Is there a point to Sebarial?

[TousenShadowForged he/him]

seb and pal remind me of the two drunks couple  in the malazan series who turn out to be lesser gods 

[Winds Alight she/her]

1 hour ago, TousenShadowForged said:

seb and pal remind me of the two drunks couple  in the malazan series who turn out to be lesser gods 

The question is now, who of them is which Herald?

[Govir]

5 hours ago, TousenShadowForged said:

seb and pal remind me of the two drunks couple  in the malazan series who turn out to be lesser gods 

And here I thought you were talking about the toast of the upper crust and headliners on the society pages: Frank and Sadie Doyle.

[Mailnaise she/her]

13 hours ago, Gasper said:

The thing is, I know people like Lopen, who have a very similar personality. Not to rain on your parade or anything, but from my experience, Lopen's comedy shtick is an actual thing.

But if you've read Brandon's books, you also know anything is possible... Warbreaker, anyone? 

Lopen actually just being comedy is still proof that Palona and Sebarial could be anything. 

[Scion of the Mists]

On 12/16/2018 at 8:29 PM, ND103 said:

I think the whole point of the saga is to explore the fact that humankind's side isn't really the side of the good guys. Neither is the other side. There is no good side or bad side. There's the side against Odium, and the side for Odium..

I'm really not sure how you don't think that the "for Odium" side is the bad side.  Odium is literally Hatred personified, who's goal is killing.  

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

28 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I'm really not sure how you don't think that the "for Odium" side is the bad side.  Odium is literally Hatred personified, who's goal is killing.  

I think he/she means that the Singers on Odiums side aren’t really bad people, and are very justified in fighting humanity. That means that Odiums side isn’t completely bad, even though Odium himself is.

Meanwhile, Team Dalinar have Jasnah, who is willing to pull off a genocide to save humanity from its former slaves, Hoid who is willing to let Roshar burn to get what he wants, a whole bunch of racists and slavers, and Szeth. You have a whole bunch of moral issues to unpack there as well. 

[Gasper he/him]

6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think he/she means that the Singers on Odiums side aren’t really bad people, and are very justified in fighting humanity. That means that Odiums side isn’t completely bad, even though Odium himself is.

Meanwhile, Team Dalinar have Jasnah, who is willing to pull off a genocide to save humanity from its former slaves, Hoid who is willing to let Roshar burn to get what he wants, a whole bunch of racists and slavers, and Szeth. You have a whole bunch of moral issues to unpack there as well. 

I concur, most of the people on both sides are not bad, they are just following orders and hoping to survive TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It). That is why Kaladin is having such a hard time fighting, he sees that most of the people fighting are not evil. There are genuinely good and evil people on Roshar. Dalinar is currently a good person as are Bridge Four. The Fused and Odium are evil, so much so that they do not care about their forces beyond supplying them with an endless wave of helpless meat puppets. 

[Mailnaise she/her]

1 hour ago, Gasper said:

I concur, most of the people on both sides are not bad, they are just following orders and hoping to survive TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It). That is why Kaladin is having such a hard time fighting, he sees that most of the people fighting are not evil. There are genuinely good and evil people on Roshar. 

The next book, now that we know the Parshendi's justification for fighting, will really have to explore the moral implications of the war, and characters will have to make desicions on who they're going to fight for, etc.  People are really going to have to pick their sides. I'm looking forward to it. 

[Winds Alight she/her]

10 minutes ago, Mailnaise said:

The next book, now that we know the Parshendi's justification for fighting, will really have to explore the moral implications of the war, and characters will have to make desicions on who they're going to fight for, etc.  People are really going to have to pick their sides. I'm looking forward to it. 

This.

Also, I truly believe that "Unite them!" means not only uniting the humans of Roshar, but humans and listeners. Neither Fused nor Odium give two chips about the listeners as long as they get to go on their rampage to destroy humans. So most likely both sides have to get a grip on themselves and work together or all will be dead, in the end.
I believe Venli is beginning to see this by the end of OB.

