A rant on the Inconsistencies in the depicted history of Surgebinding

[+TheFoxQR]

1. The Stormfather mentions that Jezrein’s powers simply were, and weren’t named until Ishar founded the Knights Radiant. Only then did we get the Windrunner powers, even if they were modelled after Jezrein’s Honorblade. The same goes for every order. Similarly, Honor seems to have created the dual surge framework when he gave the Honorblades to the Heralds.
2. Yet, the Eila Stele mentions that Humans destroyed Ashyn with Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges.

How are both of these possible? 

One more inconsistency is that Brandon has mentioned in a WoB that he hasn’t yet decided on the exact mechanism for the Human Exodus. They could have directly teleported over, Oathgate travel style, or they could have walked over in the Cognitive. The fact that the details are not so important that they had to be set beforehand I think is pretty strong evidence for the use of the Surge of Transportation, as it covers both those possibilities.
Another thing that adds weirdness here is the fact that the kind of Surgebinding that humans discovered on their own, and presumably the kind that later got molded into Knight Radiant orders by Ishar, was unexpected to the Heralds. Even though most of them were alive at the time of the Exodus, when Humans used Surgebinding to destroy Ashyn. So what Surgebinding was used before?

One possibility is the Dawnshards - these are rumored to have been used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Maybe the surgebinding used on Ashyn was only through the Dawnshards, but if so, then the Dawnshards don’t fit the naming scheme. Dawn- seems to be associated to the time when Humans first came to Roshar, and were switching to Honor. The era of a new Dawn, new access to the white bright openly honest stormlight of Honor, after Odium’s pitch black deceptive void. We have Dawncities, Dawnsingers, Dawnchant. Why would Dawnshards be different? The term “Dawnsingers” seem to be referring to those singers which came to a refugee humanity’s aid on Honor’s (or Cultivation’s) behest when they first came to Roshar. They helped found the Dawncities. Theirs was the language of the Dawnchant - a language referred to as a chant, implied to have a rhythmic component to it. Then why are the Dawnshards the odd one out? Shouldn’t these be the Shards of the Dawnsingers, or at least something related to that era? If they are, then they can’t have also been present on Ashyn, unless the switch happened on Ashyn, before the migration. Even then… no.
Another interpretation is that when they say “Of spren and Surges”, they mean that the Surges are the powers of the Spren. As in, to the writer’s perspective, the surges are an attribute not independent of the idea of spren, which makes sense considering the ecology they lived in, and the composite soul, “Forms” based physiology of the Singers. Even if the powers humans had used were just Surges, independent of Spren, to a Singer, they may look like Spren powers. Maybe the original Surgebinding was granted by the Micro-organism based magic system of Ashyn. If so, how does Odium fit in?

Another weird thing is that it is said that the Shardblade and Shardplate concept was given to the Radiants by the Heralds. If so, what was Surgebinding like before the Shardblade and plate came into the picture? I thought the kind of Surgebinding that was discovered by the Humans, and which came off as unexpected to Heralds, only came forth by the spren trying to copy what Honor did with the Honorblades. If so, wouldn’t Shardblades be a part of that copying? Are there two components to this? Maybe the spren only learnt to bond rudimentarily enough to grant surges, but Ishar then took that and made it work more like the Honorblades? And also brought in the Shardplates?

Another curious thing is that Surgebinding and Souldcasting were two different magic systems in Nohadon’s mind. Even though Soulcasting is just an applied Surge of Transformation. Also, Uruthiru already exists by Nohadon’s time. So we can safely say that this Uruthiru has not yet been made the seat of the Knights Radiant, that will happen much later down the line. The Knights Radiant can’t even be in the picture here, if Soulcasting and Surgebinding are perceived as two distinct systems. This perception into two distinct systems works if at this point in time the Surgebinding in question was not of the Knight Radiant variety, and each “Surgebinder” got only one of 10 surges. In this case, the variety of Surgebinder that only got the Surge of Transformation could look feasibly different from other Surgebinders, and these could be called Soulcasters, and not Surgebinders. If it is of the Knights Radiant variety, then it would be apparent that it’s just another Surge, because the people who could do it could also do another Surge, and then it would take active effort to think that those two kinds of Surgebinders can do something other than Surgebinding and only one Surge, while the other orders get two Surges. Also the spren could have explained that. The fact that the Way of Kings was used as a foundational text for the Knights Radiant corroborates that the Knights Radiant were not formed by Nohadon’s time, I guess.

Yet another possible explanation is that when the Spren first started emulating Honorblades, their version of the bond was so rudimentary that it only granted the first Surge each order starts with. Possibly this is why each order has the first Oath in common. First Oath Radiants are what all Surgebinders in Nohadon’s era were like. Maybe the spren could also do Shardblades. In this explanation, Ishar came later and upgraded their capability to bond, implementing 4 further Oaths for each Order, teaching them how to grant the other corresponding Surge that Honorblades gave them, and otherwise properly founding both the system of magic and the organisational structure of the Knights Radiant. This is where he gave them Shardplate, and also the second surge.

