Autonomy's Intent and Sand Mastery

[Chiberty]

Most of the magic systems make sense with their respective Shard's intent: *

Spoiler

Allomancers are preserved while using Allomancy because Preservation directly supplies the power, Hemalurgy ruins things, Radiants say oaths, Breath is endowed, and the Old Magic cultivates you.

But the way Sand Mastery is used doesn't make much sense for Autonomy. Chaos has suggested that Autonomy's Intent applies in how Sand Masters exercise their autonomy in Overmastering to gain more power. However, this application's relevance is a stretch. It would be more geared to a Shardic Intent of something closer to Sacrifice.

Rather, I suggest that Autonomy's Intent applies in how the sand is controlled.

Quote

It was as if the sand had its own consciousness--a consciousness that had no form until he gave it direction. However, with the slightest command from him, it moved, seeming to understand his orders without his needing to complete the thought. Holding the sand somehow expanded his mind. The sand itself became his mind--not in a sense of ability to think or reason, but more in the way it processed sensual information. It divided his concentration, allowing his mind to focus on several different tasks at once.

Up until that moment, Kenton had never understood the true potential of sand mastery. With so many ribbons hovering around him, sand mastery became less focused on control or domination. He didn't master the sand so much as become a part of it. One being.

This description of Sand Mastery is suspiciously similar to how Autonomy's avatars seem to be: autonomous entities, each with their own consciousness, but in a way, still one, shown in the Oathbringer letters when

Spoiler

Patji, an avatar of Autonomy, refers to itself as "we" or "us." 

 

*This would have probably been a better post for Cosmere Discussion, but that quote from White Sand prose fit way too well for me to not use it.

[Honorless he/him]

Sacrifice fits better as an alternative name for Endowment, imo with how disturbing the whole system of BioChroma and Returning is.

I think the effect of the Investiture system fits with the particular Shardworld as much as the Intent of the Shard residing on it, foci much like the natural Surges, metals and colour. The system of Sand Mastery would probably reflect its Shard via how it is accessed or how its users are initiated into it, going by Khriss' comment. Everyone has the capacity to Master but one has to train. That fits nicely with Autonomy's Intent, I think.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Honorless

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

Sacrifice fits better as an alternative name for Endowment

I have sacrifice as my antiendowment name.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Sacrifice fits better as an alternative name for Endowment, imo with how disturbing the whole system of BioChroma and Returning is.

I think the effect of the Investiture system fits with the particular Shardworld as much as the Intent of the Shard residing on it, foci much like the natural Surges, metals and colour. The system of Sand Mastery would probably reflect its Shard via how it is accessed or how its users are initiated into it, going by Khriss' comment. Everyone has the capacity to Master but one has to train. That fits nicely with Autonomy's Intent, I think.

I wasn't suggesting Sacrifice as a Shard; I was just using it in saying that Overmastery is not very related to the intent of Autonomy. I agree that the magic systems all reflect the resident Shard. In fact, that is Brandon-confirmed (I can't find the WoB right now). I was suggesting that the way it is reflected in Sand Mastery is how each ribbon has some semblance of its own consciousness.

As a side note, not everybody does have the capacity to Master. In the GN, Kenton tries to show Khriss how, but she couldn't do it.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Ookla the Chicken

[Honorless he/him]

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Chicken said:

As a side note, not everybody does have the capacity to Master. In the GN, Kenton tries to show Khriss how, but she couldn't do it.

I think that might have something to do with her Skycolor

[Weltall]

Khriss isn't the only one. We're not sure what exactly the Initiation conditions are for Sand Mastery other than the Elantris 10A Ars Arcanum drawing a distinction between it and Scadrial where bloodline is a determinative factor, suggesting it's something else at work. We know that other children fail the test to be admitted into the Diem (which requires a complete inability to make the sand react) so it's not something literally anyone can do, and we know that none of Paxton's other children could Master either. In that specific case it's probably because there's some sort of sDNA interference going on due to Kenton and his siblings being of mixed parentage, but there are enough people who don't join the Diem who would otherwise probably have loved the lifestyle its members enjoyed prior to the start of the series if it had been an option to make it clear that there are some limitations even among those of purely Daysider heritage.

[Honorless he/him]

Huh, I didn't consider those factors. I assumed Darksider blood, specifically Skycolors sDNA might interfere with Mastery.

[Eternal Khol he/him]

On 12/15/2019 at 2:05 PM, ChickenLiberty said:

Most of the magic systems make sense with their respective Shard's intent: *

  Reveal hidden contents

Allomancers are preserved while using Allomancy because Preservation directly supplies the power, Hemalurgy ruins things, Radiants say oaths, Breath is endowed, and the Old Magic cultivates you.

But the way Sand Mastery is used doesn't make much sense for Autonomy. Chaos has suggested that Autonomy's Intent applies in how Sand Masters exercise their autonomy in Overmastering to gain more power. However, this application's relevance is a stretch. It would be more geared to a Shardic Intent of something closer to Sacrifice.

Rather, I suggest that Autonomy's Intent applies in how the sand is controlled.

