Knight of Iron Posted December 12, 2019 Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 A little thing I thought of. Essentially the gist of this is you choose an evil Stormlight Archive character and make a case for them. You set up a nice-sounding argument that would leave the reader like, "Oh, hey, maybe they aren't so bad after all." You can also make a case against a mostly good Stormlight Archive character, setting them up as some sort of secret villain. As a tip, do NOT mention any evil the evil person may have or any good the good person may have. You present the facts unfairly. Or fairly. Whatever you want. For example, I present to you a case for Odium. 1) He doesn't necessarily have an evil goal.It is Rayse’s ultimate goal to become the sole and most powerful god in the cosmere. But is this necessary evil? Not out of necessity, at least. It could be possible that Odium is just trying to take over the cosmere to try and make the cosmere a better place. But the other Shards wouldn't have it. Preservation just preserving things forever, Ruin just ruining things, Honor and his oaths (no matter what), Ambition… well, perhaps Odium has a good reason to believe all these clashing Intents are not good for the cosmere. He probably just wants to rule everything so he can to fix up the cosmere’s problems. I mean, he even says in a perfect world, he wouldn’t have had to kill his fellow Shards. 2) He can appear as a grandfatherly, kind, and reasonable old man. He manages to treat Dalinar with respect and kindness, so even if it was faked, it is still likely that there is some amount of kindness somewhere in his soul. There has to be. Plus, he even offers to be reasonable with Dalinar, and he sure seemed reasonable! Anyways, he can’t be all bad if he can appear as if he was everyone’s grandpa! 3) He has been severely corrupted by his Shard. Yes, I know he was not much of a nice man before choosing the Shard of Odium, and may have even had evil intentions before the Shattering even occurred. But, however, we can’t blame Rayse for exactly everything he has done. By this point, his Shard’s intent, Odium, has become who Rayse is, with some minor tweaks on the interpretation of the Shardic powers. Maybe the interpretation that Odium is passion and not just hatred was Rayse’s doing in an effort to redeem himself. Maybe Rayse really regrets taking up the Shard by now but there really isn’t anything he can do about it except let the hatred consume him. Maybe, in the end, Rayse will beat Odium by splintering himself in one last act of redemption. Conclusion: He's just a slightly confused and well-intentioned immortal god of passion that wants to save the cosmere from its disharmonious ways. He has kindness, reason, and hates destroying Shards as much as the next guy, but he is smart enough to know it must be done. Any evilness or corruptness? That's just his Shard's intent! He can't be directly blamed for that. Also guys do not destroy other people's arguments this is just for fun. Or for making a case for actually misunderstood characters. Anyways. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eluvianii Posted December 12, 2019 Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 A case against Kaladin: Lighteyes: His hatred for them is inhuman, he can't even be near one without glaring at them. Oh sure, he treated Laral and Shallan alright, but they are both pretty girls, and as soon as he saw that he lost his chance, he started ignoring them. There were clearly some hidden motives there. Amaram: Can a person really hate another so much that they keep a desire to kill for a year? He even threw away all his plans just for a chance to kill him. What plans you ask? Well... The Kholins: A good family that was kind to him from the beginning. He resisted himself at first, but then saw that they were his chance to do things his way. The best way to get power is to stay close to it after all. Elhokar: Once more his hatred almost ruined all his plans. The moment he hears about a plan to kill the king he almost jumped to his feet. Of course, that wouldn't look good on the eyes of the other Kholins but getting rid of a king surely would be the fastest way to become one, right? This logic was wrong of course, as his judgement was flawed by his craving for blood. He realized that in the end and kept going with his original plan. Gavinor: Of course, Kaladin got what he wanted in the end and Elhokar died. And left a son. Who's the first to run to pick him up? Kaladin of course. What would be better than to get even closer to the royal family by earning the trust and affection of a young and suceptible child? Conclusion: Kaladin is a potential dictator that will kill every lighteyes on Roshar given the chance. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rask Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 A case for Gaz. I know this is kinda cheating because he's been a little bit sympathetic ever since his POV in book one, but I really think Gaz as one of Shalan's squires, and later perhaps a radiant, would be super cool! Either that or he nobly sacrifices himself for some great cause, I'm happy with whichever. 4 hours ago, Ookla the Evil Penguin said: Gavinor: Of course, Kaladin got what he wanted in the end and Elhokar died. And left a son. Who's the first to run to pick him up? Kaladin of course. What would be better than to get even closer to the royal family by earning the trust and affection of a young and suceptible child? Wow Ookla the Evil Penguin, the other points make a little sense even if I don't personally agree with most of them, but you must really hate Kaladin if he can't even rescue a kid without it being part of some sinister scheme! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eluvianii Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, Rask said: Wow Ookla the Evil Penguin, the other points make a little sense even if I don't personally agree with most of them, but you must really hate Kaladin if he can't even rescue a kid without it being part of some sinister scheme! Well, I understood the thread as trying to make a good guy look bad even if he wasn't and vice versa, so that's what I did, not that I really believe he's bad you know. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rask Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Evil Penguin said: Well, I understood the thread as trying to make a good guy look bad even if he wasn't and vice versa, so that's what I did, not that I really believe he's bad you know. Sorry, don't mind me. Just taking my love on Kaladin too seriously! :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 Okay, a case for Amara... you know, I’ll do Moash instead. Killing Elhokar Elhokar is the king of a society that is sexist, racist and authoritarian. Moash is rebelling against this scummy dictator, who only cares about himself, his son, and a stormin’ drawing. In any other scenario, Moash would be praised as the humanitarian hero he is, but because we are reading from very biased POVs, we are misled. Furthermore, Moash is incredibly honorable and merciful. When he has struck down this petty, childish, cowardly ”king” he stabs him through the eye to end his suffering. Also, the salute to Kaladin is there to remind of what Bridge 4 was meant to be: a symbol of freedom from the dirty lighteyed opressors. Not the Kholins cheerleading-squad. Betraying Kaladin Moash never betrayed Kaladin. He joined a just cause, serving national hero, and master assassin Graves. With his great persuasive abilities, he made Kaladin join too. But Kaladin is spineless and lacks Moashs immense bravery, and thus, betrayed Moashs trust, and saved the tyrant from just retribution at the hands of the two saviors of Alethkar. But this scenario has been spun, to make Kaladin look like he is heroic. Only because he can fly. But Moash persists, even when facing flyism (racism against people who can’t fly). Being a douche Moash isn’t a douche. Moash is love. Moash is justice. Moash is mercy, kindness and comfy shoes. Moash is basically pure greatness. Just look at how he helped the Singers in OB! How he became a wanted man for opposing a tyrant! How he befriended the one guy in Bridge 4 who always was by himself, alone, but who later betrayed him: Kaladin. Killing Jezrien Jezrien, the Great King, worshipped by everyone. But also the guy who broke his promise, betrayed mankind, lied to them, left Taln for a millenia of brutal torture, contributed to the killing of billions of innocent Thunderclasts, supported the conquering of the Singer homelands, is a central figure in a discriminating and evil society, and turned to drinking instead of helping his fellow men. Remind me of why killing him was bad again. As you can see, Moash is no villain, but a Rosharan Robin Hood. He kills the rich, and doesn’t kill the poor. #lovemoash 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of Iron Posted December 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) I've got another one. I present a case against Jasnah Kholin. 1) She kept the Voidbringer secret a secret for just long enough that when it finally got out, it was mostly too late She claims no one would've believed her, sure, but really? The whole world of scholars look up to her, and she expects us to believe that nobody would believe that one of the most highly-renowned scholars, a heretic, believed the Parshendi were Voidbringers. Yeah, right. A heretic worried about the threat of Voidbringers? That only gives it more credibility. She must've withheld it for some time so that the Alethi could push the Parshendi to the heightening of their desperation. She wanted the Voidbringers to come back all along. Why? Maybe she's evil. Or maybe she just wanted to study them while they destroyed the world. 2) She was gone during all the events preceding the Everstorm After practically guaranteeing nobody would be safe from the parsh when the Voidbringers returned, she left the Physical Realm. Sure, sure, she was investigating but not learning much. Doubt it. I mean, it's Jasnah we're talking about here. She knew all along, she saw the signs, and so she abandoned everyone. When her plans didn't work as well as she expected them too, she came back right when all the immediate danger was over. Awfully suspicious. 3) She has a tendency to try and kill people for not very good reasons First off, I'll bring up her past in that she hired an assassin to, eventually, kill off Aesudan. Why? Probably not for good reasons, that's why! Probably just because she was annoying. What a dumb reason to kill someone. Then there's the issue of Renarin. Sure, he was acting all suspiciously with his corrupted spren and Voidish seeing the future, but he's still her cousin. She didn't even give him a chance to explain himself. The only reason she didn't was because she remembered that she had evil purposes, so therefore Renarin became a very useful tool in her evil plans. All this, not to mention the time she Soulcasted those dudes (they hadn't even done anything yet!), purposely leading them to her. To satisfy her bloodthirst, clearly. Conclusion: Jasnah Kholin is an outright liar, a deceiver, and a cool, calm, and calculated murderer who seeks to bring in the end of the world as quickly as possible, endangering the lives of those she pretends to love while saving her own skin. All for what is likely scholarly purposes. Side note: Imagine if we get some of this stuff right, that we are actually picking up on legit foreshadowing and exposing his plot twists, lol. Edited December 13, 2019 by Knight of Iron fix grammer 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 This is a very good post considering how much some of them anger me by reflex. Let me try my hand at one. The Case Against: Honor He betrayed the Shards Sure it wasn't a true binding agreement when the original 16 decided to go their separate ways after the Shattering, but they did agree and he immediately ignored it, taking his wife to Roshar. This becomes an established pattern for the supposed God of Oaths. He Betrayed the Singers So he goes to Roshar to be worshipped by Singers, yet as soon as humanity comes along he abandoned his first