What do others think of these? Are there other theories out there? What am I missing in this… “rant”?
 

Edit: When I say inconsistencies, I'm not critiquing Sanderson's worldbuilding or writing - I'm saying there's conflicting information in world, and maybe we can try and figure out what the actual history could possibly be like by looking at these... "disconnects"

Edited July 23, 2019 by TheFoxQR

[+King of Herdaz]

13 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

1. The Stormfather mentions that Jezrein’s powers simply were, and weren’t named until Ishar founded the Knights Radiant. Only then did we get the Windrunner powers, even if they were modelled after Jezrein’s Honorblade. The same goes for every order.
2. Yet, the Eila Stele mentions that Humans destroyed Ashyn with Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges.

How are both of these possible? 

What's the problem? The Surges have always existed and they were formalized into the Knight Radiant system by Ishar  following what Honor did with surges in the Honorblades.

3 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

Even though most of them were alive at the time of the Exodus

I do not think that this is true. Because the Heralds came to Honor seeking a way to stop the Fused from returning. And the whole Fused thing didn't start until a long time after the Exodus.

 

7 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

Another curious thing is that Surgebinding and Soulcasting were two different magic systems in Nohadon’s mind. Even though Soulcasting is just an applied Surge of Transformation.

This may just be that Soulcasting might seem different from the rest of the surges to a non-scholarly observer. And so they identified Soulcasting as separate from the other Surgebindings.

 

 

[+Invocation]

7 minutes ago, King of Herdaz said:

I do not think that this is true. Because the Heralds came to Honor seeking a way to stop the Fused from returning. And the whole Fused thing didn't start until a long time after the Exodus.

 

WOB to the rescue!

Quote

Willshaper Wallar

...Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. My timeline-- You can't nail me down on that one, because it's possible that Ash was born after, but I don't think so.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

 

[+King of Herdaz]

Just now, Invocation said:

WOB to the rescue!

 

OK, whoops then. Although I thought heard something like that mentioned on Shardcast, although since I'm currently (slowly) binge-listening my way through all of the older episodes of Shardcast, the one I'm thinking of may have been before that WOB.

[RShara]

I think the primary confusing from which the inconsistency springs is the use of the word "surge." When the ancient singers first saw humans and their powers, they would have described them in terms familiar to them. So they would call them surges, even if that's not exactly what they were.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

How are both of these possible? 

There is more then one magic system and they worked differently.  Surge is probably just the closest word in Dawnchant to what destroyed Ashyn

3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

So what Surgebinding was used before?

An older different magic system. 

3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

why are the Dawnshards the odd one out? Shouldn’t these be the Shards of the Dawnsingers, or at least something related to that era? If they are, then they can’t have also been present on Ashyn, unless the switch happened on Ashyn, before the migration. Even then… no.

This is what happens when your histories and mythologies degrade due to poor record keeping.  People get confused about stuff like that.

3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Another weird thing is that it is said that the Shardblade and Shardplate concept was given to the Radiants by the Heralds

That is what legends say.  We know that that is not true now.

3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Maybe the original Surgebinding was granted by the Micro-organism based magic system of Ashyn. If so, how does Odium fit in?

We don't know but that is hardly an inconsistency.  We are not all knowing.

3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Another curious thing is that Surgebinding and Souldcasting were two different magic systems in Nohadon’s mind

Or just that he thought them worth mentioning as separate for some reason. I don't think an offhand comment that may or may not mean something is realy inconsistent.  Humans do stuff like that all the time

3 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

The fact that the Way of Kings was used as a foundational text for the Knights Radiant corroborates that the Knights Radiant were not formed by Nohadon’s time, I guess.

Or just existed in some other form.  Or perhaps Urithiru was made by and for a different purpose.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Chaos
Don't double post

[+TheFoxQR]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I think the primary confusing from which the inconsistency springs is the use of the word "surge." When the ancient singers first saw humans and their powers, they would have described them in terms familiar to them. So they would call them surges, even if that's not exactly what they were.

I'm pretty sure we can accept these statements as facts:

1. The Surges are extremely wide fundamental phenomena existing in the Cosmere. This is to say that the Surge of Gravitation encapsulates the entirety of the fundamental force of Gravity.
2. On Roshar, the spren interact with these extremely wide surges in specific ways to create extremely specific effects. For e.g. the arrowhead spren that are around the Chasmfiend reduce their weight. This is a very specific interaction with the Surge of Gravitation.

