Long Game 52: Treachery in the South

[Furamirionind]

42 minutes ago, Droughtbringer said:

This doesn't feel like a great idea to me, if the Eliminators get a feel for where Medallions are, they could specifically target Medallions that they want to destroy and get them out of the Village hands.

Sure, though that is the same in a normal role call. You expect some of the more powerful roles to either claim roleless or a weaker, easy to imitate role.

The only difference is here, the role call has much less lasting damage, as our roles are constantly changing, with the additional benefit of possibly learning some of the roles the elims chose, and who they got sent to.

This could scare the elims into claiming roleless, however, as the medallions are getting passed around, we should be able to get a sense of how many there are, and if we know there are more medallions than players who claimed to have them, then that makes the roleless sound suspicious as either an elim (lasting role), or a powerful role (not lasting).

We are looking for elims, and they are looking for the powerful roles. Therefore, we get the better deal, as the information we gain stays useful through the whole game, unlike theirs.

Sorry, I think I start to ramble a bit in there, but I am in a hurry, so this isn't super thought out.

[Droughtbringer]

1 minute ago, Furamirionind said:

Sure, though that is the same in a normal role call. You expect some of the more powerful roles to either claim roleless or a weaker, easy to imitate role.

The only difference is here, the role call has much less lasting damage, as our roles are constantly changing, with the additional benefit of possibly learning some of the roles the elims chose, and who they got sent to.

This could scare the elims into claiming roleless, however, as the medallions are getting passed around, we should be able to get a sense of how many there are, and if we know there are more medallions than players who claimed to have them, then that makes the roleless sound suspicious as either an elim (lasting role), or a powerful role (not lasting).

We are looking for elims, and they are looking for the powerful roles. Therefore, we get the better deal, as the information we gain stays useful through the whole game, unlike theirs.

Sorry, I think I start to ramble a bit in there, but I am in a hurry, so this isn't super thought out.

No, you're fine.

I would l like to add a stipulation, though. If we decide to do a role reveal, then we should not claim Pewter. If we have people claim Pewter, then the Elims know who not to target if they want to guarantee a kill goes off. 

[FatherTiempo]

I think we should wait till three to four deaths till we reveal any more information than is necessary.

[Furamirionind]

2 minutes ago, FatherTiempo said:

I think we should wait till three to four deaths till we reveal any more information than is necessary.

I disagree. This is the cycle we will learn the most. I agree pewter probably shouldn't claim. But another thing to note is that any medallions the elims destroy, they are not able to use either. Granted they have a less likely chance of receiving said medallions, but if there is one they think might be too useful to them late game, they would avoid killing that player.

The elims already know al the medallions in the game. 1 of each type, plus the ones they sent out. They also have ~4 players, which gives them 4x more information about which players have which medallions. I think it is important to know early on if they even distributed any medallions, as the fewer medallions, the less likely it is the village will get one C1.

This can also give us early insight into how the elims think, which could be quite revealing depending on the player.

[CadCom]

Steel: You can prevent someone from receiving any medallions next day. (Night)  I think steel would be more useful to elims, who have a better idea of who is who, and who is getting closer to discovering them.

Iron: You may ironpull to have a guarantee of at least one medallion next day. In the situation where this is impossible to do, some people will not receive one. In a conflict between Steel and Iron, one of the two will win at random. (Night) Iron seems to be useful to anyone equally, as I believe that most people would have it in their best interest to try to get more medallions.

Pewter: You gain one extra life from kills, including lynches. After taking affect one time, this no longer can be used regardless of new medallions. This medallion is destroyed after it’s used. In addition, any extra pewter medallions owned by the same person will be destroyed along with it. (Passive) Since I believe I elims are the ones that chose where to place the medallions, I suspect that they chose at least a couple of their own team members to have this medallion. But I also believe that the elims would have thought of this, and given at least a couple other people Peter as well, to stop them from being the only ones. Either way, I suspect that most people who end up with an extra life are elims. 

Tin: You know all players who have a specific type of medallion. If done at night, this will inform you after medallions pass. (Day or Night) I think that the Elims wouldn't want this one to be passed out to non elims. But one person should have gotten this randomly. I reccommend doing it on steel or Pewter, try to catch some people who are trying for extra lives

Zinc: You may change one person who has not voted to voting on a player of your choice. (Day)  I could picture elims handing this out to everyone fairly equally

Brass: You may disable one player’s vote for one cycle. (Day) Same with this one. 