loyalty, not defending the rightful owners of the land when the humans overstepped their boundaries. He even directed his spren to stop bonds with those who worshipped him first. He Betrayed the Heralds Sure they asked for the Oathpact originally, but Honor was human once. He knew what they'd be subjected to when caught by Odium's forces, he knew or should have known that they'd never be able to hold out forever, and yet he allowed the Heralds to go through with their foolish plan and not even make contingencies for when they would inevitably fail. He Betrayed Humanity and the Spren His second set of worshippers, Humans, were granted many gifts in the fight against his first set of worshippers. But when they are in the fight of their lives he suddenly gets the sick notion to tell these same humans that they've been doing everything wrong all along and that they're destined to destroy another world like they did to Ashyn. He frightens his own side so bad that he led these same humans to lobotomize an entire sapient race and kill thousands of spren allies. Conclusion Honor isn't the best boss to work for. His track record is littered with betrayal after betrayal. The God of Oaths seems to break his word shockingly much more often than his Intent should allow for. At this point even Odium keeps his word more. Why are we rooting for this guy? He will not answer loyalty with loyalty, only more betrayal of his staunchest supporters. Plus he sucks at Futuresight. Get him outta here! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 19 hours ago, Rask said: I know this is kinda cheating because he's been a little bit sympathetic ever since his POV in book one, but I really think Gaz as one of Shalan's squires, and later perhaps a radiant, would be super cool! Either that or he nobly sacrifices himself for some great cause, I'm happy with whichever. Am I the only one who wants Gaz to ascend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Posted December 14, 2019 Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 A case against Stick? Refusal to become fire. This makes him a bad person because he doesn't allow shallan to change him. This was another thing that might have led up to her identity crisis and if she had been able to soulcast the stick then she would have been a lot more confident as herself and wouldn't have to become radiant in Oathbringer. He has a secret unknown backstory. Who knows who or what stick could be. we know that Stick is a stick but he must be hiding something no stick would refuse being fire as much as Stick wants to become fire. If stick revealed the mysteries about his creation and everything about him then everyone would be greatly helped who knows it might even turn the tide of the war. All we know though is that he doesn't reveal his story and since he doesn't he must be evil because he is not helping anyone except himself existing in the first place. Since stick exists many sharders have spent many hours theorizing on stick. This time should have been used for more productive time and therefore stick is evil since he makes us waste time on the 17shard. (note it's not actually wasting time to be on the shard since it is the most important thing a person can do but I had to say it) being a Stick Stick should be a rock or a pencil anything but a stick. actually never mind he is a stick and he should be nothing but a stick. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted December 14, 2019 Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 (edited) A case against Lift: She puts Gawx, an easily manipulated puppet king, on the throne of Azir She steals food from Nale, a veteran with clear mental issues, and then she makes him cry She tries to gaslight Wyndle into thinking he's a Vodbringer Most of her known associates (Nale, Szeth, Nightblood, Dalinar) are known mass murderers She's potentially the most capable torturer in all of Roshar. She can eat you alive with a Shardfork, convert your flesh to Investiture, heal you with it and start again, creating a never-ending cycle of torment that makes Damnation look like a piece of (pan)cake. In fact, Lift might stand for Limitless Investiture Feast Torturer She's so terrifying that Odium leaves Dalinar's vision the moment he realizes she might be there There are rainbowspren on Roshar, but we never see them. Why? They're hiding, afraid of Lift who might want to eat them so she can belch rainbows The prosecution rests, your Honor Edited December 14, 2019 by KandraAllomancer 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthPrincess Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 A case against Dalinar: addicted to the thrill and other drugs an alcoholic loves to kill encourages his sons to also kill takes his brother's wife blindly follows an old book blindly follows crazy visions genocide arrogant, he won't consider others' opinions power hungry ignores his family does not remember his wife's name distant father can't stand being around his child usurps the throne from his nephew forces a spren into bonding him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthPrincess Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 14/12/2019 at 4:28 AM, Ookla the Prolific said: Am I the only one who wants Gaz to ascend? No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Gaz? Ascend? To Odium, sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Honorless said: Gaz? Ascend? To Odium, sure No to another shard. Honor or Cultivation maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, StealthPrincess said: A case against Dalinar: does not remember his wife's name Hahaha! 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: No to another shard. Honor or Cultivation maybe. Uh... Not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bliev Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/14/2019 at 0:51 PM, KandraAllomancer said: She steals food from Nale, a veteran with clear mental issues, and then she makes him cry OK. This was too good. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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