My personal suspicion is that when Adonalsium built the Greater Roshar system, he defined these ten Surges through the 10 outer Gas Giants, which are extremely vast complicated blanket focii that, when interfaced with, allow the manipulation of the fundamental forces of Realmatic physics. These focii are what we call the Surges. Then, when building Roshar the planet, Adonalsium used bits of investiture to bind these 10 surges in specific ways to make the planet work like he wanted. In software terms, the 10 Gas Giants are extremely complicated and powerful APIs that allow for the manipulation of their corresponding force in every way imaginable. Then, when making Roshar work, Adonalsium could create simplified calls to this API and get what he wanted done much more efficiently. This explains why the spren are cognitive focused.

This weird analogy aside, I strongly suspect that Ashyn had different means to access the same Surges, and that if you wanted to, you could theoretically interact with a surge from anywhere in the Cosmere. My question is simply this - what was the system used before?

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That is what legends say.  We know that that is not true now.

Yes, but what is true, if not this? The very existence of the KR spren, and that they could be officially founded as an order begs questions - who built the framework for it, and how?

Understand this - it is heavily implied by the Stormfather that Honor did create the kind of Surgebinding we know with the Honorblades. This part is easy.

We know that certain people tried to duplicate what Honor did with the Honorblades and we got the Shardblades. We are also told that Ishar founded the Knights Radiant, and that at the time he literally went about and gave every surgebinder an ultimatum - join the Knights Radiant, accept the order imposed by that organisation, or die. So which was it?

Okay, technically this is not an inconsistency. But then who made the KR spren? There is definitely an intent in their existence - otherwise why is there exactly one type of spren corresponding to each kind of Honorblade, and why do they grant the exact same combination of surges? I'm pretty sure we'll both agree on the fact that it is only the Honorspren that can grant the Windrunner surges - that it is something inherent in their spiritwebs which allows access to the Surges of Adhesion and Gravitation. If so, how did that association come about? Not any spren can just decide to grant those two surges, somehow Honorspren came into existence with that specific ability. And then how did we go from there to Shardplate?

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Or just that he thought them worth mentioning as separate for some reason. I don't think an offhand comment that may or may not mean something is realy inconsistent.  Humans do stuff like that all the time

We have specific WoB on this:

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

In Dalinar's vision, why did Nohadon make a distinction between Soulcasting and Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because they are distinct in his [Nohadon's] mind.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That is what legends say.  We know that that is not true now.

No, no we don't. We have no clue who created the framework for Shardplates and Shardblades. We know Honor created Honorblades, and maybe the KR spren or Ishar created the Shardblades in trying to copy them. But Shardplate has no precedent - somebody came up with that concept and integrated it practically perfectly with the KR Oath progression. We still don't have absolute confirmation on what creates Shardplate, even if we do have pretty good theories. And even if we did, we don't know how somebody invented them, and we definitely don't know who. According to the legends, it was Ishar.

[Karger]

10 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

The Surges are extremely wide fundamental phenomena existing in the Cosmere. This is to say that the Surge of Gravitation encapsulates the entirety of the fundamental force of Gravity.

Um no.  The surges are local to the Rosharan system they clearly do not exist on scadrial or elantris.

 

10 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Yes, but what is true, if not this? The very existence of the KR spren, and that they could be officially founded as an order begs questions - who built the framework for it, and how?

That is a great question.  One that we do not yet know the answer to.  Please separate your rant on inconsistencies from actual questions it would make responding a bit easier.

10 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

ut Shardplate has no precedent - somebody came up with that concept and integrated it practically perfectly with the KR Oath progression

Or it just sort of happened.  Many discoveries are based on serendipity.  Shardplate could easily be a separate thing that just sort of happened without anyone expecting it.  Kind of like how humans figured out how to bond dead blades while trying to decorate them.

[Steel Inquisitive]

31 minutes ago, Karger said:

Um no.  The surges are local to the Rosharan system they clearly do not exist on scadrial or elantris.

I believe what he meant was that the surges represent cosmere wide phenomena. The surgebinders just use the surges, but the surges themselves exist everywhere. So unless you're saying gravity doesn't exist on Scadrial, you both agree.

36 minutes ago, Karger said:

Or it just sort of happened.  Many discoveries are based on serendipity.  Shardplate could easily be a separate thing that just sort of happened without anyone expecting it.  Kind of like how humans figured out how to bond dead blades while trying to decorate them.

I agree. I'm sure the spren were experimenting and shardplate just kind of happened.

Did they really discover how to bond dead blades by accident? I thought they were actively trying to discover how.

[Karger]

34 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Did they really discover how to bond dead blades by accident? I thought they were actively trying to discover how.

According to ancient records and WoBs they were trying to ornament the blades with gemstones and accidentally learned to summon and dismiss them.

