Book 4 Predictions

[Karger he/him]

This is probably unfair but I feel like Kaladin Jasnah shippers identify way to much as Kaladin and are acting a bit like Amaram.

[Harbour he/him]

Highly doubt Adolin and Shallan would have a kid. The cast is already pretty tight, so introduction of the new, pretty significant, objective for Adolin and Shallan to focus on seems like not the most rational decision, especially since OB got some critique about being too unfocused and too vast.

I personally also dont see Shallan being mother. She is clearly a kid herself, as i saw her in OB, and its kinda ineffective to push her towards such a high bar as caring for a child without resolving her own issues first.

Maybe in Book 5 or between Book 5 and Book 6.

Also, if Shallan and Adolin will have a child, it would be girl 100%. I believe Oroden, Gavinor and Shallan's daughter would be the main trio of Books 6-10. First one was introduced for a reason, and not just to be an object to add to Kaladin motivation in the beginning of OB. Him and Gavinor would be friends and/or foes, with third character, female one, added into mix to form classic trio.

 

As for Jasnah and Kaladin, i find the concept itself fascinating and interesting to explore, but i also cant see anything that implies the potential development in romantic route, besides them bickering once and sharing some qualities both respect and find nice.

Though, imagine them deciding to work under some war plans or even science plans. Slowly, one shared scene of discussions after another. Kaladin helps her resolve some stuff, Jasnah helps Kaladin to resolve his stuff.

Boom, one day one of them or both feels fine being with each other in one room.

There is no too much "tryhard" on Brandon side. He doesnt even imply there would be something romantic. He doesnt focus on them too much.

Just two people working and talking, like Dalinar and Kaladin in WoR.

Slowly, scene after scene, they share some fun between, then there is some hard time but they manage to go through it, and then boom, there is one spark, and they have some hot intimate interaction .

Something like that can work out but there need to be some slow and patient development.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Harbour

[Pathfinder]

So instead of quoting and tagging a whole bunch of people and trying to organize it all, I will just hit the main points I want to.

First, regarding the theory of using awakening to revive Maya. Sorry to be a buzz kill but it has been asked and answered. I think unless there is a way to make the breaths have Connection, or considered "Maya investiture", it will not work. Hence my theory regarding Bondsmith Dalinar using connection to get through the interference. WoB below

 

Questioner

If you were to try and Awaken a dead Shardblade with Awakening, like you can with a metal sword, would that be possible, or what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably not work. Not probably. That would just not work.

Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017)

 

Questioner

Can you awaken a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Can you Awaken a Shardblade? A Shardblade would already be defined as Awakened, by the magic systems.

Questioner

And what about the Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

Plate would already be defined as probably too heavily Invested to Awaken because it already is.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

Questioner

So is it possible to Awaken a Shardblade? That's the question-- that's my question for you.

Brandon Sanderson

Um... With the magic system of Awakening, you mean?

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

So, all forms of Investiture strongly resist other forms of Investiture.

Questioner

Makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

*brief interruption* Nightblood is essentially an Awakened... Trying to do that.

Questioner

'Cause he shows up in Words of Radiance, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, it-- let's just say it'd be very, very hard. Because it's like saying, "Can-- I want to turn on a lightbulb that's been turned on." Yes, you can... maybe... I don't know what that even means. It's already Invested. It's already Awakened.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

 

Now as to Jasnah. Jasnah in Oathbringer makes it pretty clear why she wants nothing to do with Amaram, and it has nothing to do with a list of accomplishments. He doesn't respect nor understand her beliefs (atheism), he is attempting to manipulate Dalinar, and he presents a false face that she has seen under and wants nothing to do with (false face confirmed via WoB that I can pull up if requested). 

Regarding Jasnah and Kaladin. I have spoke about this before with Falchion before. Not writing this to go back and forth about it again (not that there was anything wrong with doing so prior). We have already said all we are going to say on the topic to each other, and would just be rehashing all our old reasoning. The only reason I am saying this, is someone mentioned wondering if there is anyone else out there that does not support that ship, so I am responding yes there is, and why. Falchion totally respect your beliefs and why, so I am not writing this to say you are wrong, or not entitled to think that way. 