[Mailnaise she/her]

53 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Also, I truly believe that "Unite them!" means not only uniting the humans of Roshar, but humans and listeners. Neither Fused nor Odium give two chips about the listeners as long as they get to go on their rampage to destroy humans. So most likely both sides have to get a grip on themselves and work together or all will be dead, in the end.
I believe Venli is beginning to see this by the end of OB.

That makes a lot of sense! The Parshendi have really got the short end of the stick for centuries. They were overrun by humans, and then came Odium turning some into fused and starting the desolations. Venli is definitely going to be the catalyst for that realization and subsequent changes in the war.

[dantlee]

On 12/17/2018 at 5:02 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

Agreed. This is in fact my main criticism of Brandons writing. Sometimes he does really funny characters really well (Lightsong, Breeze, Axies and Cody for example) and sometimes he makes characters whose comedy is so unrealistic it becomes bad (Lift, Sebarial, Lopen at times). Granted, the first one is way more common than the second, and the annoying characters are alright most of the time, but there are occasional scenes (Sebarial chilling in battle, Lift randomly showing up in Dalinars vision to talk about butts, the scene where Lopen becomes a Radiant) which bother me. 

Wow, not liking Lift is one of the hottest (and IMO worst) takes I've ever read on the shard. I think it fundamentally misunderstands her character, especially after Edgedancer - she is intentionally inane in really serious and dangerous situations because that's how she deals with trauma and fear, and also because she doesn't want to admit that she cares deeply about helping people. Her background - at least what little we know of it - is actually very similar to Vin's, she just has a very different way of coping.

Also, she's 13 - I was certainly making crude jokes at incredibly inappropriate times at that age, as I think most people were. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 hour ago, dantlee said:

Wow, not liking Lift is one of the hottest (and IMO worst) takes I've ever read on the shard. I think it fundamentally misunderstands her character, especially after Edgedancer - she is intentionally inane in really serious and dangerous situations because that's how she deals with trauma and fear, and also because she doesn't want to admit that she cares deeply about helping people. Her background - at least what little we know of it - is actually very similar to Vin's, she just has a very different way of coping.

Also, she's 13 - I was certainly making crude jokes at incredibly inappropriate times at that age, as I think most people were. 

I absolutely admit that I have trouble understanding and relating to her character, even though I enjoyed her in WoR and Edgedancer. However I do think that it is reasonable to be annoyed with her when she is being childish and pulling crude jokes. It also fails tonally, I think. Dalinars conversation with Odium was rather heavy and suddenly we got Lift out of nowhere with a butt joke. It doesn’t really fit in all times.

[Mailnaise she/her]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I absolutely admit that I have trouble understanding and relating to her character, even though I enjoyed her in WoR and Edgedancer. However I do think that it is reasonable to be annoyed with her when she is being childish and pulling crude jokes. It also fails tonally, I think. Dalinars conversation with Odium was rather heavy and suddenly we got Lift out of nowhere with a butt joke. It doesn’t really fit in all times.

I think we as readers were supposed to feel annoyed at her in that situation. Dalinar certainly would be and as we read we are supposed to connect to the characters are their feelings. Also, like @dantlee said, that's how she, as a 13 year old girl, deals with her experiences. 

[wotbibliophile]

1 hour ago, Mailnaise said:

I think we as readers were supposed to feel annoyed at her in that situation.

I don't agree. I wasn't annoyed with Lift in that scene. Of course, I really like Lift. But I don't think Dalinar was annoyed either. He was more surprised and confounded at her logic. The Stormfather was definitely  annoyed though. Maybe that was Sanderson taking into account how some readers would react to Lift and her inappropriateness.

[Mailnaise she/her]

6 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I don't agree. I wasn't annoyed with Lift in that scene. Of course, I really like Lift. But I don't think Dalinar was annoyed either. He was more surprised and confounded at her logic. The Stormfather was definitely annoyed though. Maybe that was Sanderson taking into account how some readers would react to Lift and her inappropriateness.