34 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I believe what he meant was that the surges represent cosmere wide phenomena. The surgebinders just use the surges, but the surges themselves exist everywhere. So unless you're saying gravity doesn't exist on Scadrial, you both agree.

Bad example transformation and illumination do not exist on scadrial as natural forces.  Not in any real context.  The surges are a construction that allow humans to explain why certain things happen but I challenge you to measure or define transformation in any meaningful way.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Karger

[+TheFoxQR]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Um no.  The surges are local to the Rosharan system they clearly do not exist on scadrial or elantris.

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

Bad example transformation and illumination do not exist on scadrial as natural forces.  Not in any real context.  The surges are a construction that allow humans to explain why certain things happen but I challenge you to measure or define transformation in any meaningful way.

No, the Surges seem to be universal in the same sense that the Metallic Arts and Awakening are universal - so long as you have the means to access your magic system and fuel to power it, you can use all three anywhere in the Cosmere. The only non-universal systems we know of are based on the Dor - and even then only because of the nature of the Dor, which can be potentially worked around (The Ire come to mind).

In Awakening for example, all you need is Breadths and practice/knowledge. For the Metallic Arts, you need the right genes - and this means you need the right heritage or lineage (or access to Lerasium). If you can have those things, you can burn any iron in the Cosmere to ironpull. Similarly arguments for Hemalurgy, except that doesn't even have exclusively specific requirements. It exists everywhere, the requirements aren't exclusive, yet we haven't seen it on every planet (or any planet, at that). Even the knife at the end of OB isn't true Hemalurgy, its only working on the same principles as Hemalurgy. There are also parallels to Wax's feruchemical weight storing and the Surge of Gravitation channelled by the arrowhead spren - they both seem to work on similar principles, but aren't the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Or it just sort of happened.  Many discoveries are based on serendipity.  Shardplate could easily be a separate thing that just sort of happened without anyone expecting it.  Kind of like how humans figured out how to bond dead blades while trying to decorate them.

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I agree. I'm sure the spren were experimenting and shardplate just kind of happened.

I'm not sure I agree with this - the example you give, bonding to Sharblades is something that can feasibly happen by accident. In that, people were trying adornment, except it also did something else. Accidental discoveries are like that - you're trying to do x, and you discover y just happened along the way. But making super armor on the otherhand seems like a different thing, and seems like it has to have intent behind it. There are complex behaviours with Shardplate, and complex requirements to getting access to it too. You could be right in this, it could be accident, but I don't think something that complex and different can be just accident - that has to have been by design.

Edited July 23, 2019 by TheFoxQR

[Karger]

37 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

But making super armor on the otherhand seems like a different thing, and seems like it has to have intent behind it. There are complex behaviours with Shardplate, and complex requirements to getting access to it too. You could be right in this, it could be accident, but I don't think something that complex and different can be just accident - that has to have been by design.

What I am getting at is that shardplate may have just been an outgrowth of whatever the ideal swearing possess that no one realy anticipated or accounted for.

39 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

No, the Surges seem to be universal in the same sense that the Metallic Arts and Awakening are universal - so long as you have the means to access your magic system and fuel to power it, you can use all three anywhere in the Cosmere. The only non-universal systems we know of are based on the Dor - and even then only because of the nature of the Dor, which can be potentially worked around (The Ire come to mind).

You are still misunderstanding me I am not saying that you can't practice any magic system on any world(although it is rather difficult to move surgbinding around for various reasons).  I am saying that the "forces" that surgebinding accesses are not forces but just ideas that float around in the mind of Rosharans. 

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

1. The Stormfather mentions that Jezrein’s powers simply were, and weren’t named until Ishar founded the Knights Radiant. Only then did we get the Windrunner powers, even if they were modelled after Jezrein’s Honorblade. The same goes for every order. Similarly, Honor seems to have created the dual surge framework when he gave the Honorblades to the Heralds.
2. Yet, the Eila Stele mentions that Humans destroyed Ashyn with Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges.

13 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

This weird analogy aside, I strongly suspect that Ashyn had different means to access the same Surges, and that if you wanted to, you could theoretically interact with a surge from anywhere in the Cosmere. My question is simply this - what was the system used before?

Yes, Ashyn had a magic system to access the Surges, which is what the humans used to destroy it.  Whether or not you want the term "Surgebinding" to include that system, or restrict it to just the current instantiation of the Roshar/Heralds/Knights Radiant system is largely a matter of semantics.  

Currently, Ashyn has a disease-based magic system, where you gain powers (i.e. access to Surges) when you're infected with a disease.  However, it is not "exactly the same" as it used to be.  We don't really know how close the old system was to the current system.  

Ashyn will be the setting for The Silence Divine, a forthcoming novel/novella, which we have a reading of on Arcanum.  The powers listed are extremely similar to Rosharan Surgebinding: Gravitation for flight and the floating, inverted cities; Transformation for the liquid changing.  

