Lightblood Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 Okay so when I was re-reading Oathbringer again I paused when I read Chapter 88 voices. In this chapter it's a flashback where dalinar is talking about how he needs to drink (the first chapter we see dalinar turns to spirits) and he eventually goes out to find a beggar named Ahu. Ahu is drinking and talking about the voices and how they are made. He seems to know a lot about how the spiritual aspect of the screams that dalinar (and szeth) hear. Then he mentions 4 of the unmade and says "Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking thourgh walls." Why the heck does this random beggar know so much. And why can he track and even hear where Moelach (the thrill) is? Is it just another mad man whose mind is more open to the cognitive realm as we see in MSH. Or is Ahu some kind of herald that was pausing in Kholinar. And if so which one. I'd love to hear you thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathrangking Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 (edited) Ahu is confirmed to be Jezrien who is doing more than just pausing in kholinar. Edited January 29, 2019 by Nathrangking 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 He was also on screen in the beginning of Way of Kings. ’Have you seen me?’ And then the old man began babbling in gibberish. or something to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 Ahu is Jezrien, which is why Moash shanks him at the end of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
equinox Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 I'm so happy that there are others who miss such things. Sometimes I feel all the other Sharders but me finds all those Heralds, Worldhoppers, hidden clues, or invested objects, are able to translate coded and foreign languages, and understand Realmatic Theory like expert scientists. Nice to see that's not the case . Jezrien is according to Brandon really dead. His soul is somehow trapped in the gemstone. Do you think he still might be saved? At least his soul freed? Oh. damnation you Moash again and again! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 4 hours ago, equinox said: Jezrien is according to Brandon really dead. His soul is somehow trapped in the gemstone. Do you think he still might be saved? At least his soul freed? Oh. damnation you Moash again and again! I don’t think that Brandon ever confirmed that Jezrien’s soul was trapped, just that Jezrien is now permanently dead. I personally think that, if that blade captured anything, it was just the Investiture keeping Jezrien alive as a Cognitive Shadow. The being that was Jezrien is now good and dead, for real. He’s definitely passed on to the Beyond, so there’s no hope for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
equinox Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Moash killed a god? One of the Heralds? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] He did. One of the Heralds. And trapped his soul so he couldn't be reborn. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] That's what it is. Trapped his soul, didn't actually kill him? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] It's killed him...It was like, extra killed. The Heralds are bound to a cycle of rebirth that happens...that they wanted to make sure didn't happen that time. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018) I read this as Jezrien's soul is trapped in the gemstone. 15 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said: He’s definitely passed on to the Beyond, so there’s no hope for him. Actually, this is my hope for him. I'm not a religious person and I don't believe in an afterlife - in heaven or elsewhere. Oddly, I hope the Beyond is some kind of afterlife where Vin and Elend, Elhokar and Eshonai, and many others live on in some happy state. I wish for Jezrien to go to this beyond after his burdensome life. I am, however, not sure if this is possible due to his peculiar death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 14 minutes ago, equinox said: I read this as Jezrien's soul is trapped in the gemstone. Actually, this is my hope for him. I'm not a religious person and I don't believe in an afterlife - in heaven or elsewhere. Oddly, I hope the Beyond is some kind of afterlife where Vin and Elend, Elhokar and Eshonai, and many others live on in some happy state. I wish for Jezrien to go to this beyond after his burdensome life. I am, however, not sure if this is possible due to his peculiar death. I mean, that second part of the WoB is more revealing to me. In order for Jezrien to be “extra killed,” he would need to be stripped of the Investiture sustaining him as a Cognitive Shadow, which would make it so that he would not be able to resist the pull of the Beyond once he’s in the Cognitive Realm. And if Odium and the Fused really wanted to get rid of him, I doubt they’d keep his soul around in that knife. The odds of someone being able to figure out how to bring him back are slim, but Odium seems like the type to not take chances, especially after the Void team’s failure at Thaylen City. As for the Beyond, I personally think there really isn’t anything after you get sucked into it, but that’s the amazing thing about the Cosmere. We can all have our own interpretation of stuff like the Beyond and all be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
equinox Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 I agree that Jezrien is dead dead. And now I take your explanation so that it allows me to think Jezrien went Beyond. Also, I am very happy that Brandon Sanderson is never going to reveal any information on what's beyond. Still, I'm a bit sad they killed Ahu. And I'm looking forward to learning how the other Heralds will react to this new threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 3 hours ago, equinox said: And I'm looking forward to learning how the other Heralds will react to this new threat. Well, Ash flipped out and fainted and considering that all of them can feel the exact same thing, they're all very aware that someone just found out how to truly kill them. I suspect most of them are going to be very worried now. Kalak's might be the worse since his Herald insanity seems to be hypochondria or paranoia and neither of those are going to react well to the news, especially the latter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasper Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 The stuff taken by the knife is likely similar to the power Preservation poured into Kelsier in Secret History. It keeps the soul bound to the cognitive realm and allows Heralds/insane mistborn stick around get passed out drunk for 4000 years. I think the only difference is the Heralds can jump into the Physical Realm easier than the Survivor of Hathsin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 @Gasper Can you put that post into a spoiler please? I don’t want anyone who hasn’t read that book to get spoiled. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/29/2019 at 9:00 AM, StrikerEZ said: I mean, that second part of the WoB is more revealing to me. In order for Jezrien to be “extra killed,” he would need to be stripped of the Investiture sustaining him as a Cognitive Shadow, which would make it so that he would not be able to resist the pull of the Beyond once he’s in the Cognitive Realm. And if Odium and the Fused really wanted to get rid of him, I doubt they’d keep his soul around in that knife. The odds of someone being able to figure out how to bring him back are slim, but Odium seems like the type to not take chances, especially after the Void team’s failure at Thaylen City. As for the Beyond, I personally think there really isn’t anything after you get sucked into it, but that’s the amazing thing about the Cosmere. We can all have our own interpretation of stuff like the Beyond and all be right. A cognitive shadow is investiture and the WoB does state Jezeren's soul, so it could be deduced that the cognitive shadow was in fact sucked into the blade to prevent rebirth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) Except that we know spren can be freed from gemstones and if the knife trapped Jezrien's entire Cognitive aspect, the possibility exists for that gem to be broken and then he'd be free. The WoB states quite clearly that he's 'extra dead' which makes much more sense if you assume that the knife only stole the bit of Investiture that was binding him to the Oathpact and keeping him from passing Beyond. No possibility of returning again that way because once he went Beyond nothing could bring him back and it would do exactly what Odium wants with less work. Brandon has also been rather loose with the use of the word 'soul' at times and I think more weight should be given to the 'extra dead' part of that WoB than the 'soul' part.. Edited January 30, 2019 by Weltall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Weltall said: Except that we know spren can be freed from gemstones and if the knife trapped Jezrien's entire Cognitive aspect, the possibility exists for that gem to be broken and then he'd be free. The WoB states quite clearly that he's 'extra dead' which makes much more sense if you assume that the knife only stole the bit of Investiture that was binding him to the Oathpact and keeping him from passing Beyond. No possibility of returning again that way and it would do exactly what Odium wants with less work. Brandon has also been rather loose with the use of the word 'soul' at times and I think more weight should be given to the 'extra dead' part of that WoB than the 'soul' part.. You are predicating your statement on the assumption that the blade absorbing investiture acts exactly like Dalinar using a gemstone to capture an unmade. Brandon has commented on how the knife could be seen as hemalurgy in a manner. If you spiked out something from a person, could you just give it back? Now I know your response will be "see! you said spike something! not the whole person!" but we do not know the full limits of hemalurgy. We do not know its effect on a cognitive shadow. We do not know.... Spoiler That in Kelsier's case how exactly he is stapled to his body. We also do not know that if you were then to spike him out of that body, that he would remain intact. To clarify I am not saying to remove the spike that is attaching him to the body. I mean taking a completely separate spike and use that to remove him. Basically I am saying we do not know enough to say it cannot work that way. Hope that helps clarify it. Edited January 30, 2019 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) @Pathfinder That character’s status as a Cognitive Shadow and the Heralds’ status as Cognitive Shadows are two very different situations. I don’t think that we can accurately compare them, simply because they’re both called Cognitive Shadows. The only thing that’s been sustaining the Heralds this long has been the Investiture that’s become apart of them thanks to the Oathpact. The only way to make them “extra dead,” as that WoB says, would be to remove that. If they were just “dead,” then I could see a scenario where that knife took the entirety of Jezrien’s soul. However, as the situation stands now, I think that the knife simply stole that which made him a Herald, and the man known as Jezrien has now passed to the Beyond since he was no longer a Cognitive Shadow. Though, he might’ve been Invested enough because he was a Herald to stick around in the Cognitive Realm as a Sliver...that would be an interesting scenario. Edited January 30, 2019 by StrikerEZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 27 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said: @Pathfinder That character’s status as a Cognitive Shadow and the Heralds’ status as Cognitive Shadows are two very different situations. I don’t think that we can accurately compare them, simply because they’re both called Cognitive Shadows. The only thing that’s been sustaining the Heralds this long has been the Investiture that’s become apart of them thanks to the Oathpact. The only way to make them “extra dead,” as that WoB says, would be to remove that. If they were just “dead,” then I could see a scenario where that knife took the entirety of Jezrien’s soul. However, as the situation stands now, I think that the knife simply stole that which made him a Herald, and the man known as Jezrien has now passed to the Beyond since he was no longer a Cognitive Shadow. Though, he might’ve been Invested enough because he was a Herald to stick around in the Cognitive Realm as a Sliver...that would be an interesting scenario. Could you provide a WoB that confirms "the only thing that's been sustaining the heralds this long has been the investiture that's become apart of them thanks to the oathpact" I only ask for clarity because from what I understand it could have just have been as easily the heralds swore the oathpact, and in order to help them uphold it, honor then suffused them with investiture to make them cognitive shadows. So correlation but not causation. If there is a WoB, then I readily admit I was out of the loop on that and defer to additional information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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