This description of Sand Mastery is suspiciously similar to how Autonomy's avatars seem to be: autonomous entities, each with their own consciousness, but in a way, still one, shown in the Oathbringer letters when

  Reveal hidden contents

Patji, an avatar of Autonomy, refers to itself as "we" or "us." 

 

*This would have probably been a better post for Cosmere Discussion, but that quote from White Sand prose fit way too well for me to not use it.

I saw a WoB that stated that the Intent has to do with the way the Magic system is initiated rather than what the magic does

 

So stop trying to look for Autonomy's Intent in sand mastery and its functions and start looking for for how its initiated

[Honorless he/him]

10 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

I saw a WoB that stated that the Intent has to do with the way the Magic system is initiated rather than what the magic does

 

So stop trying to look for Autonomy's Intent in sand mastery and its functions and start looking for for how its initiated

Yeah, but we don't know how a Sand Master is initiated, only a list of Investiture systems that it differs from, those from Scadrial, Sel and Vax. And of those, we don't know much of the second and nothing of the last. 

[Chiberty]

20 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

So stop trying to look for Autonomy's Intent in sand mastery and its functions and start looking for for how its initiated

That's exactly what I did. I didn't say anything about what Mastery can do, just how it is controlled, which is a form of it being initiated. It's not how the Sand Master is initiated, true, but it is how the use of the magic is initiated. I don't think the WoB you're talking about made a distinction between those two.

Edit:

Quote

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

He says that it has to do with the way is obtained, but allomancy is obtained through inheritance and snapping, which is not included in his example. His example describes it as the way the magic works (allomancy works by using Preservation's power as a substitute, preserving the allomancer's own strength). For Sand Mastery, I extrapolated off of his example, suggesting that Autonomy is relevant because Sand Mastery works by controlling sand by making it into entities similar to Autonomy's avatars.

Edited April 9, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[Eternal Khol he/him]

36 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

For Sand Mastery, I extrapolated off of his example, suggesting that Autonomy is relevant because Sand Mastery works by controlling sand by making it into entities similar to Autonomy's avatars.

I never realized how similar the sand and Avatars until I read all of your post. In the that first quote you posted with kenton describing what sand mastery is like, you could just replace with the word "sand" with "avatar" and its like a perfect description of an avatar. Without really know what they are of course

I switched "sand" for "avatar"

"It was as if the Avatar had its own consciousness--a consciousness that had no form until he gave it direction. However, with the slightest command from him, it moved, seeming to understand his orders without his needing to complete the thought. Holding the Avatar somehow expanded his mind. The Avatar itself became his mind--not in a sense of ability to think or reason, but more in the way it processed sensual information. It divided his concentration, allowing his mind to focus on several different tasks at once."

Edited April 9, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Honorless he/him]

7 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

"It was as if the Avatar had its own consciousness--a consciousness that had no form until he gave it direction. However, with the slightest command from him, it moved, seeming to understand his orders without his needing to complete the thought. Holding the Avatar somehow expanded his mind. The Avatar itself became his mind--not in a sense of ability to think or reason, but more in the way it processed sensual information. It divided his concentration, allowing his mind to focus on several different tasks at once."

I do not believe Autonomy's Avatars are like that, they're not hiveminds or automata, or at least not all of them. From OB epigraph letters they seem to be at least somewhat distinct individuals with differing opinions but refer to themselves with a collective pronoun. I do see the narrative connection the OP intended to show though. 

[Eternal Khol he/him]

5 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

I do not believe Autonomy's Avatars are like that, they're not hiveminds or automata, or at least not all of them. From OB epigraph letters they seem to be at least somewhat distinct individuals with differing opinions but refer to themselves with a collective pronoun. I do see the narrative connection the OP intended to show though. 

Im referring to the ones that aren't aware/their own being

Brandon said that some of the Avatars aren't aware but Bavadin always is. 

That kinda fits into this

"It was as if the sand had its own consciousness--a consciousness that had no form until he gave it direction."

"The Avatar itself became his mind--not in a sense of ability to think or reason, but more in the way it processed sensual information. It divided his concentration, allowing his mind to focus on several different tasks at once."

Edited April 9, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Honorless he/him]

Thought I should link WoBs on Avatars for future visitors to the thread: https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=Avatars%2Bsome

[Eternal Khol he/him]

Back to sand mastery.

 

sand mastery starts with the Bond.

You give the sand some water and it reacts and then the user pulls investiture straight from the Spiritual Realm to control said sand.

You have to give water to the sand to initiate the bond.

Anytime you give the sand water, it creates a reaction. Even if the sand isnt being controlled. 

In the prologue of Whitesand when the initiates are proving they can master, kenton only make a little spark. Like all he was able to do was give it a little bit of water and not control it.

Khriss wasnt able to get any reaction out of the sand when she tried to master which makes me think she was never able to do the 1st step which is bonding the sand/giving it water

So how do you get initiated and be able to give the sand water and make the bond?

 

 

 

"Certain people can control this reaction, using the water from their own bodies to forge a brief Cognitive bond. They can draw Investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the Spiritual Realm, and use that to control the sand."

Edited April 9, 2020 by Eternal Khol