I personally do not see a benefit to the coupling on an economical, societal, familial, nor personal level.

 

economical/ruling

Jasnah has been named Queen. She was chosen because Adolin, Dalinar, Shallan, Navani, Renarin and etc all agree that Jasnah is capable of ruling. Capable of keeping the highprinces in line. And keeping the country together in a time of war and exile. She has years of experience as a ruler. Kaladin does not. Not saying he couldn't learn such skills, but the idea he would become king and thereby rule in her stead I feel would be counterproductive. If Kaladin acted as consort, again I personally do not see in what way Kaladin in particular holds any credentials that would be beneficial in governance of a country at war and exile. He is a surgeon and a soldier. Much of administrative duties regarding leading his men he completely forgot about till Sigzil brought it to his attention, and Sigzil largely took charge of. So could Kaladin learn these skills? Sure. But I do not see Kaladin having such skills to aid Jasnah in her ruling duties. Additionally Kaladin being a knight radiant would not add any legitimacy to her rule as she is a knight radiant herself, so does not need the additional clout. This will be further elaborated on:

 

societal

A marriage between Jasnah and Kaladin does not seem to me to be one that would aid her with the church, or the general poor masses. If the church takes issue with Jasnah due to being a radiant, they would also take issue with kaladin for the same reason. If the church takes issue with Jasnah's atheism, they would also take issue with Kaladin's agnosticism (Kaladin being agnostic is confirmed via WoB). So Kaladin, to me does not look any more appealing to the church than Jasnah, so would not be beneficial in that regard. Kaladin, to me, is not a "man of the people". He protects those who need protecting, but fighting for people's rights and caring for them is an egdedancer deal. Dalinar assigned Kaladin land and people to rule, and Kaladin's first thought is what is he going to do with that. If the land he rules gets attacked, then he is perfect to fly in and defend, but speak to him about feeding the poor, working on societal changes, and giving voice to the disenfranchised, and I feel Kaladin would be lost in translation. To me it takes a different skill set. A skill set I feel he lacks, and thereby wouldn't be advantageous. 

 

familial

This somewhat overlaps with the first two, but the basics of this one are this. Kaladin is already tied to Kholin via swearing fealty to Elhokar (prior to death) due to being a lord of lands in alethkar and thereby a vassal of Elhokar. Now that Jasnah is queen, that would extend to her. Marriage wouldn't be needed to accomplish that. Further marriage for an heir is not needed as Gavinor exists. He is heir apparent already. Finally Gavinor bringing Jasnah and Kaladin together doesn't make sense to me as Kaladin (to me) never expressed unique interest in the child during the entire Kholinar arc, as well as after. Skar and Drehy are the ones that saved the child, "protecting those that cannot protect themselves". He didn't even know Gavinor survived till he saw him with Skar and Drehy. Kaladin focusing on his little brother? Totally! But Elhokar's kid? I just don't see it.

 

personal

Finally going beyond practical expectations and reasons, there is the whole wanting to be in a relationship because you actually care for the person, or can grow together. I just don't personally see it for them. Jasnah has a very deep character, with strong emotions and attachments to her family. She largely keeps that hidden as a defense mechanism, and it also is not brought to the fore because her main arc won't be till the back five of the series. The smile she gave Kaladin, was the same exact smile (description, timing and all) that she gave Amaram when she summoned her shardblade ready to duel him to the death. It did not sound like a smile of interest to me, but a smile of triumph when out maneuvering an opponent. Every time Shallan has spoken to Jasnah in a reasoned, and thoughtful way, Jasnah has expressed being impressed and care for Shallan. That moment with Kaladin was the opposite. He did not provide alternatives. He did not have a cogent argument in response. He just said "can we not?". When asked for reasonable actionable alternatives, Kaladin had none except to again say "can we not?". Now I did not write that to criticize Kaladin, nor say he was wrong to object. My intention was to show Jasnah's reaction was one of frustration with what she perceived as a proverbial brick wall. Not interest piqued from intellectual discourse. I do think they will learn to work together, but I do not see romantic feelings forming from that. Sure it can be said opposites attract, but there is a point where conflict does not breed attraction. At least to me. 

