Enough with the Moash thing

[Honorless he/him]

@Bigmikey357, I think I'm going to disagree with your point here.

Moash did think to pay back Kaladin with the one thing he got the chance to pay him with, he tried to bring Kaladin into the fold with Graves' conspiracy to try to assassinate Elhokar to give him a chance for vengeance out of a sense of kinship.

Messed up, I know, but technically the truth

[StanLemon]

I think as readers we forget that we have a privileged perspective of things on the books. If you look at things from his perspective though his actions make a lot more sense and while I can't say I'm sympathetic to him I don't hate him because I can understand a lot of his reasoning. 

Elhokar abused his authority and caused the death of his loved ones, Kaladin at first agreed to the assassination but then from Moash's perspective betrayed him and protected the corrupt king. Moash didn't know that Elhokar was reforming. He sympathized with the Parshmen after learning more about them. And eventually his depressed and mentally tortured mind gave up to Odium. He's a foil not just to Kaladin but also to Dalinar with him failing where they succeeded

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

@Bigmikey357, I think I'm going to disagree with your point here.

Moash did think to pay back Kaladin with the one thing he got the chance to pay him with, he tried to bring Kaladin into the fold with Graves' conspiracy to try to assassinate Elhokar to give him a chance for vengeance out of a sense of kinship.

Messed up, I know, but technically the truth

If I buy you a 10 course meal and you think to pay me back with a poison rotten apple I don't consider that as a debt repaid. Kal told Moash over and over again that he didn't want to go down that road, but instead of being a friend and laying off he kept pressing for his own selfish reasons.

[Aon Tia she/her]

35 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If I buy you a 10 course meal and you think to pay me back with a poison rotten apple I don't consider that as a debt repaid. Kal told Moash over and over again that he didn't want to go down that road, but instead of being a friend and laying off he kept pressing for his own selfish reasons.

Kaladin did approach Moash of his own free will when he told him that I am in. Elhokar is a bad king and he needs to go. 

I don’t think that Moash kept pressing him. And I also do not recall anytime kal telling him after this, that I don’t want to go through with the plan. Until the very end. So I think when he saw kal defending elhokar he must have been shocked..

and once he had attempted to kill the king, I don’t think Moash could even come back even if he had wanted to. Running away was his only option. 

[Honorless he/him]

Hahaha! In trying to argue morality there's always rotten apples aplenty!

But my point still stands, @Bigmikey357, that was Moash's idea of gratitude and Kaladin was, in fact, tempted. As we all would've been if we'd had the same choice. He tried to pay him back the only and best way that he could think of.

Yes, it only adds to his wretchedness but that, to me just adds to the tragedy of his character. And lo: this thread of discussion came to be!

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I still think there was a better target in which to aim his vengence, one that would not have gotten him kicked out of the brotherhood that was Bridge 4. I mean Roshone is sitting fat and pretty in Hearthstone, diminished status but still a lighteyes, still gets to Lord over a bunch of people, still likely unrepentant. Being mad at Elkohar instead of Roshone is kinda like if I was ran over by someone and I got mad at the car that hit me. 

[Calderis he/him]

34 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I still think there was a better target in which to aim his vengence, one that would not have gotten him kicked out of the brotherhood that was Bridge 4. I mean Roshone is sitting fat and pretty in Hearthstone, diminished status but still a lighteyes, still gets to Lord over a bunch of people, still likely unrepentant. Being mad at Elkohar instead of Roshone is kinda like if I was ran over by someone and I got mad at the car that hit me. 

Moash didn't actually seem to know who Roshone was. He knew that a lighteyes owned the silversmiths that competed with his grandparents, and to his knowledge went to Elhokar to have them put in jail. 

Kaladin is the one who found that out when Dalinar said Roshone's name, and I don't think he ever told Moash that. 

From Moash's perspective, some entitled lighteyes went to the king to deal with some upstart darkeyes who were stepping on his toes, and Elhokar was the one with the power to actually do something about it, and did. Moash was out caravaning at the time and returned to hear about it all after the fact. 

Which is why I never had an issue with Moash's motivations there, misguided as they were. Yes, Roshone was more directly responsible, but from the view of a darkeyes caravaneer who lost his family, a no name lighteyes didn't have the power to do that. But the king did, and looked down on darkeyes stepping on a no name lighteyes toes as upstarts who needed to be put in the their place as an example. 

It's not an accurate assessment, but how many people regularly misunderstand politics and blame the wrong people for their personal pain?

