brandon has said numerous times that the Shards and their systems are not inherently evil (or good), but some more easily lend themselves to it than others. Hemalurgy definitely falls into that category.

As an aside, so you know my general perspective: As an Orthodox Jew I am against ending any life prematurely - for any reason. That said, I’m also a classic liberal, which means I strongly believe that everyone has the right to make their own choices (so long as they do not directly adversely effect others, obviously), however much I disagree with them. So I am for legalizing a lot of things I personally disagree with!

The latter leads me to the opinion that, if someone wants to donate part of their soul - for whatever reason- they should be allowed to do so. The former is why I feel that you should try to preserve life, even if there is a grave risk. So I’d be willing to use an Allomantic pewter spike to try and save an infant’s life, but I’d also allow someone to choose to end their life with a spike. 

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I was addressing your statement that "spikes are not necessary" something your willing to state as fact without proof. At least I qualified my statement.

"Our current understanding which may be flawed does not indicate..."  Should not have to preface such a statement since any summation I make will be based on the same.  The fact that your statement had a qualifier does not make it a more valid argument.  Either way Pathfinder's point makes this moot.

49 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The latter leads me to the opinion that, if someone wants to donate part of their soul - for whatever reason- they should be allowed to do so.

But does that donation really benefit the person who is on the other end? 

[Tglassy]

I've wondered if the Excisors that the Southern Scadrians have is a device which includes an unkeyed, unsealed metalmind created by Kelsior which allows one who touches it to gain Gold Feruchemy, and then get spiked to take their normal power, while at the same time healing them of any damage, including their soul.  This would allow their power to be taken out, via the spike, but they would not die.  Either this would take their power from them, or they would gain their power gain when their soul was healed, allowing for a repeat.

 

Either way, the end result would be a spike but no death and no permanent harm done to the donor.  It would even be a way to punish a metal born: just take their power from them and give it to someone else.  If that is what an Excisor is, then the resulting spikes could be how they make the medallions, or at least be part of the process of doing so.  If the Excisor also allowed them to drain their identity while tapping Health, then the spike wouldn't even be keyed to their soul, really.  They'd drain identity, tap gold, then get spiked, and once the spike is pulled out, they'd tap identity so the gold could fix their spirit web.  

 

But, I don't know how Nicrosil comes in to play.  Nicrosil is what the medallions are made of (the other metals are just for convenience).  Nicrosil stores Investiture, or the ability to use it, like Copper stores memories.  So, the Excisor could simply be a complex medallion like device that allows you to store Identity while simultaneously granting the power to store Investiture. This lets any Ferring or Misting who comes into contact with the Excisor to store their identity and then store their ability to use their normal power in the Nicrosil of a Medallion.  This makes more sense to me, though I feel like Hemalurgy is used in this process as well.  The problem the Northerner's scientists have is that they don't have a full feruchemist and Mistborn to test their theories on all this.  The Southerners had Kel, who was a Fullborn from all his spikes (likely scavenged from long dead Inquisitors), and he would have been able to make the Excisor, granting the ability for others to make the medallions.  

 

As for whether Spook was right, that's hard.  On the one hand, I agree that when a Metalborn dies, it's a horrible waste, and if they can leave their power for someone else, then that's beneficial.  Especially to criminals, as a form of capital punishment.  But on the flip side, the damage done to one's soul...i've often wondered if we could see our own souls, and the damage our own addictions and vices do to us, if we'd continue to pursue them...

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

37 minutes ago, Karger said:

"Our current understanding which may be flawed does not indicate..."  Should not have to preface such a statement since any summation I make will be based on the same.  The fact that your statement had a qualifier does not make it a more valid argument.  Either way Pathfinder's point makes this moot.

I wasn't making an argument? The only thing I said was that there was doubt that medallions don't need spikes somewhere in their creation/use. You said "spikes are not necessary". With no proof or evidence when we know nothing about how they're made. All I did was say there's doubt about how they're made. I agree with Pathfinder. (Assuming you don't need to spike to create new medallions.)

Edit: I wrote the above, but waited before posting to reread the older posts. I see I might have miss interpreted your original statement. Perhaps you meant your statement more narrowly then I was thinking. If you were thinking that since we have the medallions already, there will be no need for future spiking and thus spikes are not necessary, it make more sense to me. I was thinking broadly. If spikes were used at anytime during their crelation then they are necessary.