 

So again, not saying this to say anyone is wrong or right. Just responding to the query as to if there are others out there that disagree with the Kaladin Jasnah pairing and why. I wish everyone luck with their ships, and theories and I cannot wait to read Rhythm of War regardless where it takes us!

[Use the Falchion]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I am actually 70% sure that Renarin is gay

I wouldn't say that the thought hasn't passed my mind, but I'm not sure so I can't say either way at the moment. 

7 hours ago, Karger said:

is going to hook up with that hot Theylen prince(the one Dalinar beat up).

And so you DO ship characters! Well, I don't think it'll turn out this way, but you keep on. 

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I also ship Lift with Gawx(they are actually friends and the same age).

They're a cute couple! But as much as I like their ship, it's not nearly as fun. Going the predictable route isn't always the fun one, after all. 

 

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Can you see Jasnah at a bar looking for a one night stand?

To scratch an itch she may have so she can focus on other things? So long as it's discreet, absolutely. 

7 hours ago, Karger said:

She explicitly does not discuss her sexuality.

Quote

Questioner

Does/is Jasnah gay?

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah prefers to keep her sexuality a subject of non-discussion. That is how Jasnah would answer. She would rather not discuss her sexuality.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

I'm aware of that quote, and I'm saying until she decides TO discuss it, there's no harm in shipping. So long as it doesn't overpower her non-romantic arcs (which Kaladin most definitely wouldn't), there's no problem. 

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I actually could get behind them as a team up.  I actually really like complex nonromantic relationships(hands off my platonic ships thank you).

Finally something we can agree on! We just differ on which should be non-romantic and which shouldn't.

8 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Shallan kills Pattern ( He said multiple times, she would kill him) and changes sides to Odium.

I could believe that! I also agree on the Shadolin baby. I'm not sure I can agree with the rest at the moment, but you make a really interesting (and probably true) point about this being Sanderson's darkest book. Our heroes haven't won, per-se, but they haven't lost too much yet either. 

8 hours ago, USS bridge four said:

I currently can't think of any predictions but I would like to see Tarah in this book and lots more Rlain.

Why is Lirin always the one that has to die for Kaladin? Both his parents are still alive maybe Brandon will leave his parents alive just to change it up a bit. Also I'm genuinely curious when yinz use asexual do y'all also mean aromantic as well for Jasnah?

Also I don't know if I used those to terms right. 

I think people usually mean both asexual and aromantic when referring to Jasnah. Parsing out the difference is...not worth the hassle for discussions sometimes. One must pick their battles after all.

I hope Lirin stays alive! He's a unique view in Stormlight. ...I just wouldn't put it past Sanderson to kill him...

 

@PathfinderThanks for the tags and quotes...and killing my long-held theory about Adolin and Awakening   You make a really interesting point about Dalinar Bondsmithing them together. I still think Adolin can find a way to use the process of Awakening while using Stormlight (similar to what Vasher does to get Investiture that's not Stormlight, but now in the reverse of sorts), but I'll give your theory some thought too! We agree to disagree on Jasnah, but as you say we've already had that talk.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Use the Falchion

[BloomAgeOne]

6 hours ago, Harbour said:

Also, if Shallan and Adolin will have a child, it would be girl 100%. I believe Oroden, Gavinor and Shallan's daughter would be the main trio of Books 6-10. First one was introduced for a reason, and not just to be an object to add to Kaladin motivation in the beginning of OB. Him and Gavinor would be friends and/or foes, with third character, female one, added into mix to form classic trio.

 

This is an interesting idea, but I always expected Books 6-10 to focus on the characters who will have flashbacks in those books (including Taln and Ash). I'm really looking forward to getting more viewpoints from the various heralds, with Oroden, Gavinor and Shallan and Adolin's future children been secondary characters in a similar way to how Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan will be more secondary in Books 6 - 10.

