Enough with the Moash thing

[AonEne he/him]

33 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

So, I read it as this time you could not stop me buddy. I did what you prevented from happening last time. You could not save him and I was able to kill him. Bye. 

I guess I can see where you’re getting it from, I just don’t think it fits Moash’s character. He cared about and respected Kal even after splitting up with Bridge Four; I can’t see him taunting Kaladin. 

26 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Ene, just call me hon. It has the added bonus of confusing the heck out of people 

Lol okay! The best part is you’re gay and I’m already in a relationship 

And yes, all of what you guys just said! 

[Aon Tia she/her]

42 minutes ago, Honorless said:

All the more reason to have this discussion

Exactly agreed. 
@AonEne yea he does respect Kaladin and generally hates himself because he thinks he did not deserve to be part of bridge 4. Which does give hope for redemption. But I think it can only happen with all of bridge 4 forgiving him and accepting him back and not just kaladin alone.

Edited February 11, 2020 by The Traveller

[AonEne he/him]

46 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

Exactly agreed. 
@AonEne yea he does respect Kaladin and generally hates himself because he thinks he did not deserve to be part of bridge 4. Which does give hope for redemption. But I think it can only happen with all of bridge 4 forgiving him and accepting him back and not just kaladin alone.

I agree with that - though first they’d need to learn what he did, and Kaladin would need to stop keeping it from them. I get why he’s doing it - it can be hard to talk about betrayal - but this is their business too, and they deserve to know. 

[Nellac]

1 hour ago, The Traveller said:

Or because it is just convenient to hate him or to say that you hate him in the face of so much ridicule you will face if you say, you don’t. 

Here's a couple of alternative theories

1. As had been started before Brandon clearly wrote the scene in such a way as to make Moash out to be the bad guy. I don't think it's fair to get mad at people because they see something in the way the other is obviously nudging them towards.

 

2. Here's the bigger reason I think people have a problem with Moash. They feel betrayed. Here's the difference between Moash and the king and Dalinar and all the other light eyes. We first see Moash do great things. He helps save Dalinar and his men on the plateau run. He helps Kaladin keep bridge 4 running. He does all this awesome stuff that pretty much everyone agrees is great, and then he does something that people feel is bad. With Szeth and the other light eyes, we never really saw them so something great before they did something evil so it wasn't as painful. It's like how it would be nice more shocking if your best friend robbed a bank then if it was a random person you'd never met. Now, as to Dalinar. We do know that he has done terrible things in the past, but we don't learn this until we see the man he becomes. Those things are then seen as tragic, but there pain is tempered by the knowledge that he later rights his wrongs. We don't have that with Moash.

 

3. He cut off a redemption arc. Now, whether you like it or not, it does appear that in OB Elhokar does start to go through a redemption arc. He tries to do what is right and actually seeks the guidance of others in doing so. He even forfeits some of his power to Dalinar and then risks his life to go on a mission to help his people. Now, we're in this moment where this spoiled brat is actually starting to look decent and might actually become a good and useful person and then WHAM. Moment ended by Moash and we'll never know how Elhokar could have turned out.

 

Now, I'm not saying it's a bad thing if you like Moash. Personally, I dislike him for all of the above reasons. But to say it's "convenient" to like him doesn't make sense. The way you say it makes it sound like they're taking the easy way out and not actually looking at the evidence. That's not true. I've looked at the evidence and all the posts on this thread. While I can get where you're coming from, I still don't agree. It's fine if you like Moash and we can go back and forth on our personal grievances with him or the king, but don't disregard those who disagree. We're not doing it just cause it's "cool" we're doing it because we don't think what Moash did was ethical. If you want people to respect your position on this, you also need to respect theirs.

[Honorless he/him]

Sorry about that @Nellac, it did look like I was saying that, didn't it? But I was drawing a line there. I do respect your opinion.

There are people who're just doing this for the lulz though, and some who've really taken it too far when someone else objects to the vilification of a complicated character. You're lucky you haven't encountered them yet.

[AonEne he/him]

3 minutes ago, Nellac said:

I don't think it's fair to get mad at people because they see something in the way the other is obviously nudging them towards. 

