2Shanez Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 Preemptive first post woohoo!! So given what we know about co-opted/corrupted investiture why the eff weren't bleeder's eyes red??? This is bugging me the more I think about it. Bleeder is a kandra, compromised of ruin and preservativations investiture. Then she's using a foreign metal spike that both gives her her sentience and an allomantic or feruchemical power. Given everything we know so far about corrupted investiture shouldn't her eyes be red because of this? If not then why? There's always another secret! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Welcome to the Shard! Paalm was being influenced by 'Trell' but not directly controlled. Also, the kandra (like everything else on Scadrial) are literally made of Preservation and Ruin so they're probably much harder to co-opt in the way that we see happen with the Listeners and a single hemalurgic spike isn't enough to do it. The 'faceless immortal' we see at the end of Bands of Mourning is being directly controlled by some entity related to Trell (with the implication that whatever it is, they're possessing a native Scadrian and using their body like a puppet) and they do have the red eyes. Basically, it seems to be a matter of degree. Edited January 16, 2019 by Weltall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 Pretty much what Weltall said, in addition to the fact that she could probably have contained any redness that may have cropped up with that wonderful kandra body-manipulation. Also welcome to the Shard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Shanez Posted January 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 Thanks all! Super long time lurker. I can definitely get down with the idea that its a sliding scale that would induce that redness at a certain point. Seems sort of similar to snapping. So on the left we have bleeder her one spike that allows her the autonomy to bypass Harmony. Two spikes brings her back under Harmony's control. I wonder if that red faceless immortal has two trellium spikes. In the middle of this scale would perhaps be Glys, given its always red, but we have no evidence of him being directly controlled. Perhaps all the way to the right of this scale would be the Fused. Just thinking out loud here. I think there is something at the bottom of all this that isn't totally understood. Or I'm overthinking things again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace21 Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 I imagine it was due to not being posessed. After all, feeling the Thrill doesn't give you red eyes, it seems to require full possession. I think anything that consists of the investiture of two or more shards will be red unless the Shards agreed to work together ala Scadrial. So possessed Alethi? Red eyes. Fused-possessed Singers? Red eyes. Glys? Red crystal. Everyone/everything on Scadrial? Not red unless it would be anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Shanez Posted January 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 I want to feel like there is something more to the cause of the redness, as it doesn't seem quite consistent. Of course that doesn't mean there is Glys doesn't seem to be actively possessed by whatsherface, though he could be. Perhaps the difference is due to Glys only being investiture? The shades of threnody don't quite line up with this either. What would be possessing them when they sense blood? Couldn't be Ambition. Still spit balling with no good answers. Feels like there is a piece missing from this puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 Probably she just used some eye-drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Shanez Posted January 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 Hey if Hrathen can get a potion to look like a scrubby elantrian then I won't discount it. Maybe if the eyedrops use a certain well's "water" then that would actually be feasible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) On 1/16/2019 at 1:40 PM, 2Shanez said: Hey if Hrathen can get a potion to look like a scrubby elantrian then I won't discount it. Maybe if the eyedrops use a certain well's "water" then that would actually be feasible! Not really related, but the potion Hrathen drank was invested. So yeah, your Invested eyedrops aren't so unfeasible. Quote Francis Ocoma In Elantris, are Forton's "potions" magical, or is he using natural substances? Brandon Sanderson They are invested. (Magical.) General Twitter 2016 (Jan. 17, 2016) Edited January 31, 2019 by The Sovereign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 I wonder how you Invest a potion using Selish-type magic. I'm thinking you'd have to get the liquid to continuously undergo ChayShan-like motions or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Shanez Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 All the magics we've seen on Sel so far seems so different from each other. With the dakhor monks on side Dominion side, and the elantrians leading towards Devotion. I'd put ChayShan somewhere in the middle. All seems pretty similar to how the metallic arts relate to Ruin and Preservation. Not sure where the potions would fit in, really curious how they are made now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 3:16 PM, Ripheus23 said: I wonder how you Invest a potion using Selish-type magic. I'm thinking you'd have to get the liquid to continuously undergo ChayShan-like motions or something... 