Nature of Shardplate

[Elsecaller_17.5]

I’ve seen a lot of people talking about how Shardplate is formed from the lesser cousin spren, of the radiant spren, but I haven’t been able to find any evidence pointing to that. Where did people come up with and what are the biggest points in the theory’s favor?

[RShara]

I think people believe this due to Kaladin attracting windspren in Shadesmar and during his windbreak, in OB, Shallan attracting creationspren when she's really in the zone for her art, and the masses of gloryspren around Dalinar.

I really liked the theory at first but it actually has a ton of holes in it, so I'm on the other side of the fence now.

1. We never see any spren around the Radiants when they are actually close to or in the process of manifesting Plate, such as Dalinar in the vision with Venli, the Radiants in the Starfalls visions, and Jasnah when Adolin sees glowing lines fading around her.

2. As lesser spren, they would have their own Identity, which would prevent them from being able to affect it with their surges, but again, in the Starfalls vision, the Windrunners were able to Lash themselves in their Shardplate.

3. Pieces of Shardplate can be completely shattered and destroyed. What would that do to the spren?

4. If you regrow Shardplate, it can form completely new pieces and any fragments in others' hands crumble to dust. Again, how would this work with lesser spren?

5. We never see any spren around when Shardplate is shattered, destroyed, regrown, etc.

6. Radiants hear the spren scream when they touch a dead Shardblade. They never hear screaming with inert Shardplate.

I'm sure there are more reasons I'm forgetting.

[IllNsickly]

I was on board with Lesser Spren for a long time as well, but reasons... similar to @RShara.

I feel like it has to be something else.

Condensed Investiture.

It is mentioned several times that ‘Only the Voidbringers’ were able to hold Stormlight perfectly. If Shardplate were condensed Investiture, that would make sense. Anyone sufficiently progressed to create Plate would simply feed their plate with whatever Stormlight escaped through their body and breathing.

[CleverCremling]

What are the theories about the sparkling lights around Kaladin in Shadesmar when he was having his meaningful thoughts on the ship? He was almost about to get his plate then right? 

[RShara]

13 minutes ago, CleverCremling said:

What are the theories about the sparkling lights around Kaladin in Shadesmar when he was having his meaningful thoughts on the ship? He was almost about to get his plate then right? 

No, because he hadn't even sworn the 4th Ideal yet, nor was he close to it. And those were windspren, which is what I mentioned in my post above. He wasn't even thinking of the 4th Ideal at that moment.

Edited July 9, 2019 by RShara

[CleverCremling]

Wasn’t it just as Kaladin was thinking how he couldn’t save everyone. . . And Syl urging him to ‘say the words’ and saying that he is close to the 4th ideal a few chapters later? I could be wrong, I do need to reread. 

So they were just wind spren. Fair enough

Edited July 9, 2019 by CleverCremling

[RShara]

49 minutes ago, CleverCremling said:

Wasn’t it just as Kaladin was thinking how he couldn’t save everyone. . . And Syl urging him to ‘say the words’ and saying that he is close to the 4th ideal a few chapters later? I could be wrong, I do need to reread. 

So they were just wind spren. Fair enough

It was a while later, a few days, iirc. They were still on the ship at the time, and the place where he failed to say the 4th was by Thaylenah, and they had to walk quite a ways.

[CleverCremling]

Ok i’ll Accept that. They way the sailor spren were in awe of Kaladin I presumed something ‘Radianty’ was happening. May have been nothing to do with Shardplate or oaths. Kaladin has done weird powerful like when he protected people against the highstorm part one of OB

[Bigmikey357]

@RShara and I disagree on the formation of Shardplate. I happen to be in the camp that believes that it's formed from lesser, cousin spren. Unfortunately we're just going to have to RAFO because the texual evidence both for and against is vague at best, likely an intentional choice by Brandon. We could perhaps discuss the reason I feel the way I do and refute the points other detractors have brought up but I think we covered that in a previous thread.

[RShara]

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@RShara and I disagree on the formation of Shardplate. I happen to be in the camp that believes that it's formed from lesser, cousin spren. Unfortunately we're just going to have to RAFO because the texual evidence both for and against is vague at best, likely an intentional choice by Brandon. We could perhaps discuss the reason I feel the way I do and refute the points other detractors have brought up but I think we covered that in a previous thread.

More than likely

[Nymeros]

From what I remember:

-Precedent. If True Spren can condense into the physical realm as a metallic material, why not the lesser mindless spren?

-Radiants seem to frequently attract specific lesser sperm: windspren for Windrunners, creationspren for Lightweavera, gloryspren for Bondsmiths. Elhokar even noted that gloryspren appear more frequently around Dalinar and the Herald portraits that we see in Oathbringer feature the same sperm.

-Windrunners gain Plate at the fourth oath. When Kaladin begins drawing close to the fourth oath, he attracts windspren though the he is in Shadesmar and there is no wind....i cannot think of any reasonable explanation for this other than those spren being drawn to his oaths. 