When it comes to Moash and Kaladin, the only betrayal I saw there was that he disobeyed an order from Kaladin to stop meeting with Graves... And shortly after Kaladin found out that that order was disobeyed, he 180'd and said "I'm in." 

The next thing Moash knew, he's got a nearly passed out and bleeding Kaladin standing between him and the vengeance he's been waiting years for, after Kaladin had told him "you can have this and I'll help." So he's like... "Dude... No way, he's right there, just scoot..." and accidentally mortally wounds the person that he has, from his perspective, every right to be pissed at in that moment, and is still absolutely horrified at what he just did. Yes he then moves to kill Kaladin... But at that point if it hadn't been for him restoring his bind it would have been a mercy. That would have been a painful death. 

Everything goes wrong, he has to flee with Graves, and then he's left wondering how his entire world just went to hell. 

Like I said, I don't agree with his choices. But I do understand them. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Calderis

[Zelly]

Coming in late to this party.  But as my week has been a spiral into depression, you know what, I can get behind Moash.  

The Elkohar's death isn't Moash's big character scene.  It's when he goes to join a caravan and instead gets taken before a Brightlord.  Moash isn't full of hatred, vengence, bitterness, or anything there.  This is Void Moash:  "The world's a messed up place.  People are messed up.    It's okay to fail, because that's all we know how to do.  We're failures, so of course we're going to fail.  Might as well stop caring."  

IMO, Moash's mental state should horrify people far more than his actions.

 

[+Slowswift]

Personally my... intense dislike, shall we say, of Moash came only after his "point of no return". I was fascinated by his chapters up until the Elhokar Moment (and after too, but in a different way). I didn't hate him, and was even hoping for an interesting redemption arc. Then he threw it all away for petty revenge, and then threw the rest out when he gave up his agency for that and future actions, and I think that's at the core of it. There's also something to be said for the fact that the Elhokar Moment was so intense and emotional that it can't help but color all future perception of him, at least for me.

Thanks all for a fascinating read that made me think!

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I find Moash to be a great character from a writing standpoint. He is a perfect foil to Kaladin, and also works to show how Odium works when he takes over people, essentially by taking away their hope to be better (which we also see with Amaram on Thaylen Fields). I certainly think that Moash is an interesting character, but he is also one who is very easy to dislike. Sadeas has some kind of charisma and charm, Amaram is misled and at times honorable and kind, Mr T is a desperate old man who really does his utmost to save humanity,. But Moash has an unlikeable attitude, is whiny, and revenge-driven, even at the times when he is on team good guy. I think that whole attitude makes it easier to dislike the guy. And then, the Elhokar and Jezrien scenes are just icing on the cake. 

That said, I defenitely think people should be allowed to like Moash. I don´t, but as the number one fan of another famous Rosharan piece of crem, I certainly symphatize and understand the people who do. Go, Moash fans!

And also, @Calderis I agree that Moash doesnt kick the child. But the act of pushing a weeping child away of his father, so that you then can spear the father through the eye while the child is watching (which is what Moash does) is defenitely gross. Moash has his reasons, but I still think that the act in question can easily be considered one of the worst in the series.

[Honorless he/him]

Scrolling through r/cremposting, *sigh* this topic is still relevant

[Rorzikel]

I’m guilty of doing this in the past.

That being said, I can’t buy Elhokar’s death being a moral event horizon given we have the storming Blackthorn redeemed. If we had peeked in on Dalinar at an earlier part of his life without starting with him post-Nightwatcher and from a different pov a lot of people would hate him far more than Moash.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

I feel that I have to say I am strongly, strongly, in the storm moash camp and explain why. For me the most potent comparison is with Dalinar. Yes, Danilar has done objectively worse things than any other character on Roshar. I'd rank him 3rd on the cosmere wide bad things done (behind odium and tlr). But he changed. He asked the nightmother for forgiveness. He saved the world. And he is trying to be a better person. Moash on the other hand revels in the glory of his wrongdoing when given chance after chance to redeem himself he turns it down.  The last nail in his coffin as far as I'm concerned was that storming salute. I do not see Moash as irredeemable. No one is. Ever.  But his actions lead me to believe he won't redeem himself. Particularly in not allowing Elothkar to redeem himself. 

To comment on the general moash hate I'm really not surprised. The one you can save is the most emotional chapter in the entire series and may well remain that way. Frankly, Brandon set us up to hate moash.