 

16 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Another weird thing is that it is said that the Shardblade and Shardplate concept was given to the Radiants by the Heralds. If so, what was Surgebinding like before the Shardblade and plate came into the picture? I thought the kind of Surgebinding that was discovered by the Humans, and which came off as unexpected to Heralds, only came forth by the spren trying to copy what Honor did with the Honorblades. If so, wouldn’t Shardblades be a part of that copying? Are there two components to this? Maybe the spren only learnt to bond rudimentarily enough to grant surges, but Ishar then took that and made it work more like the Honorblades? And also brought in the Shardplates?

Where did you see this?  The spren copied the Honorblades, but the Heralds didn't have Shardplate.  

What Ishar did was not bring Surgebinding to the humans/spren; he formed the individual Surgebinders into a cohesive organization - the Knights Radiant.  

 

16 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

One more inconsistency is that Brandon has mentioned in a WoB that he hasn’t yet decided on the exact mechanism for the Human Exodus. They could have directly teleported over, Oathgate travel style, or they could have walked over in the Cognitive. The fact that the details are not so important that they had to be set beforehand I think is pretty strong evidence for the use of the Surge of Transportation, as it covers both those possibilities.

What exactly is inconsistent here?  

 

P.s. I agree that the Surges are Cosmere-wide.  

Edited July 23, 2019 by Scion of the Mists

[agrabes]

16 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

1. The Stormfather mentions that Jezrein’s powers simply were, and weren’t named until Ishar founded the Knights Radiant. Only then did we get the Windrunner powers, even if they were modelled after Jezrein’s Honorblade. The same goes for every order. Similarly, Honor seems to have created the dual surge framework when he gave the Honorblades to the Heralds.
2. Yet, the Eila Stele mentions that Humans destroyed Ashyn with Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges.

How are both of these possible? 

One possibility is the Dawnshards - these are rumored to have been used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Maybe the surgebinding used on Ashyn was only through the Dawnshards, but if so, then the Dawnshards don’t fit the naming scheme. 

Another curious thing is that Surgebinding and Souldcasting were two different magic systems in Nohadon’s mind. Even though Soulcasting is just an applied Surge of Transformation. Also, Uruthiru already exists by Nohadon’s time. So we can safely say that this Uruthiru has not yet been made the seat of the Knights Radiant, that will happen much later down the line. 

Yet another possible explanation is that when the Spren first started emulating Honorblades, their version of the bond was so rudimentary that it only granted the first Surge each order starts with. Possibly this is why each order has the first Oath in common. First Oath Radiants are what all Surgebinders in Nohadon’s era were like. Maybe the spren could also do Shardblades. In this explanation, Ishar came later and upgraded their capability to bond, implementing 4 further Oaths for each Order, teaching them how to grant the other corresponding Surge that Honorblades gave them, and otherwise properly founding both the system of magic and the organisational structure of the Knights Radiant. This is where he gave them Shardplate, and also the second surge.

What do others think of these? Are there other theories out there? What am I missing in this… “rant”?
 

This is a really interesting idea.  Thinking about this brings some good context to things like the decisions of the Knights Radiant to break their oaths, etc.  I'm not sure you're totally right that there are huge inconsistencies here (in the sense of errors in Sanderson's writing) but I do think there is something to the stories about Ashyn's destruction and humanity's migration to Roshar that doesn't quite add up.  I had a few thoughts on some of your points.

1 and 2 are inconsistent only if you assume that the Eila Stele is correct that Humans destroyed Ashyn with "Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges."  It seems logical that someone in world (particularly one of the "Dawnsingers" who knew only Roshar and its magic system) would assume that any magic could be performed only with Spren and Surges as they knew them.  Also, keep in mind that "ancient powers of Spren and Surges" is not "Surgebinding" - there is no formal name in that phrase.  The person who wrote the Eila Stele almost certainly had incomplete information and wrote the Stele from their own limited view.

I don't think that Nohadon thinking that Surgebinding and Soulcasting are two totally different magic systems is particularly relevant.  It's likely that people during his time had different perceptions about the nature of the magic.  Think about "centripetal" and "centrifugal" forces, the forces involved in rotating objects.  These concepts have been understood by physicists for hundreds of years, but Newton's conception of the idea in the 1600s is different than modern physics today.  They were talking about the same effects, but over time we understood them better.  In terms of Urithiru, I don't know that it's necessarily true that Urithiru wasn't the home on the Knights Radiant in Nohadon's time.  Doesn't Nohadon make a pilgrimage to it that he describes in the in world "Way of Kings"?  It's been a while since I read this section of the books, but I don't remember him saying anything that would indicate the Knights Radiant weren't based there.