-Syl's talk about rounding up and directing spren

-Jasnah being surrounded by lines of light taking geometric forms seems to point to individual points of power converging

[RShara]

13 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

From what I remember:

-Precedent. If True Spren can condense into the physical realm as a metallic material, why not the lesser mindless spren?

-Radiants seem to frequently attract specific lesser sperm: windspren for Windrunners, creationspren for Lightweavera, gloryspren for Bondsmiths. Elhokar even noted that gloryspren appear more frequently around Dalinar and the Herald portraits that we see in Oathbringer feature the same sperm.

-Windrunners gain Plate at the fourth oath. When Kaladin begins drawing close to the fourth oath, he attracts windspren though the he is in Shadesmar and there is no wind....i cannot think of any reasonable explanation for this other than those spren being drawn to his oaths. 

-Syl's talk about rounding up and directing spren

-Jasnah being surrounded by lines of light taking geometric forms seems to point to individual points of power converging

I covered most of those in my post above

None of the lesser spren are around when the Radiants are actually close to manifesting Plate or are actually Manifesting Plate.

Kaladin thinks briefly on the 4th Oath and he draws windspren to him. But when he's actually trying to swear it, there's no windspren around. And the Oath doesn't mean Plate auto-appears around them. It seems to take intention and thought.

Not sure how that's relevant.

No spren around when she's doing that.

[CrazyRioter]

iirc there actually was windspren around when he was trying to swear the Fourth Ideal, so.

I do think there's some connection between lesser spren and Plate, though I agree that the idea that Plate is comprised of lesser spren has some serious issues.

[Nymeros]

7 hours ago, RShara said:

I covered most of those in my post above

None of the lesser spren are around when the Radiants are actually close to manifesting Plate or are actually Manifesting Plate.

Kaladin thinks briefly on the 4th Oath and he draws windspren to him. But when he's actually trying to swear it, there's no windspren around. And the Oath doesn't mean Plate auto-appears around them. It seems to take intention and thought.

Not sure how that's relevant.

No spren around when she's doing that.

Ah yeah, I was just answering the OP as to what led to the belief that lesser spren could be Plate. I'm not particularly attached to that theory though I dont mind responding to your points:

- I think that the spren manifest in the physical realm as Plate once that level has been reached and they have been summoned. Essentially, their function changes and they become "shardplatespren."

-Kaladin did summon windspren at the oathgate....but he wasn't going to swear the oath at that time. I feel that he was closer to the oath and his bond deeper when he was contemplating on the ship than when he was desperate to save the team at the oathgate. Yes, he was trying to say the words but he just wasn't there. That wasnt the moment. Its similar to Lopen (apparently) intentionally trying to get a power up at the Thaylenar battle but failing only to accidentally advance while contemplating the 3rd oath later.

Intention and thought on the part of the partnered true spren to start. Which leads into....

-This point. People find Syl's comments interesting as they could easily be forshadowing her role in molding subspren into their new role as Plate. As spren of Plate which were shaped by the true spren, the spren would be tied to the identy of the Radiant and shouldnt interfere with Plate. 

-See my first point. I find it relevant that there are small points of power converging into specific shapes.

 

Regarding one of your earlier points, I dont think subspren are actually.....alive? Not really capable of conscious thought and so wouldn't scream.

Its also worth noting that Plate bonds with its wearer but to a lesser extent that Blades.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Nymeros

[RShara]

Quote

“I think something might be wrong with my armor!” Dalinar shouted to him. “I can’t make my helm retract!”

In response, the other Radiant made his vanish. Dalinar caught sight of a puff of Light or mist.

Beneath the helm, the man had dark skin and curly black hair. His eyes glowed blue. “Retract your helm?” he shouted. “You haven’t summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you.”

Oh, Dalinar thought. “I mean earlier. It wouldn’t vanish when I wanted it to.”

“Talk to Harkaylain then, or to your spren.” The Windrunner frowned. “Will this be a problem for our mission?”

Quote

The man’s helm materialized, then he plunged toward the monsters. Dalinar remembered that descent from the vision—like a falling star come to rescue Dalinar and the family.

Quote

He fell beside the hole’s perimeter, and stretched one hand toward Venli. His other ground against the rock wall, hand scraping the stone. Something flashed around his arm. Lines of light, a framework that covered his body. His fingers didn’t bleed as they scraped the stone.

Quote

Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin, looking completely nonplussed. A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her …

None of these mention points of power converging into shapes, or spren, for that matter.

The lesser spren are at least sentient--they're aware enough to be attracted to emotions and some of them exhibit predator behavior when the crew is physically in Shadesmar. As spren with their own Identities, even lesser ones, it should interfere with investiture being used on it. Or, if the lesser spren don't have enough Identity to interfere, then they shouldn't interfere with anyone *else* using investiture on them.

And there's still the problem of how Shardplate shatters and turns to dust or regrows...