No one here has gotten mad at anyone for disliking Moash. Some of us have gotten annoyed at the degree his hate has reached, and how that affects the culture around him, but that’s it as far as I’ve seen. 

3 minutes ago, Nellac said:

Now, I'm not saying it's a bad thing if you like Moash. Personally, I dislike him for all of the above reasons. But to say it's "convenient" to like him doesn't make sense. The way you say it makes it sound like they're taking the easy way out and not actually looking at the evidence. That's not true. I've looked at the evidence and all the posts on this thread. While I can get where you're coming from, I still don't agree. It's fine if you like Moash and we can go back and forth on our personal grievances with him or the king, but don't disregard those who disagree. We're not doing it just cause it's "cool" we're doing it because we don't think what Moash did was ethical. If you want people to respect your position on this, you also need to respect theirs.

Trav didn’t say that was the only option; they provided it as one of multiple options within the context of their post. And honestly, it’s a very valid option. Anyone who’s ever had an unpopular opinion can attest to the fact that fandoms can be hard to express those opinions in, especially if it’s an opinion most people don’t hold. 17S is fantastic, one of the best fandoms out there, but it’s not perfect. I can completely see some people going along with the trend, hoping to ride it out or whatever because they don’t want to be harassed for their preferences. 

Same goes for going along with the trend because it’s a trend. I mean, take the two things most memed about in my experience: Stick and Moash. I highly doubt either would be as big as it is today if at least a good chunk of people hadn’t looked at it and thought, Huh, this is a shiny, funny, cool joke in the Sanderfandom that people will laugh at and relate to and jumped on the bandwagon for that reason at first. (And unfortunately, some would do it for the upvotes.) Not even necessarily a bad thing in that case, just how fandom culture works. 

We also haven’t been disregarding or disrespecting anyone that I’ve seen, discussion here has generally been pretty inclusive. 

[Nellac]

34 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Sorry about that @Nellac, it did look like I was saying that, didn't it? But I was drawing a line there. I do respect your opinion.

There are people who're just doing this for the lulz though, and some who've really taken it too far when someone else objects to the vilification of a complicated character. You're lucky you haven't encountered them yet.

I have no doubt that those people are out there and I think putting someone down for there opinion is terrible. I completely disown those kind of people.

 

Anyways here's a thought that I haven't seen discussed here a ton. If Moash had been patient he could have gained the social and political strength and recognition to get a hearing on this and maybe even get some Justice dealt out. Now, one of the big arguments I hear is that since Moash was just a dark eyed soldier he never could have gotten an actual trial against the king. While that's true at first, let's take a step back and look at some other factors. For one, he is friends with one of the most powerful people on Roshar, Kaladin. He is also one of the personal bodyguards to the king himself. Later on her becomes a loving legend by becoming one of the only dark eyes in living memory to get plate and a blade. All this being said, if he wanted to he could create a huge fuss politically speaking. If he had taken his accusations to Dalinar he could have gotten his backing to go after the real culprit Rashone.

 

Also, I think by taking justice into his own hands, he fails to see the other side. He doesn't even know how the king was manipulated by Rashone or how Dalinar, admittedly poorly, tried to fix the situation. If this thread has proven anything it's that there's always the other side does/thinks that they do and without understanding that you can't make a truly educated decision.

 

Here's the last thing. The question really comes down to, is mutual destruction justified. The idea of an eye for an eye had been around for nearly all of human civilization. But honestly it just makes everything worse. At this point, is Elhokar's soon justified in hunting down Moash when he grows up? By Moash's logic, as I understand it, it would seem so. But by then maybe Moash has a kid. Then are they justified in hunting down Elhokar's son? This path just leads to a spiral of destruction until one group is able to make the difficult to decision to let it go for the good of everyone. That's the biggest problem I have with Moash's choices. He is willing to put aside the good of everyone for revenge. Now, I get exactly why he did it, but I still wish he could've been better than that. That he could've gotten over his rage and helped build a better Roshar.