Copper: You are immune to bronze, zinc, and brass. (Passive) Same with this one

Bronze: You may find out the medallions one player uses that turn, including passive medallions. (Day or Night) This is a scan item again. Elims won't want to give out too many scan items D1, when they are trying to help themselves out. This Elims probably put few of these in place, or have them all with themselves. 

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I got bored of analyses of medallions so I will leave those there for now. Perhaps I'll come back later and do more. 

1 hour ago, FatherTiempo said:

I see a few people referencing Allomantic metals with notation like F1 or D1. What does that mean?

I'm not sure about F1, but when I used D1, I was referring to Day 1. D1, C1, or N1 will usually refer to day, cycle, or night 1. 

53 minutes ago, Droughtbringer said:

This doesn't feel like a great idea to me, if the Eliminators get a feel for where Medallions are, they could specifically target Medallions that they want to destroy and get them out of the Village hands.

Didn't the Elims place the medallions? So they would already know where quite a few of them are. There are some that are  placed randomly as well, so there are some that the Elims don't know about. 

So I think for the most part, medallion calling isn't a bad idea, as long as you stay quiet about powerful medallions. I don't think my medallions are very threatening to the Elims, so I feel decently safe sharing what i have. 

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

23 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

I think it is important to know early on if they even distributed any medallions, as the fewer medallions, the less likely it is the village will get one C1.

We've had a couple players claim two medallions, so it's likely that the elims did indeed hand some out to start.

22 minutes ago, Cadmium Compounder said:

Since I believe I elims are the ones that chose where to place the medallions, I suspect that they chose at least a couple of their own team members to have this medallion.

Having read the rules a couple of times, I'm still not sure how the Southern Scadrian ability to pass out medallions works. Do they merely submit a list of players, who then receive medallions at random? Or do they get to specify which medallions each player receives? The latter seems significantly more powerful, but also makes claiming medallion roles more reasonable.

[Furamirionind]

17 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

We've had a couple players claim two medallions

Who has claimed medallions? I haven't seen it...

17 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

I'm still not sure how the Southern Scadrian ability to pass out medallions works. Do they merely submit a list of players, who then receive medallions at random? Or do they get to specify which medallions each player receives? The latter seems significantly more powerful, but also makes claiming medallion roles more reasonable.

Quote

During Cycle 0 they will submit a list of players to receive medallions. This may be as many people as they want, but there is a maximum of 5 of each type of medallion

Due to the last part saying that they choose what type of medallion, I inferred this to mean that this meant they got to choose who received the medallions. Though I suppose you are correct in that it doesn't truly say.

@Kidpen Do the elims get to choose who receives the medallions they send?

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

@Furamirionind, both CadCom and FatherTiempo have claimed to have two medallions. I asked whether the elims get to choose which medallions players get because CadCom speculated that the elims would give their own members pewter medallions, and generally assumed that the elims had some say as to who ended up with particular types of medallion.

[Eternum]

I think it's fairly clear that the elims choose who to send medallions to. They submit a list of players to the GM. There isn't much left to the imagination.

7 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

@Furamirionind, both CadCom and FatherTiempo have claimed to have two medallions. I asked whether the elims get to choose which medallions players get because CadCom speculated that the elims would give their own members pewter medallions, and generally assumed that the elims had some say as to who ended up with particular types of medallion.

I.. don't think the elims would give themselves Pewter medallions. I see it as sort of a gambit, one that is decidedly not worth it (in my opinion). If they did, they'd lose them after this cycle, giving them protection they will most likely not even need, and then the medallions would become a double-edged sword, as they'd raise the risks of the elims hitting someone with a medallion.

I also have a medallion, by the way.

[Snipexe]

It's also stated in the rules that one of every metalmind will be randomly distributed to players, which balances the elim's power slightly.

[CadCom]

3 minutes ago, Eternum said:

I think it's fairly clear that the elims choose who to send medallions to. They submit a list of players to the GM. There isn't much left to the imagination.