My impression of Ishar's contributions were that he built up the rules around the bonds.  Prior to Ishar, the spren bonded with humans, formed shard blades and possibly even plate based on whatever each spren and human pair thought was appropriate.  Most likely, the same powers were granted (two surges per radiant spren).  It seems most likely because there isn't anything I've seen in the books that indicates otherwise.  For example, Kaladin immediately had access to both surges once he had access to one.  Neither he nor Shallan gained them one at a time.  Then, there were probably issues like humans breaking bonds, abusing their powers, etc which created the need for Ishar to develop formal rules of how the bond should work and how the Knights Radiant should behave.

[+TheFoxQR]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

1 and 2 are inconsistent only if you assume that the Eila Stele is correct that Humans destroyed Ashyn with "Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges."  It seems logical that someone in world (particularly one of the "Dawnsingers" who knew only Roshar and its magic system) would assume that any magic could be performed only with Spren and Surges as they knew them.  Also, keep in mind that "ancient powers of Spren and Surges" is not "Surgebinding" - there is no formal name in that phrase.  The person who wrote the Eila Stele almost certainly had incomplete information and wrote the Stele from their own limited view.

So I want to point out two things that here, one which agrees with you and one which is questionably against you.

The first is that I do factor in this possibility, when I say:

18 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

1. The Stormfather mentions that Jezrein’s powers simply were, and weren’t named until Ishar founded the Knights Radiant. Only then did we get the Windrunner powers, even if they were modelled after Jezrein’s Honorblade. The same goes for every order. Similarly, Honor seems to have created the dual surge framework when he gave the Honorblades to the Heralds.
2. Yet, the Eila Stele mentions that Humans destroyed Ashyn with Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges.

How are both of these possible?

... 

Another interpretation is that when they say “Of spren and Surges”, they mean that the Surges are the powers of the Spren. As in, to the writer’s perspective, the surges are an attribute not independent of the idea of spren, which makes sense considering the ecology they lived in, and the composite soul, “Forms” based physiology of the Singers. Even if the powers humans had used were just Surges, independent of Spren, to a Singer, they may look like Spren powers. Maybe the original Surgebinding was granted by the Micro-organism based magic system of Ashyn. If so, how does Odium fit in?

...

 The second is an excerpt from Oathbringer:

Spoiler

It is more than that. My memory of all this is … strange. First, I was not fully awake; I was but the spren of a storm. Then I was like a child. Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god. But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you. In the past, Honor was able to guard against this. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now? But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor... promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar. Regardless, I... understand now as I never did before. The ancient Radiants didn’t abandon their oaths out of pettiness. They tried to protect the world. I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. You have cursed me, human, with this capacity.

So... yeah. Tell me what you think.

[ScavellTane]

It could be that spren only started granting Surges after the introduction of the Honorblades. As far as we know back then, a spren grants distinct forms to the Singers but not access to the Surges. When Syl say that the spren copied the Honorblade, there are three distinct components that I could see. The bond, the Surges and the Physical Manifestation (Bladeform). It could be that when an Honorblade is dismissed, it bears some similarity to a spren in the CR or at least the spren could perceive the similarities to copy it.

Edited July 24, 2019 by ScavellTane

[Impact]

3 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

It could be that spren only started granting Surges after the introduction of the Honorblades. As far as we know back then, a spren grants distinct forms to the Singers but not access to the Surges. When Syl say that the spren copied the Honorblade, there are three distinct components that I could see. The bond, the Surges and the Physical Manifestation (Bladeform). It could be that when an Honorblade is dismissed, it bears some similarity to a spren in the CR or at least the spren could perceive the similarities to copy it.

That may be possible, but I do want to point out a WoB that says that the surges granted by spren were not modeled after the Heralds, but are natural pairings. So I think the form of being blades/weapons is modeled after the Honorblades, but not the bonding itself. 

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

 

[+TheFoxQR]

3 hours ago, Impact said:

That may be possible, but I do want to point out a WoB that says that the surges granted by spren were not modeled after the Heralds, but are natural pairings. So I think the form of being blades/weapons is modeled after the Honorblades, but not the bonding itself. 

This is interesting. In a discussion with @Scion of the Mists in another post, they quoted the Stormfather implying that the Fused gained access to Surges at some point after their original creation. So maybe the Fused have nine orders and only one Surge each because that's more natural to Braize?

[Impact]

2 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

This is interesting. In a discussion with @Scion of the Mists in another post, they quoted the Stormfather implying that the Fused gained access to Surges at some point after their original creation. So maybe the Fused have nine orders and only one Surge each because that's more natural to Braize?

Or it could have something to do with singers being partially in the cognitive realm, and the Fused are cognitive shadows and not spren?

[agrabes]

20 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

So I want to point out two things that here, one which agrees with you and one which is questionably against you.