Edit: also while I despise Moash as a person with every fiber of my being I readily admit he is a great character. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Honorless he/him]

9 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I feel that I have to say I am strongly, strongly, in the storm moash camp and explain why. For me the most potent comparison is with Dalinar. Yes, Dalinar has done objectively worse things than any other character on Roshar. I'd rank him 3rd on the cosmere wide bad things done (behind odium and tlr). But he changed. He asked the nightmother for forgiveness. He saved the world. And he is trying to be a better person. Moash on the other hand revels in the glory of his wrongdoing when given chance after chance to redeem himself he turns it down.  The last nail in his coffin as far as I'm concerned was that storming salute. I do not see Moash as irredeemable. No one is. Ever.  But his actions lead me to believe he won't redeem himself. Particularly in not allowing Elothkar to redeem himself. 

To comment on the general moash hate I'm really not surprised. The one you can save is the most emotional chapter in the entire series and may well remain that way. Frankly, Brandon set us up to hate moash.

Edit: also while I despise Moash as a person with every fiber of my being I readily admit he is a great character. 

"revels in the glory of his wrongdoing"? 

[AonEne he/him]

Just now, Honorless said:

"revels in the glory of his wrongdoing"? 

I’ve never seen any evidence of that. He seemed more tired and dead inside after doing it, definitely never gloried in it - which was the whole point of his arc. It’s hard to glory in revenge. 

13 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

The last nail in his coffin as far as I'm concerned was that storming salute. 

The one you can save is the most emotional chapter in the entire series and may well remain that way. 

I will never understand why people hate that salute so much  and especially why it made killing Elhokar even worse. 

Also gonna hard disagree there. It’s a matter of opinion, but I prefer The Girl Who Stood Up. (I think - there are other great candidates. Oathbringer had a lot of great chapters) 

[ftl]

Yeah, as best as I can tell "the stormmoash" crowd are having pretty much the reaction Brandon wanted us to have.

That scene is just picture-perfect for it. Elokhar, down and beaten. About to say the oath to start on the path to redemption. Starting to glow. Holding his son. You can just imagine the dramatic music. ...and then Moash literally kicks the child , stabs Elokhar (gives him a double-tap for extra brutality, the scene lingers on it for a bit), then gives Kaladin a final F-U salute and runs off. The only way he could be any more hate-worthy is if he stabbed a cute puppy on the way out.

It's not really about the actual actions. Szeth and Taravangian assassinated a bunch of leaders and those leaders were just as innocent and had families too, Dalinar had a whole history as Blackthorn and probably murdered far more kings and queens and children, etc etc. So did many Alethi warlords, probably. But that's not the point; stuff referenced off-screen can never have the emotional impact this scene does.

It's just a super well-written, emotional scene. Exactly as it's supposed to be. And Moash is the villain of it.

So in conclusion, StormMoash.

[Honorless he/him]

Well said, Ene. It's not just that, Moash's story and, in fact, his theme & possibly his story arc seems to revolve around the idea of being a victim of circumstances. He had very little control over the things that had happened to him. His family's death was a result of Lighteyes politics, the Bridgecrews, then he got swept up in Graves' conspiracy which finally gave him a chance to do something, to push back. Then we see him in Oathbringer, in the Singer camps, where he's again completely beaten down. He's pretty much just pointed in a direction by the Fused at this point.

He didn't just see a big, red "redemption" button and choose not to press it. He's in no psychological condition to do so. It's the furthest thing from his mind when all he's seeing is people in power abusing their power and how it's so pervasive, with the lighteyes and then the Fused. He's taken the easy way out, most people in his situation would've done the same. It's only the context of the full book that throws him in stark contrast

[AonEne he/him]

8 minutes ago, ftl said:

...Moash literally kicks the child... 

...gives Kaladin a final F-U salute... 

...stuff referenced off-screen can never have the emotional impact this scene does. 

He didn’t kick him, he just shoved him aside. We don’t even know if it was a hard shove. 

I highly doubt that was his intention. “Screw you” makes no sense for Moash to say to Kaladin; it would be pretty out-of-character. I’ve heard it said (maybe in this thread) that it was more like he was thanking Kaladin for the training that helped him do this, which fits him and the scene much better, as well as Kaladin’s character development in the moment (“it’s all my fault”). 

That’s your opinion. Personally I find all death to be impactful. *shrugs* 

Thanks, Honorless! And yeah, I agree with what you just said. (Off-topic, but do you have a nickname for your username? ‘Honorless’ feels so formal. Also I just typoed it twice ) 

[Aon Tia she/her]

49 minutes ago, Honorless said:

then he got swept up in Graves' conspiracy which finally gave him a chance to do something, to push back

Swept up.... I don’t think I agree here with you. He is not as much a victim of his circumstances as you are making it out to be. In WoR, he did have a chance to make a different choice but he chose revenge and actively went with Graves. Revenge also he chose to take against Elhokar who happened to be available and not Roshone who was the real perpetrator. 
He could have chosen to let go. He had been made a shardbearer and he could have empowered himself and worked towards improving the lives of other darkeyes but no. He learnt everything that Kal had to offer in combat but had a narrow viewpoint on how to use it. 