Okay well maybe annoyed wasn't the best choice of words. I guess I'm just saying her being too lighthearted in the situation was supposed to be really obvious, and I guess some people find that annoying? I don't really get it because Lift is honestly one of my favorite characters. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

I don’t really get all the Lift hate, especially in the scene where Odium shows up. She’s not my favorite character (though I think she might be become one of my favorites by the time we reach the back 5 and she’s older), but I still like her. And in that scene, after all the heavy stuff with Odium and Dalinar, we kind of needed that comedic relief right then. I didn’t feel it was over the top at all, honestly.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Hah, looks like I’m kinda lonely in my Lift critcism (I dont hate her, she has good moments as well). I guess I just find that she doesnt really fit in with the tone of all the scenes she is in. I do think I will like her more in the back five when she has matured a bit. Also, her jokes doesnt really work that well for me, but that is purely a personal opinion. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[TequilaJack]

Lift is the best written character in the series till date. She's just refreshing and so different from the repetitive hate/honor themes that premate every other major chapter. Sebarial follows close. 

A kid with powers....it's perfectly written and immensely enjoyable. 

My vote for best written character in series goes to Lift. 

[TousenShadowForged he/him]

I would love to see a book on the listener pov of when they help humanity and the eventual betrayal dealt to them 

[Mailnaise she/her]

 

On 12/20/2018 at 6:21 PM, TequilaJack said:

Lift is the best written character in the series till date. She's just refreshing and so different from the repetitive hate/honor themes that premate every other major chapter. Sebarial follows close. 

A kid with powers....it's perfectly written and immensely enjoyable. 

My vote for best written character in series goes to Lift. 

That's a bold claim. 

No, I agree that Lift is a fantastic character. Maybe not the best, or my favorite, but I mean this is a Sanderson story. There are soo many good ones. 

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

He's actually one of the few Highprinces who have character development. I really like him

[TequilaJack]

5 hours ago, Mailnaise said:

 

That's a bold claim. 

No, I agree that Lift is a fantastic character. Maybe not the best, or my favorite, but I mean this is a Sanderson story. There are soo many good ones. 

Yeah, it's a left field pick.

For me personally, Jasnah and Shallan deserve mention for being refreshing strong women characters. 

Lift and Sebarial are my favorite and by far the most fun, along with Syl.

Moash being one of the best antagonist characters I've read recently.

Everyone else pales.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 hour ago, TequilaJack said:

Yeah, it's a left field pick.

For me personally, Jasnah and Shallan deserve mention for being refreshing strong women characters. 

Lift and Sebarial are my favorite and by far the most fun, along with Syl.

Moash being one of the best antagonist characters I've read recently.

Everyone else pales.

I feel like Kaladin at least deserves an honorable mention. Like, even if you don’t really like him as a person, his depression is just written so well. It’s super easy, for me at least, to relate to his struggles with it. Plus, he’s awesome. And while he does have some prejudices (telling Lyn should be a scribe, or saying it’s weird that Drehy is gay), but he’s willing to work to change (letting Lyn train with Bridge Four, or his conversation with Rlain about what it’s like to be a Listener).

[Mailnaise she/her]

18 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I feel like Kaladin at least deserves an honorable mention. Like, even if you don’t really like him as a person, his depression is just written so well. It’s super easy, for me at least, to relate to his struggles with it. Plus, he’s awesome. And while he does have some prejudices (telling Lyn should be a scribe, or saying it’s weird that Drehy is gay), but he’s willing to work to change (letting Lyn train with Bridge Four, or his conversation with Rlain about what it’s like to be a Listener).

And I mean, no character is perfect! If they were they wouldn't be interesting to read. So Sebarial being who he is, Lift being sometimes annoying, etc, is one of the reasons Brandon is such a fantastic writer, which is why we're all here. 

[Ripheus23]

21 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

or saying it’s weird that Drehy is gay

It is kinda weird to be gay, I spend every day wondering why I'm a mutant without superpowers