The first is that I do factor in this possibility, when I say:

 The second is an excerpt from Oathbringer:

  Reveal hidden contents

It is more than that. My memory of all this is … strange. First, I was not fully awake; I was but the spren of a storm. Then I was like a child. Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god. But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you. In the past, Honor was able to guard against this. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now? But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor... promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar. Regardless, I... understand now as I never did before. The ancient Radiants didn’t abandon their oaths out of pettiness. They tried to protect the world. I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. You have cursed me, human, with this capacity.

So... yeah. Tell me what you think.

Yeah, the excerpt is an interesting point.  I think what makes this interesting is that the Stormfather makes it clear that he doesn't full understand what happened in those days because he was just gaining consciousness and understanding.  To me that means he remembers what happened, but his mental capacity at that time wasn't strong enough to understand anything beyond the face value.  Sort of like how early on Syl doesn't understand Kaladin's emotions when he looks at the poison plant so she draws the wrong conclusion.  His memory being "strange" is a flag to tell us that he doesn't know the full picture, or that he's probably interpreted something wrong.

He says the Dawnshards were used to "destroy the Tranquilline Halls", referring to Ashyn.  But, that could just as easily mean that the Dawnshards were used to seal the path to Ashyn, destroying the ability to access it, especially if humans didn't have the Dawnshards until they got to Roshar which seems likely.  Another point is that in this memory, he references the Dawnshards and Surgebinders separately.  He says the Dawnshards were used to destroy the Halls and says Surgebinders would destroy Roshar.  The common link is the people - humans who are descended from the original people who left Ashyn.  The weapon used doesn't necessarily seem to be the same.  Honor was raving, probably about things the ancient Radiants didn't understand, like implications for the wider cosmere about what was happening on Roshar.  I think it's most likely that Honor was misunderstood by the Radiants in those days and the Stormfather didn't understand his true intentions either.  I don't think anything in the Stormfather's memory indicates that Ashyn was destroyed by surgebinding.

I think you've kind of hit on a mystery that may not be explained until the back 5.  It all ties back to the origins of the war and the desolations.

[cfphelps]

Regarding shardplate: similar to how the spren were emulating the Honorblades to make Shardblades, maybe they saw traditional plate armor and said, "we can do that better" and made Shardplate. I realize we don't know how Shardplate works yet, but based on the vision where the Windrunner told Dalinar to speak with his spren when Dalinar said he was having trouble with his plate, the main bonded spren must be involved at least as the intermediary to organize it, if not directly. 

[+TheFoxQR]

On 7/24/2019 at 9:08 AM, Impact said:

That may be possible, but I do want to point out a WoB that says that the surges granted by spren were not modeled after the Heralds, but are natural pairings. So I think the form of being blades/weapons is modeled after the Honorblades, but not the bonding itself. 

You know what, I've had a couple of days to let this gestate, and I'm not sure that quote is in any way conclusive. Think about it - Brandon's answer is decidedly odd.

He says the pairs are as natural as the metals on Scadrial. But nothing on Scadrial is "natural". Everything is constructed. If Brandon's talking about how there is a decided metal-power combination, well then that entire framework was created by Preservation. It was Leras who decided what metals to use, and what powers they will give.

Another way of interpreting it could be simply to say that the Surge Pairs co-relate to metal-alloy push-pull pairs. But even then, it was Preservation that decided on those things. That constructed structure was sort of the point of the whole system there.

So in essence, Brandon basically seems to be saying that Honor or Adonalsium decided and created things for those Surge Pairs to mean something. They are arbitrary to the Shard, and potentially allude to something, but they are not a naturally occurring property of the planet.

Edited July 26, 2019 by TheFoxQR

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:49 AM, TheFoxQR said:

This is interesting. In a discussion with @Scion of the Mists in another post, they quoted the Stormfather implying that the Fused gained access to Surges at some point after their original creation. So maybe the Fused have nine orders and only one Surge each because that's more natural to Braize?

I think this is it. The Surges themselves are probably common across the entire Greater Roshar solar system. The KR and Heralds have the bond-based, 10 Orders, paired Surges system; the Fused have a 9 Orders, single Surge system (initiation not yet known); and the original humans of Ashyn had a third system we don't know - but all three are different ways of accessing the same basic powers.

5 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

You know what, I've had a couple of days to let this gestate, and I'm not sure that quote is in any way conclusive. Think about it - Brandon's answer is decidedly odd.

He says the pairs are as natural as the metals on Scadrial. But nothing on Scadrial is "natural". Everything is constructed.

Well, what is meant by "natural"? It's not just Scadrial, Frost says that "these worlds bear the touch and design of Adonalsium".

I think 'natural' is being used in the sense of 'inherent to the thing under discussion' (ie in the same sense as 'human nature'), not in the sense of 'occurring without intelligent intervention'.