 

Now I'm not saying this to prove you're wrong, mainly in curious to see your responses. Sorry if I came off a bit aggressive in the last post, but it truly felt like people who dislike Moash were being dismissed as sheep it cowards

Edited February 11, 2020 by Nellac
Grammar

[The Awakened Salad they/them]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Ene, just call me hon. It has the added bonus of confusing the heck out of people

*Head pops up from under table*

I’m sorry to interrupt the Moash discussion, but Honorless can I also call you hon? That’s all.

*Head goes back under table*

[Honorless he/him]

1 minute ago, The Awakened Salad said:

*Head pops up from under table*

I’m sorry to interrupt the Moash discussion, but Honorless can I also call you hon? That’s all.

*Head goes back under table*

Of course, salad!

@Nellac, I think you meant Darkeyed not Date eyed, lol

Edited February 11, 2020 by Honorless

[Nellac]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

 

@Nellac, I think you meant Darkeyed not Date eyed, lol

Yeah, stupid spell check. I'm using mobile currently

[Honorless he/him]

31 minutes ago, Nellac said:

Yeah, stupid spell check. I'm using mobile currently

I know your pain.

That said, I don't think such a recourse would've been feasible yet. Dalinar and Adolin are the most open-minded we've seen about treating Darkeyed respectfully but even they subscribe to the rigid Vorin societal structure. Plus, this is wartime. I think it could happen, and in fact would need to happen in the story, as not just a fight against Odium but a fight against hatred between people. It just won't be as simple as that. We'll see how Vorin societal dynamics change with the Parshmen gone, the truth about the Voidbringers, the Parshendi, the Radiants and the Heralds, as well as how the eye colours came to be.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Honorless

[Aon Tia she/her]

5 hours ago, Nellac said:

Personally, I dislike him for all of the above reasons. But to say it's "convenient" to like him doesn't make sense. The way you say it makes it sound like they're taking the easy way out and not actually looking at the evidence. That's not true. I've looked at the evidence and all the posts on this thread. While I can get where you're coming from, I still don't agree. It's fine if you like Moash and we can go back and forth on our personal grievances with him or the king, but don't disregard those who disagree. We're not doing it just cause it's "cool" we're doing it because we don't think what Moash did was ethical. If you want people to respect your position on this, you also need to respect theirs.

Please do not just take my last comment and say I am accusing people for hating him. Look at all my comments, I am strongly in the camp that dislikes Moash. 
I also said just above the comment you quoted:

Quote

I think both ways of looking at the scene are valid. You can look at this like you said and others have looked at it the way they describe. At best, this scene is a controversial scene. 
People have the right to hate him. Just like people also have the right to love him or sympathise with him. That is the beauty of Sanderson’s work for me. But bashing people who like Moash needs to stop! No doubts in my mind there. 

So I have already said what you are saying. 

Thank you @AonEne for agreeing with me there. 

5 hours ago, Nellac said:

All this being said, if he wanted to he could create a huge fuss politically speaking. If he had taken his accusations to Dalinar he could have gotten his backing to go after the real culprit Rashone.

Agreed. I have also said that I believe he had other options. He went with the easiest and quickest one. Kill the one who wronged you. I prefer the route kaladin took with regard to Amaram and look at the satisfactory results he got, although it required him to have patience and put his faith in Dalinar and not take matters in his own hands. I am not saying that he could get justice against the King!! But Roshone atleast, who is the real culprit could have been brought down. 
but the truth is that even Roshone seemed to be or atleast his wife, Laral are doing good for his people now! 
At the human war camps also, he scoffed at how the light eyes were still incharge but did nothing to change any of it. Unlike Kaladin. 
 

 

5 hours ago, The Awakened Salad said:

*Head pops up from under table*

I’m sorry to interrupt the Moash discussion, but Honorless can I also call you hon? That’s all.

*Head goes back under table*

Haha.. and @Honorless me too?!! 

[Honorless he/him]

1 hour ago, The Traveller said:

Haha.. and @Honorless me too?!! 

Go right ahead

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

13 hours ago, Honorless said:

"revels in the glory of his wrongdoing"? 

Again that salute. I hate the salute so much.