 

49 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Then we see him in Oathbringer, in the Singer camps, where he's again completely beaten down.

Beaten down yes, but not by singers or human action. He is beaten down by his own bad choices and mistakes and guilt. 
 

43 minutes ago, AonEne said:

highly doubt that was his intention. “Screw you” makes no sense for Moash to say to Kaladin; it would be pretty out-of-character. I’ve heard it said (maybe in this thread) that it was more like he was thanking Kaladin for the training that helped him do this, which fits him and the scene much better, as well as Kaladin’s character development in the moment (“it’s all my fault”). 

I think the reason readers take that Salute as a “screw you” is because the last time Moash and Kaladin were face to face, it was at the end of WoR where Moash had got so close to take “his revenge” and was prevented from doing so by Kaladin. And then in this scene, despite Kaladin being present, Moash is able to come in and kill Elhokar. He kills him looks at kaladin and salutes him. So, I read it as this time you could not stop me buddy. I did what you prevented from happening last time. You could not save him and I was able to kill him. Bye. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by The Traveller

[Honorless he/him]

Yeah, there's already been long discussions on this thread regarding what ftl said. Me, Cal very much disagree on the kick thing, same with the Kaladin salute, which to Moash was just a sign of respect towards Kaladin, and for me the Bridge scenes & Tien's death is still the most difficult part to get through.

Speaking of Tien, he played a major part in making Elhokar's character more palatable for readers, I think. That was the first favourable description (via comparison) that we got of him. Kaladin called him "Dalinar's Tien". That comparison made me so mad. You guys wanna know how that scene looked from the other perspective? Here goes:

Elhokar starts speaking the Words. Nononononono, not him. He doesn't deserve magical powers, the dude's a D! Moash stabs him. Oh god no, Moash , run! He said the words! He'll kill you! He'll start glowing and heal and kill you! Moash, run, you stupid dolt! Moash stabs Elhokar again, in the face. Unbridled joy. Then crushing sadness. Oh Moash, oh Kal, stop it both of you. You're both literally just there. Just talk to each other!

Ene, just call me hon. It has the added bonus of confusing the heck out of people

[Honorless he/him]

10 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

Swept up.... I don’t think I agree here with you. He is not as much a victim of his circumstances as you are making it out to be. In WoR, he did have a chance to make a different choice but he chose revenge and actively went with Graves. Revenge also he chose to take against Elhokar who happened to be available and not Roshone who was the real perpetrator. 
He could have chosen to let go. He had been made a shardbearer and he could have empowered himself and worked towards improving the lives of other darkeyes but no. He learnt everything that Kal had to offer in combat but had a narrow viewpoint on how to use it. 

 

Beaten down yes, but not by singers or human action. He is beaten down by his own bad choices and mistakes and guilt.

Swept up is very accurate here. The only other option was loyalty, which led straight up to the man who was too afraid to free prisoners out of a sense of embarrassment. We've already gone over this in this thread before, just go back a few pages.

He very much was beaten down by human & Singer actions. There is a chapter where he finds people still obeying a Lighteyes. He also sees that the Fused do not truly care about the Parshendi and was crestfallen by it. The labor camps were just tamer Bridgeruns to him. These are pivotal chapters from his PoV in OB.

[Aon Tia she/her]

I think both ways of looking at the scene are valid. You can look at this like you said and others have looked at it the way they describe. At best, this scene is a controversial scene. 
People have the right to hate him. Just like people also have the right to love him or sympathise with him. That is the beauty of Sanderson’s work for me. But bashing people who like Moash needs to stop! No doubts in my mind there. 

[Honorless he/him]

Agreed, I'm not here to "convert" people but this meme response needs to stop. It's getting really annoying. It's flagrant flanderization. Some are done in a visceral response and we should totally have discussions about that. But a lot of Moash hate is just there because it's "cool"

[Aon Tia she/her]

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

But a lot of Moash hate is just there because it's "cool"

Or because it is just convenient to hate him or to say that you hate him in the face of so much ridicule you will face if you say, you don’t. 

[Honorless he/him]

Just now, The Traveller said:

Or because it is just convenient to hate him or to say that you hate him in the face of so much ridicule you will face if you say, you don’t. 

All the more reason to have this discussion