 

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

First, regarding the theory of using awakening to revive Maya. Sorry to be a buzz kill but it has been asked and answered. I think unless there is a way to make the breaths have Connection, or considered "Maya investiture", it will not work. Hence my theory regarding Bondsmith Dalinar using connection to get through the interference. WoB below

 

Thanks for the clarification. I'm a bit disappointed that this can't happen, but understand why it really doesn't make sense in-universe.

[joesleepsalot he/him]

Man, I’m not convinced either way for book 4’s romance scene predictions still....lol. With regards to that one piece of the pie, my prediction still leans as follows:

IF Jasnah and or Kaladin get involved at all, I still think it’ll likely be with each other.
Granted, the reasons outlined above are good reasons against it. 
 

But generally speaking, when does reason ever really reign in this realm? People make impulsive decisions and also get swept away by emotion all the time. Generally, happily married couples don’t wake up everyday planning to cheat on their spouse but it happens daily, despite a ruined life if caught. The smartest people on earth do things that make zero sense on a routine basis. Especially with regards to the opposite sex etc. I think everyone on this forum can think of someone in real life in a Jasnah situation who gets caught doing way worse than a hypothetical Kaladin hookup lol. We see this stuff daily. 

Analytically, the cons are pretty solid.
 

From an equally analytical standpoint based on humanity and how people are, I would absolutely not rule Jasnadin out of the possibilities for book 4. 
 

Brandon has enough realism with people to allow for such human decisions, regrets, or whatever else. I’m probably wrong haha, Oh well. 

[Goatbringer he/him]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I am actually 70% sure that Renarin is gay and is going to hook up with that hot Theylen prince(the one Dalinar beat up). 

Of all the things I read in the last few posts, this one is the one that I can absolutely get behind. 

Wait, am I just into these books for the shipping?

*intense self reflection commences*

[Naohiro-Son-Kalak]

Man, Idk

I don't think many would be satisfied if Jasnah-Kaladin Didn't work... I mean this is Brando Sando, I doubt he's not gonna give a relationship Kaladin, but all other potential relationships are JUST too predictable...

[Raphaborn]

On 29/04/2020 at 3:16 AM, Goatbringer said:

Man he's definitely gonna die. If there's one thing I'm almost sure of in this book it's that Lirin's gonna die so that Kaladin can get to his Fourth Ideal.

And that’s exactly why it shouldn’t happen, it’s too cliche. Kaladin is already such a different protagonist precisely because he has had a family for most of his life, and even his departure and distance was necessary for his character construction as he was at that time. His father returning just to die is just a very tedious genre convention.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Raphaborn

[Harbour he/him]

I wouldnt be surprised if Kaladin's parents will live even after 10th book.

[Karger he/him]

23 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

And so you DO ship characters! Well, I don't think it'll turn out this way, but you keep on. 

I ship characters with a semirealistic chance of being together(as in some potential interests has been expressed). 

23 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

To scratch an itch she may have so she can focus on other things? So long as it's discreet, absolutely. 

Thing is I can see Jasnah just ignoring the itch indefinitely via willpower.

[Frustration]

Ok, why is everyone just calling ships?

There is more to the book than that.

[NameIess]

I think that Kaladin is going to either swear the fourth ideal or die.

Hopefully we get some Herald action, even if it's Nale killing off a bunch of Bridge 4.

I think that Moash might start to show some guilt.

Shallan and Adolin might have some problems with their relationship, but I think they'll survive them, they just won't be the stereotypical "perfect match"

Dalinar will be Dalinar and do Dalinar things.

Nightblood will do Nightblood things.

I don't think that it will happen, but it would be pretty funny if the beginning scene was Kaladin fighting Fused, about to swear the fourth ideal, and then it cut to Shallan being woken up by Pattern, who tells her that her baby is awake and crying.