13 hours ago, AonEne said:

I’ve never seen any evidence of that. He seemed more tired and dead inside after doing it, definitely never gloried in it - which was the whole point of his arc. It’s hard to glory in revenge. 

In the later "Vrye" chapters he references it as the only time he felt alive. I'm not near my book so I can't quote.

[AonEne he/him]

2 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Again that salute. I hate the salute so much.

In the later "Vrye" chapters he references it as the only time he felt alive. I'm not near my book so I can't quote.

I still don’t think the salute was glorying in it at all. The only descriptor attached was “quietly”. Not that he did it while smirking or even smiling, or that he called attention to it, just that he did it - in a word that’s associated with respect. And then that was all. (Edit: I included that bit about Kaladin down below because it supports the theory that he wasn’t taunting him. If he had been, I imagine he’d have taken pride in the betrayal, but Moash just wanted to forget it. He felt bad.) 

I looked through all his later chapters and didn’t find a single instance of him saying that. What I did find was this: 

Edited February 11, 2020 by AonEne

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

This is a sentence I didn't think I'd ever type for the sheer ridiculousness of it, but: I hated Moash before it was cool. 

Lol, the stormlight fandom is generally nice, but sometimes there are things in it which get on my nerves; like the stick, of which I got so fed up I promised I wouldn't answer any post that mentioned it or write that word in a post of mine ever again. Now, two years have passed since that promise...so I'll call it good for now.  Clearly I'm not Windrunner material though, if I consider a promise done after 2 years! 

Back to the topic at hand, I wrote off Moash in WoR. Oathbringer was simply confirmation for me of all my reasons for hating him when WoR ended. I didn't read O in horror at his actions, I read it with grim satisfaction at knowing I had been completely right about him. I think my first Moash hate post was written a year before Oathbringer was released or so, I guess I could check back on my posts if needed. In fact I think I said something like "I hope he falls off a horse and breaks his neck since he deserves an ignominous death that no-one even remembers". 

Why did I hate Moash already before Oathbringer began and see him as a lost cause?

I never liked him. In tWoK he was a pain in the behind from the moment he appeared till the end. Yes, the bridgemen were not at their best, but he took been hateful and a spoke in a wheel to extremes. Many bridgemen took what happened in bridge 4 as the end of a life and the beginning of a new one. Except Moash, the first thing he did when he was free was go stir up trouble. Now, if he is just frisky, fine, whatever, they are free to do some mayhem and his reasons for wanting Elhokar death were good ones. What was the problem then? Kaladin.

Kaladin got Moash everything Moash ever wanted. His life, respect, men serving under him, been a soldier, friendship, camaradie, even a storming Shard set. Moash owed Kaladin everything he had and everything he was. More than that, Kaladin was his friend. Moash didn't owe his life to Kaladin, but he did owe him enough respect to not turn on him. It was bad enough that if Moash had been succesful in assasinating Elhokar Kaladin would have been held responsible for failing to protect Elhokar, which is not something which you do to a friend to who you already owe everything. But then Moash was fully lost to me when he tried to kill Kaladin while Kaladin didn't even have stormlight because he had broken his bond with Syl.

People can all have their own opinions, but for me there is not a single thing which you can do which is worse than betraying a friend. You can betray your country, your commander, your family, because many of those people don't have your best interests at heart. But you never betray a friend. Not a friend that has always stood by you and given you absolutely everything you ever wanted and never raised a hand to hurt you or your loved ones. It isn't a matter of what you owe, it is that your friend has earned yout loyaly, by proving how much they care for you. 

If you betray a friend that has never made a single move against you, when everyone else has abandoned you, what do you fight for? Revenge? Justice? Power? My answer is: love. And the love of a friend is much greater in my book than the love of a lover. If you are willing to toss away a true friendship for your goals, then you are scum to me, because nothing can ever be more precious than what you threw away.

And that is why I hated Moash long before Oathbringer was even confirmed as the title of book three and all those Moash threads became popular. When I opened Oathbringer I did it with the knowledge that nothing on it would change my view of Moash, because he had already shown his true colors. Everything that happened in book three was simple confirmation of what I already knew. Too bad that my old idea of falling off and breaking his neck in an accident does not seem possible anymore with the stormshadow powers that he will gain. 