Edited July 10, 2019 by RShara

[Ethan_sedai]

When Syl says she can shape bits of Honor, I just thought that Shardplate would be made of Stormlight, because Stormlight is essentially just bits of Honor.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Ethan_Sedai

[Bigmikey357]

My guess is that Shardplate is both Stormlight and lesser spren. The Nahel Bonded spren, say Syl for example, creates the framework, the bones of the suit. The lesser spren fill in that framework, thus coding their identities to that framework. Stormlight powers the machine. Why don't outside observers actually see the spren? I think that you would if you were looking into the Cognitive. In the Physical all you see is the spren adhering to the framework provided by the HSIC (head spren in charge). For me, I cannot see how dead plate wouldn't have disappeared after the Recreance if it were just condensed Stormlight. There's nothing inherent in Stormlight for it to naturally revert to nearly sentient armor.

[Pathfinder]

On 7/9/2019 at 10:10 PM, RShara said:

None of these mention points of power converging into shapes, or spren, for that matter.

The lesser spren are at least sentient--they're aware enough to be attracted to emotions and some of them exhibit predator behavior when the crew is physically in Shadesmar. As spren with their own Identities, even lesser ones, it should interfere with investiture being used on it. Or, if the lesser spren don't have enough Identity to interfere, then they shouldn't interfere with anyone *else* using investiture on them.

And there's still the problem of how Shardplate shatters and turns to dust or regrows...

So just had a thought I wanted to ask you regarding your theory. Now to be clear, I am not asking this in an attempt to disprove your theory. I am genuinely curious as to your answer regarding resolving this question within your theory. So here it is. I was re-reading a WoB from Brandon regarding a soulcaster being able to soulcast shardplate, and that by doing so, the plate would be destroyed. If shardplate is made of condensed stormlight, why would soulcasting destroy it? Another WoB states by soulcasting a metal mind to a different metal, the investiture would still be present, just it would be inaccessible. While with shardplate he states it would be destroyed. So if shardplate is made of condensed stormlight (investiture) why would it be destroyed? Both WoB below:

 

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

Questioner

Can Shardplate be Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

[Karger]

I have adopted the calcified stormlight theory(shardplate is just stomlight in solid form) but it is not currently popular.

[RShara]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So just had a thought I wanted to ask you regarding your theory. Now to be clear, I am not asking this in an attempt to disprove your theory. I am genuinely curious as to your answer regarding resolving this question within your theory. So here it is. I was re-reading a WoB from Brandon regarding a soulcaster being able to soulcast shardplate, and that by doing so, the plate would be destroyed. If shardplate is made of condensed stormlight, why would soulcasting destroy it? Another WoB states by soulcasting a metal mind to a different metal, the investiture would still be present, just it would be inaccessible. While with shardplate he states it would be destroyed. So if shardplate is made of condensed stormlight (investiture) why would it be destroyed? Both WoB below:

 

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

Questioner

Can Shardplate be Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

I actually didn't propose any theory? I only counter the proposal that Shardplate is made out of the lesser spren. And your WoBs there would work against that theory, too.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

I actually didn't propose any theory? I only counter the proposal that Shardplate is made out of the lesser spren. And your WoBs there would work against that theory, too.

I thought you were a proponent of @Calderis theory that shardplate is condensed stormlight? I have thoughts on why the WoB would work within the lesser spren theory, but as I said, my intention was not to disprove the condensed stormlight theory. Just try to understand if there was something about it that accounted for that WoB. 

 

edit: I tagged him so he could ring in. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I thought you were a proponent of Calderis's theory that shardplate is condensed stormlight? I have thoughts on why the WoB would work within the lesser spren theory, but as I said, my intention was not to disprove the condensed stormlight theory. Just try to understand if there was something about it that accounted for that WoB. 

I currently favor it slightly, but I'm firmly in the camp of refusing to theorize in advance of data.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, RShara said:

I currently favor it slightly, but I'm firmly in the camp of refusing to theorize in advance of data.

Ah, thank you. I understand your position better now. Well guess just gotta wait for Calderis's response. 

[Bigmikey357]

The difference between a metalmind and a piece of Shardplate is that the metal in a metalmind is not changed by the addition of Investiture. Gold is still gold regardless if it's storing health or not. Meanwhile Shardplate, whatever it is made of, it won't be Shardplate anymore if one changes it to something else. Shardplate isn't holding Investiture, it is Investiture.

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The difference between a metalmind and a piece of Shardplate is that the metal in a metalmind is not changed by the addition of Investiture. Gold is still gold regardless if it's storing health or not. Meanwhile Shardplate, whatever it is made of, it won't be Shardplate anymore if one changes it to something else. Shardplate isn't holding Investiture, it is Investiture.

Well the reason I brought it up is my understanding of the condensed stormlight theory is that the radiant condenses the stormlight into plate/solid that is invested. If a soulcaster soulcasted that plate into steel instead, shouldn't the metal just change from "shardplate" metal, into "steel" metal, locking the stormlight/investiture away from use? The WoB says it would destroy it. So it sounded like the result would be different. At least that was my reading of it. 

edit: for example, people are invested. Obviously much less than shardplate, yet if they are soulcasted, they retain their form (assuming you don't choose fire or smoke, etc), while Brandon says twice soulcasting would destroy the plate. I dunno, maybe I am reading too much into things, but I feel it is of note. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Pathfinder