That is, the Surge pairs are inherent to Roshar. Honor didn't just arbitrarily say "hey I think it would be cool to put Adhesion and Gravitation together"; instead, Honor decided to grant Surgebinding powers, but the way Roshar is put together means that Surgebinding powers manifest in these specific ways.

Shards do have some degree of freedom to mess with things, (Mistborn)

Spoiler

like Sazed altering Snapping or Leras/Preservation swapping Atium/Malatium Mistings for Cadmium/Bendalloy ones.

But there are significant limits -- I don't think Honor could just have decided to make an Honorblade with Gravitation, Abrasion, and Transportation.

Edited July 26, 2019 by cometaryorbit
combining 2 replies

[+TheFoxQR]

31 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think this is it. The Surges themselves are probably common across the entire Greater Roshar solar system. The KR and Heralds have the bond-based, 10 Orders, paired Surges system; the Fused have a 9 Orders, single Surge system (initiation not yet known); and the original humans of Ashyn had a third system we don't know - but all three are different ways of accessing the same basic powers.

Well, what is meant by "natural"? It's not just Scadrial, Frost says that "these worlds bear the touch and design of Adonalsium".

I think 'natural' is being used in the sense of 'inherent to the thing under discussion' (ie in the same sense as 'human nature'), not in the sense of 'occurring without intelligent intervention'.

That is, the Surge pairs are inherent to Roshar. Honor didn't just arbitrarily say "hey I think it would be cool to put Adhesion and Gravitation together"; instead, Honor decided to grant Surgebinding powers, but the way Roshar is put together means that Surgebinding powers manifest in these specific ways.

Shards do have some degree of freedom to mess with things, (Mistborn)

But there are significant limits -- I don't think Honor could just have decided to make an Honorblade with Gravitation, Abrasion, and Transportation.

Scadrial is an entirely artificially constructed planet - made by Preservation and Ruin post-Shattering. Nothing on it came from Adonalsium, that was all Preservation and Ruin. This includes almost everything on Scadrial, including Humankind. And most importantly, it includes the magic systems.

I do think that if Honor wanted to, he could have made an Honorblade that grants all 10 Surges. This is exactly what Yelig-nar does. He grants all 10 Surges.

Now there are limitations in place - namely giving all 10 surges at once would probably make individual surges so stormlight-inefficient, that they would be practically useless. Like there seems to be limited place in the soul, after which it just gets too bloated. After much consideration, I do think the Surge Pairs Honor chose were arbitrary, but meaningful in the sense that he (Honor) chose pairs that would have maximum possible effect in a certain direction.

For example, Windrunners have greater strength of Squires. This is because they have the surge pair of Adhesion-Gravitation. Gravitation allows lots of people to form connections to them easily (people naturally gravitate to them), adhesion makes those connections stronger (it bonds people together). Similarly, the Surgepairs may have been chosen for their mutual effects, rather than a natural outgrowth of the planet.

Edited July 26, 2019 by TheFoxQR

[cometaryorbit]

7 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

Scadrial is an entirely artificially constructed planet - made by Preservation and Ruin post-Shattering. Nothing on it came from Adonalsium, that was all Preservation and Ruin. This includes almost everything on Scadrial, including Humankind. And most importantly, it includes the magic systems.

Sure. but Roshar is presumably also artificial (Julia set continent, etc.) - just the work of Adonalsium rather than one or two specific Shards. But I think the same principle applies, decisions made in the creation of the planet itself largely (though not entirely) fix what the magic systems will be.

Quote

I do think that if Honor wanted to, he could have made an Honorblade that grants all 10 Surges. This is exactly what Yelig-nar does. He grants all 10 Surges.

Yelig-nar, sure, but I think the Unmade are something completely different that is basically outside "magic systems" in the sense that we normally mean, more like the Stormfather's ability to create a highstorm or the Nightwatcher's Old Magic boons/banes. I think the unique powers of these mega-spren are more like the abilities of Shards than the magic systems used by humans; it's just that in Yelig-nar's case, he can "hijack" the Rosharan spren bonding system to grant those powers to a human.

So I guess what I said before wasn't quite right. Honor probably could have Invested a significant part of his power to create an unique Honorblade that could grant all 10 Surges (though I'm still not sure "off-pair" combinations like Gravitation+Abrasion+Transportation would work), but it would have remained an unique one-off. The spren couldn't have copied it to become part of a magic system used by many different individuals.

14 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

 Similarly, the Surgepairs may have been chosen for their mutual effects, rather than a natural outgrowth of the planet.

I really can't see that WoB as being compatible with Honor choosing Surge pairs for specific purposes, since Honor didn't design the planet. Adonalsium making the planet in a way that the Surge pairs were ones that made sense, yeah, but not Honor deciding on them "after the fact".