[USS bridge four he/him]

7 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Back to the topic at hand, I wrote off Moash in WoR. Oathbringer was simply confirmation for me of all my reasons for hating him when WoR ended.

Yup me too. I was legit confused when I first got on 17th with people saying he’d be a radiant though I might be misremembering that bit.

[animalia]

Bottom line. Moash needed his own Renarin.

[Honorless he/him]

15 minutes ago, animalia said:

Bottom line. Moash needed his own Renarin.

Awww!

[Jenet]

On 11.2.2020 at 11:18 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

I never liked him. In tWoK he was a pain in the behind from the moment he appeared till the end. Yes, the bridgemen were not at their best, but he took been hateful and a spoke in a wheel to extremes. Many bridgemen took what happened in bridge 4 as the end of a life and the beginning of a new one. Except Moash, the first thing he did when he was free was go stir up trouble. Now, if he is just frisky, fine, whatever, they are free to do some mayhem and his reasons for wanting Elhokar death were good ones. What was the problem then? Kaladin.

Kaladin got Moash everything Moash ever wanted. His life, respect, men serving under him, been a soldier, friendship, camaradie, even a storming Shard set. Moash owed Kaladin everything he had and everything he was. More than that, Kaladin was his friend. Moash didn't owe his life to Kaladin, but he did owe him enough respect to not turn on him. It was bad enough that if Moash had been succesful in assasinating Elhokar Kaladin would have been held responsible for failing to protect Elhokar, which is not something which you do to a friend to who you already owe everything. But then Moash was fully lost to me when he tried to kill Kaladin while Kaladin didn't even have stormlight because he had broken his bond with Syl.

People can all have their own opinions, but for me there is not a single thing which you can do which is worse than betraying a friend. You can betray your country, your commander, your family, because many of those people don't have your best interests at heart. But you never betray a friend. Not a friend that has always stood by you and given you absolutely everything you ever wanted and never raised a hand to hurt you or your loved ones. It isn't a matter of what you owe, it is that your friend has earned yout loyaly, by proving how much they care for you. 

I agree with this. There is something about Moash that is very difficult to forgive and easy to hate. And I very much want to forgive people, if they seek forgiveness. Life is hard. Especially for a darkeyes where your grandparents can be killed by a whim, and your leaders get their positions because of their eye colour and not because of their virtues and skills.

I have been trying to understand why I dislike Moash so much, even more than Sadeas and Amaram. I think it is because Moash is so resentful and nihilistic. He does not have any values. Sadeas is a coward, greedy and egotistical. Amaram also works only to promote himself. Moash just does not care. You get the feeling that he would kill anyone, if he gets the order to do it. His brother, if he had one. His grandparents, if they were still alive. 

He almost killed Kaladin, his best friend. The friend who had liberated him, and even made him a powerful lighteyes. And still he tried to kill him. Just because. There is no way to justify the fact that Moash tried to kill Kaladin, in my opinion. 

Both Moash and Kaladin are resentful because of what was done to them and their families. Only Kaladin sees that resentment is harmful and wrong. The problem with resentment is that if you give way to it, it will destroy you. And it often leads to nihilism.

I stole a definition from Dictionary.com: 

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.
 

I believe the reason why I dislike Moash so much, is his nihilistic behavior. And you cannot trust a person like that. You can trust Sadeas to be deceitful and greedy. You can trust Amaram to be false and stuck-up. But you cannot trust Moash to be anything, because he has no values at all.

 

It seems he still is trying to find meaning, and he seems to have found some sort of meaning in the truths about the origins of the humans and his joining the Fused and their fight. But this feels hollow to me. I seems to just feed his nihilism and his resentment. Like school shooters say they did it because they were bullied at school. Why don't all other victims of bullying go out and shoot innocent people? Because they know it is wrong.

 

Nihilists don't care, because they do not believe in right or wrong. They want the world to go to hell, because the world deserves it.