I.. don't think the elims would give themselves Pewter medallions. I see it as sort of a gambit, one that is decidedly not worth it (in my opinion). If they did, they'd lose them after this cycle, giving them protection they will most likely not even need, and then the medallions would become a double-edged sword, as they'd raise the risks of the elims hitting someone with a medallion.

I also have a medallion, by the way.

Pewter medallions are destroyed after they are used, and they are passive, so they would automatically use it C1, and then no one else would be able to use it. 

[Eternum]

Just now, Cadmium Compounder said:

Pewter medallions are destroyed after they are used, and they are passive, so they would automatically use it C1, and then no one else would be able to use it. 

Them being passive means they'll activate when the holder is attacked (or I read it as such, at least). I might be wrong, but this is generally how I remember passive items/abilities working.

[CadCom]

Hmm. I read it as meaning that it works immediately and passively, but you do bring up a good point. @Kidpen, could we get some clarification. Does Pewter take effect only once attacked? or does it take effect from the beginning of the game? 

[Elandera]

30 minutes ago, Cadmium Compounder said:

Hmm. I read it as meaning that it works immediately and passively, but you do bring up a good point. @Kidpen, could we get some clarification. Does Pewter take effect only once attacked? or does it take effect from the beginning of the game? 

I'm not Kidpen, but I'll add my two cents here. Every passive/pewter mechanic I've seen only takes effect once the person is attacked and/or lynched (some kind of action that would end in their death). There'd be no point to having a passing mechanic for pewter if it only lasted C1.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

41 minutes ago, Eternum said:

I think it's fairly clear that the elims choose who to send medallions to. They submit a list of players to the GM. There isn't much left to the imagination.

The question is whether the elims can say 'We want CadCom to have a medallion', in which case he would receive a random medallion, or 'We want CadCom to have a nicrosil medallion', which would guarantee that Cadcom got a nicrosil medallion.

I'm fairly sure that pewter medallions work as Eternum describes, as opposed to a permanent extra life and the immediate destruction of all pewter medallions.

[Furamirionind]

The extra life isnt permanent... It is passed to a "random" player each cycle.

I didn't see they claimed 2 medallions as I was skipping RP as I was at work... I suppose I cant do that this game...

I have 1 iron medallion.

[Elandera]

1 hour ago, Furamirionind said:

Due to the last part saying that they choose what type of medallion, I inferred this to mean that this meant they got to choose who received the medallions. Though I suppose you are correct in that it doesn't truly say.

I got the same impression at the last line of "only five of each type of medallion." To me, that would imply they get to choose how many of which types get distributed as well as to whom those medallions are given.

[Kidpen]

When the elims choose medallions, they can choose which players get which medallions, with no restrictions beyond not being able to create more than 5 of each.

Pewter is activated only when someone holding it is attacked or lynched.

[Elandera]

23 minutes ago, Kidpen said:

When the elims choose medallions, they can choose which players get which medallions, with no restrictions beyond not being able to create more than 5 of each.

In that case, sharing which medallions we have isn't terrible. However, I'd still caution against sharing some of the more powerful ones (like pewter), just in case that is one of the random ones assigned, rather than distributed ones.

I have an aluminium medallion.

[FatherTiempo]

 What if everyone who has two medals tells everyone one of their medals ( just not the pewter ones) that way we could get a feel for the playing field. Or should we wait a few lunches for that.

Also did some people get two of the same medals?I

 

 

[Fifth Scholar]

Hello, everyone. I’ve had a busier day but I’ll read the thread in greater depth tonight, hopefully, and make a post responding to some of the discussion. Just wanted to let people know I hadn’t dropped off the face of the earth   

[Steeldancer]

Oh joy of joys. I got aluminum, and copper. How exciting. 
Anyway, I'm not going to say much until the back half of the cycle for various reasons you may be aware of (ahem mission call). But even if I'm not going to say anything more, we do need to start figuring out a lynch, because otherwise someone will be lynched entirely at random, and honestly what fun is that? (Unless you're Alvron)

[+Ark1002]

I've got no thoughts on the game so far.