29 minutes ago, 2Shanez said: Not sure where the potions would fit in, really curious how they are made now. The plants are probably Invested, and when mixed in certain ways forms the gateway to channel the Dor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Shanez Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 That would be really cool. Especially given how Sel itself might be gaining its own sentience. It could totally manifest physically like the tears of Edgli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Shanez Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 I wonder if hoid utilized any potions before, or in his attempt to become elantrian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 1 hour ago, 2Shanez said: I wonder if hoid utilized any potions before, or in his attempt to become elantrian. Probably has. I get the feeling he'd probably try it just because that's what he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Shanez Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Very true. Besides hemalurgy of course. Wonder if those potions could give him the connection needed to use the Dor. Wouldn't explain his bandages though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Since the Ire had a way to give themselves sufficient Connection to Preservation to take up that Shard, we know that Selish magic can do things like that. Rather than faking Connection to that Shard, it would have to fake Connection to the geographic area associated with AonDor. We know this sort of thing is theoretically possible with Forgery but it would require more power than she can manage on her own to go from 'Forging to look like an Elantrian' to actually being an Elantrian. The same would probably be true of the potions, so you'd need something more to provide the push needed to fake the Connection and make it stick well enough to actually become Elantrian, rather than just look like one as Hrathen did. ...I just realized, I've been assuming that Hrathen ordered up a potion that used chemistry to fake the physical appearance of post-reod Elantrians but it's entirely possible that what actually happened is that the potion faked Connection similar to the hypothetical example Brandon gave with Shai. As for the Ire's orb succeeding at such crazy Connection hacking, being Elantrian they've got direct access to the Dor so however that thing worked, they could probably brute-force the power requirements. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 On 1/20/2019 at 3:19 PM, Weltall said: ...I just realized, I've been assuming that Hrathen ordered up a potion that used chemistry to fake the physical appearance of post-reod Elantrians but it's entirely possible that what actually happened is that the potion faked Connection similar to the hypothetical example Brandon gave with Shai. I've actually been thinking about this for a couple of days now since origonally reading your post and last night I went back and re-read the scenes where Hrathen and then Sarene are in Elantris. Hrathen doesn't remark any injuries whether it be bruising, scrapes, etc. after his "fight" which he certainly would have sustained even in such a one sided fight. If you've ever punched someone in the face (which Hrathen does to one of the Elantrians that attacks him) then you know you almost certainly would bruise your knuckles if not worse. We also see him become delirious with dehydration something we do not see from the other Elantrians. We then see with Sarene that while she has normal hunger and such but she doesn't have the ravenous hunger of other Elantrians. Also we see her hair growing. If the potion had faked Connection enough to actually to actually mimic the Shaod transformation then it stands to reason they would had that same complications of the Shaod as the true Elantrians. I think it is far more likely that Forton's concoction magically-chemically mimics the appearance of post-Reod Elantrians as you had origonally assumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 9 hours ago, The Sovereign said: I've actually been thinking about this for a couple of days now since origonally reading your post and last night I went back and re-read the scenes where Hrathen and then Sarene are in Elantris. Hrathen doesn't remark any injuries whether it be bruising, scrapes, etc. after his "fight" which he certainly would have sustained even in such a one sided fight. If you've ever punched someone in the face (which Hrathen does to one of the Elantrians that attacks him) then you know you almost certainly would bruise your knuckles if not worse. We also see him become delirious with dehydration something we do not see from the other Elantrians. We then see with Sarene that while she has normal hunger and such but she doesn't have the ravenous hunger of other Elantrians. Also we see her hair growing. If the potion had faked Connection enough to actually to actually mimic the Shaod transformation then it stands to reason they would had that same complications of the Shaod as the true Elantrians. I think it is far more likely that Forton's concoction magically-chemically mimics the appearance of post-Reod Elantrians as you had origonally assumed. I think @Weltall meant that the potion mimicked Connection enough to make the person who drinks it look like an Elantrain, but not actually become an Elantrain, like in the hypothetical scenario in the WoB above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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