[Raphaborn]

I really hope that Shallan and Kaladin will solve this chull in the room about Helaran.
Although Shallan's DID plot is very interesting to me, I would like her to make progress on this (since it will probably be a requirement for her to further improve her ability as Lightweaving and Soulcasting).
I want Adolin to make progress on his journey as a Radiant, I particularly don't mind him becoming a powered character. Preferably helping Maya.
I really want Dalinar to make progress in his Bondsmith skills, especially with Perpendicularity.
I hope that Renarin will have a greater role from now on. Its secrets make it very justified that it has been tenous so far, but there are no more excuses.
Fabrials. Fabrials everywhere. Preferably also Surges Fabriais.

That was more of a wish list than a prediction, but there it is.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Raphaborn

[joesleepsalot he/him]

i definitely don’t think Kaladin will die. He’s “the” son of Tanavast (per the storm father). I used to think he’d die but the more I dig into the WOB archive the more I’m convinced Kaladin lives. Also, Adolin will definitely become a radiant... I think Brandon made an accidental slip here, if you carefully compare these.... apologies if someone’s already pointed this out (pic):

[Use the Falchion]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Ok, why is everyone just calling ships?

There is more to the book than that.

Because we got de-railed. But we're re-railed now! And there is so much more to the books than ships, absolutely! But that doesn't mean that we can't also ship characters either. If it hasn't happened, we can count it as a prediction. 

 

On 5/2/2020 at 5:10 AM, Harbour said:

She is clearly a kid herself, as i saw her in OB, and its kinda ineffective to push her towards such a high bar as caring for a child without resolving her own issues first.

Very solid point! Unfortunately, that's not always how life turns out. Many parents don't solve their own problems before having children. Some even bring children into their lives, thinking said children will solve whatever issues they currently have. 

It would be interesting if Shallan gains a surrogate mother relationship with Navani through becoming a young mother - Shallan lost her mother at a young age and her relationship with her step-mother wasn't...as strong as it potentially could have been (no fault to either of them, but just a note). Shallan about to become a mother could allow her to confront own mother issues (and lead to some flashbacks to Shallan as a child becoming a Radiant). But that feels like a Book 5 prediction rather than a Book 4 one...although if this is "Navani's" book, then it might work here too...there could be a contrast Eshonai and Venli's relationship with their mother with Navani and Shallan's budding mother-mentor/child relationship...hmm...

...but you did spark a different theory that I'll have to ponder on...hmm...

9 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

i definitely don’t think Kaladin will die. He’s “the” son of Tanavast (per the storm father). I used to think he’d die but the more I dig into the WOB archive the more I’m convinced Kaladin lives. Also, Adolin will definitely become a radiant... I think Brandon made an accidental slip here, if you carefully compare these.... apologies if someone’s already pointed this out (pic):

There's also the fact that at the end of WoR, Sanderson noted that "something in Adolin finally snapped." To me, that always screamed Snapping like in Mistborn. Like a crack in a spiritual web formed, and now Adolin's starting to fill it. 

[Chiberty]

9 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

i definitely don’t think Kaladin will die. He’s “the” son of Tanavast (per the storm father). I used to think he’d die but the more I dig into the WOB archive the more I’m convinced Kaladin lives. Also, Adolin will definitely become a radiant... I think Brandon made an accidental slip here, if you carefully compare these.... apologies if someone’s already pointed this out (pic):

I think that he is talking about Lopen in the first one. It depends on if the second ideal for a Windrunner squire would be considered just "well on the way" to being a radiant. Since Teft still seemed to just be a squire until he swore the third Ideal, that seems very likely.

[Harbour he/him]

4 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Very solid point! Unfortunately, that's not always how life turns out. Many parents don't solve their own problems before having children. Some even bring children into their lives, thinking said children will solve whatever issues they currently have. 

I absolutely agree.

I meant that from purely narrative standpoint it would be kinda problematic to execute it properly. If Brandon would decide to do it and pull it off realistically and satisfying, then i would be fine with young Shallan-mother.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Harbour