 

I sometimes get tired of Kaladin's resentful feelings as well, but he knows what is right. He fights it. He comes around. He even almost gets killed because of it. Not many people would have been able to do what Kaladin did there, and I don't blame people for not being exceptional. But Moash is being the opposite. He actively tries to kill his friend. He did not have to. He could have stopped. 

 

Despite this, I hope for a redemption arc for Moash. Many of our heroes have done terrible things, and we forgive them because they repent, and they struggle to become better persons. However: what makes a person irredeemable in SA? Sadeas, obviously. Amaram too. Beause they were not willing to change. They wanted to continue their evil ways.

 

I sort of feel that Moash's nihilistic ways falls somewhere in between Honor/Cultivation and Odium, and that he has chosen to not follow any rules or values at all. And that this choice is more scary and disgusting than even following Odium. Because you can never know what a nihilist will do.

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Jenet

[Nellac]

On 2/11/2020 at 3:18 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

 Moash didn't owe his life to Kaladin, but he did owe him enough respect to not turn on him. 

I agree with everything you've said, except this statement. Every single member of any of the bridge crews brought to Dalinar's camp owe their lives to Kaladin. Without him they would've all been dead within a month running Bridges for Sadeas. Moash even more so because he would have died weeks before they even left Sadeas' camp if it wasn't for Kaladin's leadership and surgebinding.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Nellac

[animalia]

something I find interesting about Moash. He's not just a foil to characters in the Stormlight archive. He's also a foil to Brandon's charcters in his other Cosmere books. his initial reason for sticking around, "because it's interesting" is the same reason Vin gives to Kelsier in Mistborn. I am not disagreeing with his villain status. I just love these little parallels

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

12 hours ago, Jenet said:

I believe the reason why I dislike Moash so much, is his nihilistic behavior. And you cannot trust a person like that. You can trust Sadeas to be deceitful and greedy. You can trust Amaram to be false and stuck-up. But you cannot trust Moash to be anything, because he has no values at all.

Nihilists don't care, because they do not believe in right or wrong. They want the world to go to hell, because the world deserves it.

 

I sort of feel that Moash's nihilistic ways falls somewhere in between Honor/Cultivation and Odium, and that he has chosen to not follow any rules or values at all. And that this choice is more scary and disgusting than even following Odium. Because you can never know what a nihilist will do.

 

Honestly, I think Moash just went with Odium and the Fused because he likes been told what to do. He doesn't want to be mistreated or hurt, but he likes people telling him what to do, what to think and taking all those pesky decisions of what is right and wrong out of his hands. In a way he is the perfect slave, or perhaps hound. Treat him well and he is yours, so long as you don't let his leash get too long, or he will feel restless and snap at you. I think Kaladin's problem is that he gave Moash too much freedom.

5 hours ago, Nellac said:

I agree with everything you've said, except this statement. Every single member of any of the bridge crews brought to Dalinar's camp owe their lives to Kaladin. Without him they would've all been dead within a month running Bridges for Sadeas. Moash even more so because he would have died weeks before they even left Sadeas' camp if it wasn't for Kaladin's leadership and surgebinding.

I expressed myself badly when I said Moash didn't owe his life to Kaladin. Obviously he did. What I meant was that Moash didn't have to become Kaladin's yes man for the rest of his life because Kaladin saved him from certain death. Moash was free to disagree, but from disagreeing to completely disrespecting and turning on Kaladin there is a very big leap. 

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 2/12/2020 at 3:48 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

But then Moash was fully lost to me when he tried to kill Kaladin while Kaladin didn't even have stormlight because he had broken his bond with Syl.

A bond which was frayed because of the confusion that Moash had created in Kaladin’s mind in the first place. I feel angry at Moash when I read WoR because he almost cost Kaladin his radianthood and then at the end, he sets him aside and says you can not protect him any longer, let me do what I want to do. 

[Frustration]

On 2/10/2020 at 8:02 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

The one you can save is the most emotional chapter in the entire series and may well remain that way. Frankly, Brandon set us up to hate moash.

 

I had almost no feeling in that chapter. And I don't buy Elhokars death, I don't care the shardblade, the spren, or the unmade saying he's dead, it doesn't feel real. Also the best chapter by a long ways is Kaladin fighting Amaram at the end of the book.