I've got an aluminummind, that's it.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Ark1002

[Fifth Scholar]

3 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Oh joy of joys. I got aluminum, and copper. How exciting. 
Anyway, I'm not going to say much until the back half of the cycle for various reasons you may be aware of (ahem mission call). But even if I'm not going to say anything more, we do need to start figuring out a lynch, because otherwise someone will be lynched entirely at random, and honestly what fun is that? (Unless you're Alvron)

First of all, good luck with your mission.  I completely agree on the need to begin lynch discussion, and I hope we start getting more votes soon. 

33 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

I've got no thoughts on the game so far.

I've got an aluminummind, that's it.

While I respect your right to remain silent on this, I find it slightly odd that you have no thoughts on a full page and a half of thread that’s been put out over the last 24 hours. 

More importantly, however, both Steel and Ark claimed an aluminummind. This means that unless one of them is lying (which should be enough to warrant suspicion regardless), the Elims gave one of them the metalmind. @Steeldancer @Ark1002 Either of you care to explain yourselves on this matter? Particularly Steel, who claimed two metalminds.

19 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

@xinoehp512

Yes, I do. My team is 3574. How are you familiar with FIRST? Are/were you on a team?

EDIT: Anyone want to do a role/medallion call? This would be the cycle to do that.

This post seems to have sparked most of the discussion this cycle, and while others have responded to it, I’ll do so briefly myself. First, I’m not sure what you believe roleclaiming will give us. The Eliminators have no incentive to be honest about which metalminds they have—I doubt they created any Bronze so that the village could find out, regardless, and claiming will only serve to expose potentially powerful metalminds, or else force their holders to lie, further muddying the waters surrounding the entire ordeal. Second, why this cycle? It would be much more effective next cycle after metalminds have rotated out of mostly Eliminator hands, as we’d get a much more honest portrait of which metalminds are out there. As for now this seems like a tactic designed to get the village to expose where powerful metalminds were initially distributed, Furamirionind. (I acknowledge this is a weak case, and I’d love to hear your response, but we need to get lynch discussion going.)

10 hours ago, Roadwalker said:

This is worrying. We should be on our guards for a possible elim hammer, which seems likely if we don't have a solid lynch, or an agreed no-lynch.

Roadwalker is correct that we need a lynch, though I wouldn’t fear a hammer this early when enough villagers are active to punish any Eliminator team foolhardy enough to try such a tactic. 

9 hours ago, Droughtbringer said:

The two rules I have seen are the 1/5th rule (or the 20% you stated) or the Square root rule. 

We have 18 players, which is 3.6 for the 1/5th rule, or 4.242 for the Square Root rule, so I'd place my guess at Four elims.

 

This doesn't feel like a great idea to me, if the Eliminators get a feel for where Medallions are, they could specifically target Medallions that they want to destroy and get them out of the Village hands.

Drought here echoes my main concern with metalmind claiming, earning him a Very Slight Village Read. 

9 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Sure, though that is the same in a normal role call. You expect some of the more powerful roles to either claim roleless or a weaker, easy to imitate role.

The only difference is here, the role call has much less lasting damage, as our roles are constantly changing, with the additional benefit of possibly learning some of the roles the elims chose, and who they got sent to.

This could scare the elims into claiming roleless, however, as the medallions are getting passed around, we should be able to get a sense of how many there are, and if we know there are more medallions than players who claimed to have them, then that makes the roleless sound suspicious as either an elim (lasting role), or a powerful role (not lasting).

We are looking for elims, and they are looking for the powerful roles. Therefore, we get the better deal, as the information we gain stays useful through the whole game, unlike theirs.

Sorry, I think I start to ramble a bit in there, but I am in a hurry, so this isn't super thought out.

Hmm. I can see a less nefarious intent here, though I’d point out that the Elims would get a lot more information out of those claiming Roleless than the village, as the village would have to muddle through the list, while the Elims would instantly know where the more powerful medallions are. While information quality does improve slightly throughout the game, I am still hesitant to give up my ability to a team that could potentially eliminate me for it. Role-claiming seems to simply force villagers into lies in this situation, and get them roleblocked or killed. 

@Elandera, my apologies that I haven’t replied to your RP, but I’m simply low on time and energy right now. Hopefully Aliat will reply later.

[Lumgol]

Aw. There's no real lynch train yet. Well that's boring  

Also, I have one medallion. I won't share what it is yet.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Lumgol